• Registered: 2013-02-23
  • Posts: 10

Topic: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

Hi, this is a clocking/connection question:
My thrusty old 24d is dedicated to my Kyma Pacarana, and the UCX as my mac/ableton-interface.
Analog inputs into UCX plus instruments from ableton is sent to 24d via adat, and I send the results from processing in kyma back into UCX via adat in order to save some conversion-time and using the many analog outputs on the UCX as my main analog outs for the complete system...
I've tried setting UCX to internal clock and 24 d to adat and vica versa, with the same results-occasional dropouts. I guess this is due to the "adat-loop"?
Since there is no word clock on the 24 d but  SPDIF, should I use the latter as clocking source for the 24d? Would that be sufficient?
I would be grateful for any qualified pointer in the right direction ;-)

Regards

Audun Kleive
Drummer
Norway

  • From: Frankfurt, Germany
  • Registered: 2011-03-23
  • Posts: 56

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

Hello Audun,

I am using what you call an "ADAT Loop", where 2 systems are connected through ADAT both ways, and the one system clocks the other one via ADAT-In. No drop-outs, rock-solid. However, on both ends, I have rme gear.

I used to have much problem with this setup though, and in my casse, it turned out to be optical cable problems.

I used to use Toslink connectors in the back of my racks, connecting a Toslink cable on the inside of the rack to one which would be plugged in from the outside to go to the other rack. So I had 2 Toslink connectors in-between each ADAT connection. This turned out to be a really unreliable, bad way of making the connections.

Also, I occasionally used optical cables too Long (> 5 m), which also caused problems.

Regards, Mikael

2 DAWs, each C 7/64, W7/64, Dell Prec. T5500 (2 x X5690), 2 x rme HDSPe / Multiface II / Octamic II
  • Registered: 2013-02-23
  • Posts: 10

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

Hi Mikael,
Thanks for your reply. however-I have (as of yesterday) completely fresh toslink-cables...both about half a metre...I couldn't locate any coaxial in my suitcase though, hence the question. If syncing 24d to spdif is a viable option I will go and get one today.
Dropouts are occasional, mostly the "Fireface USB Settings"-window reports Sync, but sometimes the state-led on the UCX blinks and reports "lock"...
Both interfaces are set to 48 kHz...

Unfortunately, regarding rme on both sides, kyma does not as of today support rme interfaces, supposedly due to some secret rme-stuff...

Best regards
Audun

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,560

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

ADAT sync should work fine, SPDIF won't improve it as such. Also, sync problem will usually cause clicks etc., but not dropouts. Can you provide samples?

Not sure what "secret RME-stuff" you might be referring to...


regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

5 Reply by akbatteristen (edited by akbatteristen 2013-02-23 13:27:49)

  • Registered: 2013-02-23
  • Posts: 10

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

Daniel,
thanks for your reply.
Rephrasing; clicks is correct -I have no dropouts. Ok, so this means internal clock on UCX and adat on 24d is the correct setting? But the led blinks from time to time, and at those moments sometimes I hear small clicks...
I can't really figure out the meaning behind the word "lock" as opposed to sync...does lock mean only that the interface " see" the adat connection? Does the flashing led indicate something wrong?
The user manual states " For example any self-clocking will not work in a loop cabling, when there is no 'master' (main clock) inside the loop", so I thought maybe this was what I did wrong?



Regarding secrets, probably a strange thing to say and not at all meant in a bad way, but since rme and metric halo have never been among kyma's supported interfaces me and some other users of that system assumed there was some " industrial secret" reason for this....
Since you both make such great interfaces, it is a little strange...I will ask at Symbolic Sound...

Best regards

Audun

6 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
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  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 24,902

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

You can try the other way round just to see if that solves the problem: UFX on ADAT as clock source, D24 on internal.

Also you could check if the clicks are content related, means no signal lets the Sync stay solid?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2013-02-23
  • Posts: 10

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

Seems it is content related, yes...light stays solid when I don't send a signal...this is when UCX is in internal mode....
Exactly the same the other way around(24d to internal, UCX to "optical" )

  • Registered: 2013-02-23
  • Posts: 10

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

New discovery which also seems to solve the problem: I changed both to 44.1 (previously all was 48 kHz) ableton settings follows UCX.
Now the led blinks only as audio dies out or starts coming in...otherwise solid. And in these "blinking moments" I don't hear any clicks...

Strange? 48 k too much for 24d, perhaps ;

9 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
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  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 24,902

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

Does the UCX show Lock instead of Sync when the D24 sends audio, or is the D24 LED blinking when the UFX sends audio?

When the UCX fails with content then the ADAT signal (from the D24) might have too much jitter. Or the TOSLINK receiver in the UCX is not working as expected.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2013-02-23
  • Posts: 10

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

Seems like problem is solved here:
When I send audio from ableton and return it untreated from kyma(maybe this was stupid,but I just wanted to check that audio passed through ok) the led blinks and I have clicks , but as soon as any kind of processing is done on the signal (inside kyma), audio returns with no issues..also in 48 kHz...
Lesson learned, although I do not understand why...
On the other hand, Kyma is hardly meant to be merely a patch bay....


Thanks for a great product: it is proved to me now that the latency, both on the UCX and on customer support, is groundbreaking low ";-)

The very best of regards

Audun

  • Registered: 2013-02-23
  • Posts: 10

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

I was probably a bit quick, some processes inside kyma makes the problem arise again, and so I guess it is something I have to figure out with the kyma-people.

Thanks again.

Audun

12 Reply by MC

  • MC
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  • Registered: 2007-04-06
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Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

If the audio content makes the clock problem then it is nothing Kyma can fix. It would be a hardware error in the D24 or the UCX. Any audio could do that then, just take the right signal with the same sample rate, bit depth and content, and you're screwed...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2013-02-23
  • Posts: 10

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

Small thing: for some reason the included optical cable was difficult to insert into the adat in-port on the UCX, and the plastic shield covering the hole broke and fell into the unit...afterwards it is quite the opposite, very loose connection...is this a problem?

To further investigate if my 24d is the weak link, I'm about to order a motu track 16 to replace it, since symbolic sound does not support the Babyface, and I can not find any other suitable small footprint interface with adat I/o...

I will report back as soon as I have tested this.

Regards

Audun

14 Reply by akbatteristen (edited by akbatteristen 2013-02-27 18:48:36)

  • Registered: 2013-02-23
  • Posts: 10

Re: Adat connections between UCX and TC 24d

Just to finish this thread; I received a Motu Track 16 today-hooked it up to Kyma instead of the TC 24d, and that made the clock-problem history. I'm also lucky enough to not have to use the enormous breakout-cable, power comes from FW and all audio through adat io...!!
I must say the flexibility of the totalmix is absolutely fantastic, all the possible routing between ableton/max4live/kyma... frakkin' fabulous!!

Matthias, I had quite some mailing going on with Carla Scaletti ( the designer of Kyma), she had a couple of sayings and some questions that I patch on to you...

Q:.....but is there any particular reason why you don't support rme-for instance the incredible small and light Babyface?
A: Everybody loves the RMEs for sure!  The only reason we cannot support their devices is that they use a proprietary AVC streaming protocol (to achieve their lower latency).  But since it is proprietary we cannot write a driver for the Pacarana (without knowing the protocol).

I quoted you: "If the audio content makes the clock problem then it is nothing Kyma can fix. It would be a hardware error in the D24 or the UCX. Any audio could do that then, just take the right signal with the same sample rate, bit depth and content, and you're screwed...
Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Her return:   I wonder if he is saying that certain combinations or sequences of clock values can cause it to lose sync? Or he knows that some sequences of numbers in the audio input signal can cause it to not be able to lock onto the clock?


Ok, for now, that's it"  About fuc...' time I get DOWN to make some music!!!


All the best

Audun