Topic: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

hello friends,
i have problems of clicks and drops with samplitude (error asio buffer), but i have found that with other sequencers the problems are the same.
i have made an analysis with DPC and there is no problems, the histogram is always green, also when samplitude have clicks!
i use my fireface 800 with a HP compaq nx9420 workstation, all in this computer is texas instruments....
but i want to say that it has only 1 Gb of ram and intel core 2 CPU T5500 1,66 GHz. i work with windows xp pro service pack 3.

with samplitude at work i have found:

CPU usage: 38,2%

Hard disk Fujitsu MHW2120BH block size 64k:
transfert rate: minimum 3,7 MB/sec, maximum 40,3 MB/sec, avarage 28,2 MB/s
access time: 20,4 ms
burst rate: 62,2 MB/sec

RAM with paging file:
Physical memory available: 527
Physical memory used: 520
page file available: 1483
page file used: 522

considering with only 1 GB of ram i must use page file as we can see, and that the hard disk access time is 20 ms, and for audio it would be 9 ms, i ask you
if changing the internal hard disk and adding a 1 Gb of ram i could solve the problem of clicks. considering i think other problems are not possible if i see that DPC is ok
and my pc in all texas instruments...but i ask you,,,before put out money to update my notebook...

thanks a lot.

Alessandro.

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

Hello,

neither RAM size nor the drive should be an issue here. There is also no rule that says you need 9 ms access time for audio... I can record 64 channels on to a 80 gig 2.5" 5400 rpm USB 2.0 drive.

Your laptop is roughly comparable to my Acer, which works fine with the FF800. Have you tried this?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

hello Daniel, i have tried ALL!
all is disable: battery, wireless, bluetooth, internet connection..
the thing that is strange is that when i have the clicks and the error message in samplitude of lost asio buffer, DPC is always ok, always green hystogram!!!!
thanks a lot..i will think what to do.
Alex.

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

Have you tested other software? Since you don't require very low latency, try increasing latency in the FF settings and in the Samp system settings.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

What do you mean by "64 kb blocksize" for your harddrive? Clustersize? Why so big? This could be a culprit.

If you are using the full version of Samplitude you could try the high Priority switch in its settings. Maybe some other process if stealing CPU time when it's needed by Samplitude (even with 30-40% CPU load "only").

Using the pagefile is no problem unless Windows is *actively* paging data in/out to the file *while* you are doing your audio work. In that case you are spoiled = get more RAM. But before you start buying stuff: Do the dropouts occurs with only using effects that don't use any much RAM and HD access?

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

Timur wrote:

What do you mean by "64 kb blocksize" for your harddrive? Clustersize? Why so big? This could be a culprit.

I don't think so. The use of 64k cluster size is an old suggestion for the optimization of audio drives, said to make transfer faster or smoother... Small clusters mostly have an advantage of avoiding slack (unused space when operating with small files).

This being the system drive, I'd probably have chosen something slightly smaller, but it's unlikely to cause issues. I usually format my audio drives like that, too...


Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

thanks a lot.
i ve tried with cubase but the problem is the same. when i use WDM and not ASIO it seems that the problem is solved....
with ASIO, i have problems for example if i only open samplitude. only espanding and reducing the windows of samplitude i listen clicks and i have asio buffer error.
the same with cubase.
at the end of the week i will connect fireface 800 to an texas instruments PCMCIA in order to avoid using the 4 pin firewire port of my computer.
i will try also the pc in a more controlled environment to consider a possible electricity problem.

About:
Using the pagefile is no problem unless Windows is *actively* paging data in/out to the file *while* you are doing your audio work. In that case you are spoiled = get more RAM. But before you start buying stuff: Do the dropouts occurs with only using effects that don't use any much RAM and HD access?
i will install windows 7 in order to use latencymon to see if in the pagefaults report, samplitude appears.
i will put here the report of latencymon as soon as possible.
thanks a lot for the very good support.
Alessandro.

8 (edited by Timur 2011-02-07 23:49:38)

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

I'm not saying that 64 kb clusters are the culprit here, but they are an oddity for anything that is not reading/writing large files that catched my eye. 64 kb clusters are good for large file transfer, but if you are using lots of small samples or lots of simultaneous transfers they can be problematic. With larger clusters you are trading less I/O and overhead with large files for less bandwidth/longer I/O times for small files.

With that setup *any* read/write operation is 64 kb large, even if you are only reading 1 byte data, or let's say 4 kb which is more common (like paging file I/O). If for example you need to read 100 x 4 kb it turns into 100 x 64 kb reading. And since reading 64 kb takes longer than reading 4 kb the harddisc I/O takes longer which in turn might lead to the whole subsystem occupying more CPU/interrupt time.

Should the latter show up as DPC latency reading? No idea, but not all low level hardware I/O does. Take something as simple as pushing the "Brightness Up" button on my keyboard (or even just having the driver loaded with the older version of the keyboard driver): No DPC reading, but audible dropouts.

There are too little information about the setup here:

What audio buffer size is used?

How much RAM is used by Samplitude + loaded project?

Are sample-heavy plugins used? How many tracks are played/recorded?

What are the "real" DPC latencies ("green" is just an indicator, not a measurement)?

Does Samplitude offer an indicator for disc I/O overloads and/or settings for disc I/O buffer sizes?

9 (edited by fafalio 2011-02-09 01:52:50)

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

hello friends, here the analysis:

with only one stereo track in playback with a multiband dyn effect and 256 of buffer i find click moving windows and sliders of the plug in.

in samplitude i see:
DSP: 2%
disk: 3-4%
error asio buffer

in the fireface settings:
there are not errors.


in windows 7 monitor system
CPU: 55%
physical ram: 73%

in DPC software: around 500 millisecond of latency

in latencymon software:

highest DPC: 284
highest ISR: 42
no pagefaults in samplitude

my computer have all texas instruments chipset 1 giga of ram and core duo 2 with 1,66 Hz.

based on this analysis, do you find something strange in order to explain my click audition?

thanks Alessandro.

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

If Samplitude is only saying 2% CPU, then what is causing a CPU load of 55%...? HeadScratch
That might well be causing the problem... What other software have you got running?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

i have just made a test.
it was latencymon to put CPU at 55%.
closing latencymon the computer is working with samplitude at very low CPU loaded (around 20% with a project not small...).
samplitude is the only software installed in the notebook after a fresh windows 7 installation.
if considering the test i have made it can't be neither CPU, RAM or hard disk, considering all is chipset TI, for me it is all very strange...
i will test this notebook in another house, to see if it could be electricity problems in my house...and if the problem follows i will try another notebook. but for me it is very frustrating changing a notebook that in the charateristics is all perfect for audio. if now i would think to a computer for audio, i would think to high HP series, considering HP works in collaboration with TI.
rotfl
thanks to all for the help.
Alessandro.

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

hardware rivision is 2.77.....trying an downgrade?

13 (edited by fafalio 2011-02-09 21:57:27)

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

i have found the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:-)
my sister has an amatorial maudio fasttrack usb soundcard.
i have just tried it.
i have put it to 128 sample (the maximum it can reeach) with a very big project in samp and a lot of plug in moving the slider...
NO PROBLEMS!!All is perfect.
i hope it is problem with the small 4 pin firewire connection of my hp.
on the other hand at the end of the week i will try a PCMCIA firewire card with TI chispet in my pc.
i hope this will solve all..or the problem is in the RME fireface.
thanks Alessandro.

14 (edited by fafalio 2011-02-09 22:47:52)

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

REVISION.
after 30 minutes of works maudio started to have the same problems of clicks, now also at 1024 in the same project where before all was ok
at 128 sample!!!!
excuse, it can't be the RME at this point, but generally i think i could speak about an instability of my pc.
at this point it seems clear the true problem is the notebook.
thanks to all again for the patience.
bye
Alessandro.

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

for the benefit of people with problems similar to mine...
i have update the ram to 3 giga but clicks again. the upgrade of RAM din't solved problems.
then i have solved all my problems and now my HP is a rock solid DAW with NEVER an asio lost buffer by upgrading the hard disk from an hitachi 5400 rpm to a segate momentus 7200 rpm.
best regards,
Alessandro.

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

What about the raid? Do you still use it with the new harddrive?

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

i have installed the "storage intel rapid" for the motherboard.
i have installed the driver of the graphic board.
disable battery, ethernet, wireless and all the common things for optimization.
i have not made any change in the BIOS. all is at default settings with SATA enabled.
about RAID i don t know what it means..excuse me.
all above mentioned was also made before changing the hard disk, but without solving the problems of clicks.
the problems of clicks was solved changing the har disk.
i have to say that in samplitude manual they not give importance to RAM or CPU, but they raccomand a MINIMUM fo 7200 rpm with 9ms or less of access time.
my segate is 11 ms of access time, but it works very well.
Alessandro.

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

Sorry, mixed up the 64k block-size with Raid stuff. Forget about it. Are you still using the 64k block-size then?

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

General Information                                                             
Drive Controller:                                                               Serial ATA 3Gb/s
Drive Model:                                                                    Seagate ST9500420AS
Drive Revision:                                                                 0002SDM1
Drive Serial Number:                                                            5VJAFL36
Drive Capacity:                                                                 476,940 MBytes (500 GB)
Media Rotation Rate:                                                            7200 RPM

Drive Geometry                                                                 
Number of Cylinders:                                                            16383
Number of Heads:                                                                16
Sectors Per Track:                                                              63
Bytes Per Sector:                                                               Unknown
Bytes Per Track:                                                                Unknown
Number Of ECC Bytes:                                                            4
Number of Sectors:                                                              16513875
Total 32-bit LBA Sectors:                                                       268435455
Total 48-bit LBA Sectors:                                                       976773168
Cache Buffer Size:                                                              16384 KBytes
Controller Type:                                                                Not Specified

Transfer Modes                                                                 
Sectors Per Interrupt:                                                          Total: 16, Active: 16
Max. PIO Transfer Mode:                                                         4
Multiword DMA Mode:                                                             Total: 2, Active: -
Singleword DMA Mode:                                                            Total: -, Active: -
Ultra-DMA Mode:                                                                 Total: 6 (ATA-133), Active: 6 (ATA-133)
Max. Multiword DMA Transfer Rate:                                               16.7 MBytes/s
Max. PIO with IORDY Transfer Rate:                                              16.7 MBytes/s
Max. PIO w/o IORDY Transfer Rate:                                               16.7 MBytes/s
Transfer Width:                                                                 16-bit
Native Command Queuing:                                                         Supported, Max. Depth: 32
TRIM Command:                                                                   Not Supported

Device flags                                                                   
Fixed Drive:                                                                    Present
Removable Drive:                                                                Not Present
Magnetic Storage:                                                               Present
LBA Mode:                                                                       Supported
DMA Mode:                                                                       Supported
IORDY:                                                                          Supported
IORDY Disableable:                                                              Supported

Features                                                                       
Write Cache:                                                                    Present, Active
S.M.A.R.T. Feature:                                                             Present, Active
Security Feature:                                                               Present, Inactive
Removable Media Feature:                                                        Not Present, Disabled
Power Management:                                                               Present, Active
Advanced Power Management:                                                      Present, Active
Packet Interface:                                                               Not Present, Disabled
Look-Ahead Buffer:                                                              Present, Active
Host Protected Area:                                                            Present, Enabled
Power-Up In Standby:                                                            Not Suppported, Inactive
Automatic Acoustic Management:                                                  Supported, Active
48-bit LBA:                                                                     Supported, Active

Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology                             
Raw Read Error Rate:                                                            118/6, Worst: 99 (Data = 195966000)
Spin Up Time:                                                                   98/85, Worst: 98
Start/Stop Count:                                                               100/20, Worst: 100 (Data = 11)
Reallocated Sector Count:                                                       100/36, Worst: 100
Seek Error Rate:                                                                100/30, Worst: 253 (Data = 290667)
Power-On Hours/Cycle Count:                                                     100/Always OK, Worst: 100 (Data = 7)
Spin Retry Count:                                                               100/97, Worst: 100
Power Cycle Count:                                                              100/20, Worst: 100 (Data = 10)
End to End Error Detection Count:                                               100/99, Worst: 100
Reported Uncorrectable Errors:                                                  100/Always OK, Worst: 100
Command Timeout:                                                                100/Always OK, Worst: 100
High Fly Writes                                                                 100/Always OK, Worst: 100
Airflow Temperature / Exceed Count:                                             78/45, Worst: 62 (Data = 22.0 °C)
G-Sense Error Rate:                                                             100/Always OK, Worst: 100
Power-Off Retract Count:                                                        100/Always OK, Worst: 100 (Data = 1)
Load/Unload Cycle Count:                                                        100/Always OK, Worst: 100 (Data = 154)
Temperature                                                                     22/Always OK, Worst: 40 (Data = 22.0 °C)
Hardware ECC Recovered:                                                         48/Always OK, Worst: 48 (Data = 195966000)
Current Pending Sector Count:                                                   100/Always OK, Worst: 100
Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count:                                            100/Always OK, Worst: 100
UltraDMA/SATA CRC Error Rate:                                                   200/Always OK, Worst: 200
Head Flying Hours:                                                              100/Always OK, Worst: 253 (Data = 6)
Lifetime Writes from Host:                                                      100/Always OK, Worst: 253 (Data = -1446878101)
Lifetime Reads from Host:                                                       100/Always OK, Worst: 253 (Data = 1862965823)
Free Fall Protection:                                                           100/Always OK, Worst: 100

20 (edited by fafalio 2011-03-31 07:01:16)

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

this is the info from INFO32 software.
i don t remenber where i found the info about 64k block size with the other hard disk...sorry.
i have made a standard window 7 installation..i don t know nothing about cluster size and so on....
on the other hand now the system is ok, so i will leave it as now it is.
for information, where do you select the cluster size during installation? so you use little cluster size?
Alessandro.

Re: fireface 800, DPC is ok but clicks and drops

Standard installation with standard format will use 4 kb cluster size. That means that every I/O will at least read/write 4 kb. With 64 kb clusters every small I/O (even just a single byte) will read/write 64 kb.