Topic: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

Somehow, I've let myself into the (admittedly) pretty expensive experiment to switch my UFX+ from USB3 to Thunderbolt on Windows 10.  i7-7700K @ ASUS Z170-A mobo with ASUS ThunderboltEX3 card and TB3 to TB2 adapter from Apple. It worked perfectly fine on USB3 and it works almost perfectly fine on Thunderbolt, too. I just hoped I'd get noticeably better performance out of this configuration but it feels just about the same - not like '~200 euros better'... wink

Anyways; sometimes the Fireface doesn't get recognized after a cold start of the machine (around 1 out of 5 starts). Switching the UFX+ OFF and ON again helps in those cases. There are a lot Thunderbolt settings in the Bios for the Z170-A of which I have no idea what they do but maybe someone from RME has some hints that might help to solve this problem?!


http://img4web.com/i/9OH56.jpg

2

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

To improve recognition on boot I would set the 'Interface format' directly at the UFX+ from Auto to TB.

I am pretty sure none of the BIOS settings could change performance. Simply set them to default.

The main difference between USB and TB comes at higher system load - many channels and plug-ins. Then TB should be able to reach a lower latency (usually one buffer size less).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

3 (edited by knuckle47 2017-06-02 03:44:13)

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

Boy o boy that bios screen look way too familiar as I've been down that road so many times since upgrading my computer to accommodate RME Thunderbolt connectivity.  The difference I have is the Z270 chipset and current bios version of 0906.  With this, all I needed to be sure of was that under the thunderbolt bios page, Thunderbolt was enabled and down the line that the correct slot for the first EX3 was identified ( which I see you did)  Those are the only changes I'd made and it is perfect.  Having read a few lines about the Apple adapter, I went with MC's recommendation and went with the Startech. Velcroed it right to the rear of the case and use a 9' cable.  Never have had failed starts I also do not have the Thunderbolt USB support enabled

Are you running the Thunderbolt software from ASUS?

Babyface Pro, UFX+ via Thunderbolt, Win 10, Cubase 9.5 Pro, Asus Z270 i7700k Guitarist-1961

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

MC wrote:

To improve recognition on boot I would set the 'Interface format' directly at the UFX+ from Auto to TB.

I am pretty sure none of the BIOS settings could change performance. Simply set them to default.

The main difference between USB and TB comes at higher system load - many channels and plug-ins. Then TB should be able to reach a lower latency (usually one buffer size less).

As far as I remember I didn't change anything else apart from turning TB on in bios.

Unfortunately this unit is also used for location recording on a laptop with USB3 and I need it to connect automatically to whatever I plug it in.

Higher system load for what? USB or TB? It's not clear to me the way you put it.

knuckle47 wrote:

Are you running the Thunderbolt software from ASUS?

I just installed the Intel Thunderbolt drivers from the ASUS mobo support site and now I have this small blue TB icon in the task tray. Is this what you're referring to?

5 (edited by knuckle47 2017-06-03 02:24:01)

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

Yes, that is it!.... Did your Thunderbolt startup ask if you " always connect" to the UFX+ ?

Particularly, the install sequence on my end...was that it DID have recognition problems for the very first initialization but once I pulled the cable out of the adapter, restarted and plugged it back in...it connects every time after selecting that option.

Babyface Pro, UFX+ via Thunderbolt, Win 10, Cubase 9.5 Pro, Asus Z270 i7700k Guitarist-1961

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

> Higher system load for what? USB or TB? It's not clear to me the way you put it.

ASIO buffer size can not be 32 buffers for all types of project.
If you use a higher sample rate you need bigger buffers.
If your CPU is under stress (by big project or one with CPU hungry VSTs) you also need bigger buffers.

All is about whether the CPU does it get managed to perform the i/o tasks in time.

For this reason many people tune their PC so that the CPU cores are not doing useless stuff.
This gives the CPU cores more headroom to be able to process all in time without audio loss.

The USB protocol usually is know to have more overhead compared to PCIe.

So if you have a high Project / CPU load on your system then it it could be,
that you require with thunderbolt only an ASIO buffersize of 128 buffers,
where you might require with USB3 maybe 256 ASIO buffers.

Thunderbolt has PCIe speed.

From the pure latency values between USB3 and Thunderbolt you dont see significant latency difference.
But under a heavily loaded systems its much likely (never tested it on my own), that Thunderbolt
works more efficient so that you can works potentially with lower ASIO buffer sizes.

And if you can use lower ASIO buffer sizes, then you have less latency end-to-end between
Recording interface and DAW on your PC ...

In such discussions btw always carefull .. LatencyMOn i.e. measures another latency than
the latency which is being reported by the RME driver to Cubase.

There is also a latency inside of Windows inside of the kernel, how agile the CPU can react / work
on the processes and threads. If there are i.e. drivers that occupy the CPU for too long and if
on this core/thread also an audio process is running, then this narrows the ability of the CPU
to process audio in time (without loss, clicks, pops), especially if the system is under stress.
This you can only resolve by tuning your system and by using higher ASIO buffer sizes.

And thunderbolt shall have the benefit - as it equal PCIe performance - to perform better
in higher load szenarios compared to USB. Although I could not see this big difference in my projects.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

7 (edited by fripholm 2017-06-09 10:33:27)

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

MC wrote:

To improve recognition on boot I would set the 'Interface format' directly at the UFX+ from Auto to TB.

Matthias, just for testing I've set this to TB and it changes nothing. Sometimes the unit still won't get recognized.

But I was able to isolate 'sometimes' a bit more precisely. I usually turn my whole rig (including computer, interface, outboard, screens, speakers etc.) on/off using only one switched AC plugboard. Whenever AC was completely off (including FF), the system loads the Fireface just fine. OTOH, when the computer was shut down, but AC had not been turned off (UFX+ and other gear is still on), then the driver won't load upon Windows start-up/host LED won't light up. In this case, the FF needs to be turned off and back on again.

This does not happen on USB3, only Thunderbolt...

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

You can isolate if it is the Fireface or the computer causing this by leaving the power on the Fireface and removing power from the computer. If it then is recognised it is the computer that needs the full shutdown. If it is still not recognised it is the fireface that is left in a strange state after the shut down.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

vinark wrote:

You can isolate if it is the Fireface or the computer causing this by leaving the power on the Fireface and removing power from the computer. If it then is recognised it is the computer that needs the full shutdown. If it is still not recognised it is the fireface that is left in a strange state after the shut down.

Thanks, great tip! Unfortunately, the results are not as distinct as it seems hmm

When removing power from the computer, the Fireface won't load - 100% reproducible. According to vinark's post, that would leave the FF as the culprit.

BUT: When shutting down the PC leaving its AC on, and turning the Fireface OFF and ON again (prior to PC power-up), the UFX+ won't load as well - 100% reproducible.

Only when everything was switched off, the Fireface loads fine. This led me to have a look at the advanced power options in the BIOS and just for giggles I disabled 'ErP ready', which was set to S4 + S5.

EUREKA! Now the white host LED on the UFX stays lit after shutting down the PC and it loads correctly upon re-start - every time. YAY!

Maybe the UFX+ in TB mode doesn't play nicely with either the S4 or S5 states?!

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

Good work!  So both seem to be in a state they can't get out of.  Is this solution ok for you?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

11 (edited by fripholm 2017-06-10 11:39:00)

Re: Windows 10 Thunderbolt and UFX+

vinark wrote:

Is this solution ok for you?

Somewhat...

Just a couple minutes ago - everything was turned off for about an hour - the UFX was not recognized on startup again, although the host LED was on. It's working now after another re-start, maybe just a hickup...

At the moment I wouldn't call this a reliable solution but time will tell wink