1 (edited by Fredo 2015-06-23 13:11:22)

Topic: MADI Router - It's official, I am missing crucial brain cells.

I tried over and over again, but I can’t get my brain to understand the routing functionality of the MADI Router.
I would be very grateful if someone would give me a hand.

Here’s the setup:
Computer of Room 1 is connected via Fiber to Madi Router in/out A.
DAD X32 is connected via coax to Router in/out A
The DAD X32 only has 16 I/O’s, so I want to route the remaining MADI channels of my computer to a ADI648 which is placed in the machine room. (Link to TC6000’s and Lex960)


So, I want channels 1 to 16 (DAD) to be routed:
Source Fibre A 1-16  => Destination Coax A 1-16  and Source Coax A 1-16 => Destination Fibre A 1-16.

In addition to that, I want channels 17 to 64 to be routed to the ADI648.
Source Fibre A 17-64  => Destination Coax C 17-64  and Source Coax C 17-64 => Destination Fibre A 17-64.

I simply can’t get this to work.
When I create my Matrixes, it seems like they are living a life of their own. Routings change for no reason, etc …

Would someone help me out please?
(Using the latest firmware 1.33b)

Best regards
Fredo

Re: MADI Router - It's official, I am missing crucial brain cells.

In your case, it would be better to connect the DAD to port A, the ADI 648 to port B and to create a stream on port C.

Bertrand Allaume

3 (edited by Fredo 2015-06-23 14:19:51)

Re: MADI Router - It's official, I am missing crucial brain cells.

Is this some other way of saying that it is impossible to "split" a MADI stream?

Anyway, I can't, because pretty much all the ports are taken'.

Fibre A = Computer Room 1
Fibre B = Computer Room 2
Fibre C = Computer Room 3
Fibre D = Computer Room 4
Coax A = DAD Room 1
Coax B = 648 Room 2
Coax C = 648 Control Room
Coax D = 648 Room 4

The only I/O's on The MADI router that are left are the 4 (A,B,C,D) RJ45 connectors, but I don't have any hardware for those.

In addition to that, the routing which I am failing to make it work, is only the first step in an even more complex routing scheme.
The TC's and Lex should be available in 3 rooms, on the smae channels.
And in addition to that one digital port should be available on all computers so they can be VST-System linked.
But these are worries for later. smile

Fredo

4 (edited by Max 2015-06-25 07:40:43)

Re: MADI Router - It's official, I am missing crucial brain cells.

When I create my Matrixes, it seems like they are living a life of their own.

Well, they do have a life of their own. All four available matrices can, for example, be clocked individually. Routings shouldn't change for no reason - if you've made yourself familiar with the manual, it should be quite straight forward.

it is impossible to "split" a MADI stream?

It is possible.

The TC's and Lex should be available in 3 rooms, on the smae channels.

What happens with the 648 in Room 2 and Room 4?

Fredo wrote:

one digital port should be available on all computers so they can be VST-System linked.

I haven't used System Link, however I will try to integrate it.

1. In the router transparency settings, "activate MADI receiver" and "pass subframes". The MADI receivers should always be switched on, else the matrices won't work. Passing or creating new subframes doesn't matter in the RME world, however when other manufacturers' signals are involved, it may be of use to keep their frame architecture.

2. Decide who's clock master. A MADI Router can only be clock master within its matrices and at the word clock output (it is clock agnostic when complete MADI streams are routed, they always keep their own clock). I would therefore suggest to make the 648 at Coax C the clock master for everything, and clock the MADI matrices as follows in the "Matrix Clocking" setting for all four matrices:
Source: Coax C, Rate: 44.1 or 48k (I'll only cover single speed here because I assume that it's what you are using), S/MUX: Off, Channels: 64.

3. Clock all hardware devices to the MADI Router. If the 648 at Coax C is up and running, clocked to internal, it sends out a MADI signal to the Coax C input. In order to ensure that all devices are set up and synchronized correctly (four computers, DAD, and the remaining 648s), we do a preliminary STREAM routing from Coax C to all of those outputs. First move the output cursor to each port and then apply the routing by moving the input cursor to Coax C each time. Now all of your devices should receive a valid MADI signal.

Configure the devices and software (see VST system manual) to be properly synced to the incoming MADI signals. The TC&Lex should be synced to ADAT or WCL IN if you connect the 648 WCL OUT to them.

4. Change the stream routing to match your needs.
Move output cursor to Coax A, assign input Fibre A. No need for a matrix here.
Move output cursor to Coax C, assign input Fibre A. No need for a matrix here either.
This way, both 648 and DAD get the same signal, but the DAD will only care about the first 16 channels and you use the matrix on the 648 to only care about ch. 17-64.

5. Now the matrices:

The TCs and Lex should be available in 3 rooms, on the same channels.

I don't understand that. The TCs and Lex can only RECEIVE their input signal from ONE computer at each port, or do you have a set of TCs and Lex for each room that are connected to the other two ADI648? Of course the returns from TC/LEX can be sent to all four computers.

Anyhow, the procedure to split and distribute signals with matrices is like this:

Think output first, then assign source signal to it. Just like you set up the stream routings above, you move the output cursor to Computer 1 and think about which signal should be routed to it. You want 16 Channels from Coax A and 48 Channels from Coax C. So you move the output encoder to Fibre 1 and then rotate the input Encoder until MX.1 pops up (Matrix 1). Within the matrix, same concept, select output 1-8, assign Coax A 1-8, GANG one step with the out encoder to continue the next 8 channels, then assign output 17-24 from input Coax C [whatever channels you set up in the 648 matrix], GANG all the way to 64, done. The manual describes the procedure in detail.

This way, Computer 1 receives 1-16 from DAD and 17-64 from 648, while both devices receive the output signal from the Computer 1.

Now concerning your daisy-chain for VST, you'll have to draw a proper plan. Basically, each of the four computers needs its own matrix, so MX1 for Fibre A (already have that), MX2 for Fibre B, MX3 for Fibre C and MX4 for Fibre D.

Steinberg wrote:

  The main thing to remember is that VST System Link is a daisy chain system. In other words, the output of Computer 1 goes to the input of Computer 2, the output of Computer 2 goes to the input of Computer 3, and so on around the chain. The output of the last computer in the chain must always go back into the input of Computer 1, to complete the ring.

As the Steinberg manual also states, you should try with two devices first and make sure it is running before you blame the MADI Router ;-).

In order to change the cursor size in the matrices (default is 8 channel, but for VST you only need two channels), you hold the ROUTE button and turn the IN encoder to set it to two channels.

Then, thinking output first again, and assuming that you have set up your VST Link to send and receive on Ch. 63+64 in each of the four workstations, in Matrix 1: output 63/64 from Fibre D 63/64, Matrix 2: output 63/64 from Fibre A 63/64, Matrix 3: output 63/64 from Fibre B 63/64 and Matrix 4: output 63/64 from Fibre C 63/64. Since Matrix 1 goes to Fibre A, Computer 1 will now receive the outgoing VST Link signal from Computer 4. Since Matrix 2 goes to Fibre B, Computer 2 will now receive the outgoing VST Link signal from Computer 1. And so on.

Once you understood how this works it is actually quite simple and I'm sure you'll be able to patch whatever TC or LEX to the correct channels of the work stations. However if you want the 648 to also receive a matrix (for example to set up 4 stereo reverbs on the Lex960 and giving each Computer acccess to one machine on the same channel), you must do a workaround, for example by using the 648 matrices.

Best regards,
Max

5 (edited by Fredo 2015-06-25 16:50:30)

Re: MADI Router - It's official, I am missing crucial brain cells.

Max,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to look into this. Appreciated.
Let me first answer your questions.

Regarding clocking, all devices are hooked up to the same House Clock. Rosendahls all over the place.

What happens with the 648 in Room 2 and Room 4?

They are connected to the computers 2 and 4.
(Computer 3 is the second DAW in the main room 1)


First of all, I had no problem whatsoever to connect the 3 rooms to the 3 DAW’s.
Computer 1 to DAD Room 1
Computer 2 to 648 Room 2
Computer 3 to 648 Machine Room
Computer 4 to 648 Room 4
That worked fine.


My “problem” started when I wanted to devide I/O of Computer 1 between the DAD and the 648 Machine Room.
I think I now see the problem, but I have a very hard time getting my brain to work that way. smile

Here’s what In had done; my reasoning.
-A Matrix can “split and/or merge” MADI any incoming signals to an output.
-As soon as you create a Matrix, the direct routing is “broken”, and doesn’t exist anymore.
Therefore all needed –specific- routings need to be dialed into the Martrix-es.

So, I created a Matrix on Fibre A (to computer 1) and routed the channels 1-16 from Coax A (DAD) and the following channels from Coax C (TC & Lex). That took care of my signals send to the computer. Etc …

From what you are saying, I seem to understand that the Matrixes are not acting as a patchbay, but that the Matrixes are actually superposed on the basic routing. Is my reasoning correct?

I don't understand that. The TCs and Lex can only RECEIVE their input signal from ONE computer at each port, or do you have a set of TCs and Lex for each room that are connected to the other two ADI648?

The idea is to be able to use the TC6000 and the Lexicon 960 is following:
I know that the machines need to get their input from “a” machine.
The idea is by loading another preset, the machines are “assigned” to a room.
Or even using one machine in one room, and the other in another room.
Or even split the engines (each machine has 4 in stereo, 2 in Surround) over the different rooms.
But basically, its “or-or” by switching presets on the MADI Matrix.


As far as VST link is concerned, the main use is to hook up Computers 1 and 3 together, since they are used in the same room (1) and are connected to the same Nuage controller. Hooking up the two other is pure luxury. smile
But thanks for your in-depth explanation, I will try it as soon as I have 5 minutes.

In the meantime, I have successfully hooked up the TC and Lex (and a few other devices in the Machine Room) with Computer 1.

Your 4th point made me see the problem. “This way, both 648 and DAD get the same signal …”
I was thinking “patchbay”, which it isn’t. It's an extra layer.
Unless I misunderstood again ….

Thanks again.
Fredo

Re: MADI Router - It's official, I am missing crucial brain cells.

Fredo wrote:

From what you are saying, I seem to understand that the Matrixes are not acting as a patchbay, but that the Matrixes are actually superposed on the basic routing. Is my reasoning correct?

I was thinking “patchbay”, which it isn’t. It's an extra layer.

Correct. The four matrices are in between the inputs and outputs ("a layer above the outputs") and can be assigned to any number of physical outputs. Each of them is a little 768 to 64 audio channel patchbay.

You cannot split signals with one matrix because each matrix stands for one new MADI signal which consists of one or more channels from different MADI streams. Splitting of streams is usually not very important anyhow because the receivers will choose which channels they need. In other words: for a real "split" procedure, one signal of 64 channels would be routed to two matrices, and within each matrix only the important channels are "extracted". Each matrix is then sent to a different output. But you might as well send the complete source stream instead and let the final receiver do the channel selection itself.

I think it can all be set up the way you need it.

7 (edited by Fredo 2015-06-26 07:52:23)

Re: MADI Router - It's official, I am missing crucial brain cells.

Max,

That makes sense, although in my mind it still doesn't. (But I have more of these quirks)
Don't get me wrong here, I am not starting an argument ... just trying to point out, what I think, is a problem.

According the manual, we should think in terms of traditional routing matrixes.
You can see where I was put on the wrong foot, in a traditional Routing Matrix, you chose any input (or none) to be routed to any output. This MADI Router Matrix requires a totaly different way of thinking. Hence my confusion.

Maybe I am overlooking important user cases, but wouldn't it be more logical if the user was able to assign *no* input to the chosen output? In fact, muting a bunch of inputs that run into a Matrix? You would have the best of both worlds ....

Anyway, just trying to help.
The most important thing is that I can move on, and configure my setup as I planned.

Once again, thanks for your help.
Really appreciated.

Fredo

Re: MADI Router - It's official, I am missing crucial brain cells.

Fredo wrote:

wouldn't it be more logical if the user was able to assign *no* input to the chosen output? In fact, muting a bunch of inputs that run into a Matrix?

It is possible. You can assign 'no input' to any physical output or to any channel of a matrix (except channel 1) by turning the [IN] encoder all the way to the left.

Within matrices, there is one restriction, that is that the first channel always has to be mapped. The reason for this is that when the matrix clocking is set to 'automatic', the clock is extracted from the source signal that is mapped to the first output channel.

Max