1 (edited by jiw 2018-11-11 17:26:33)

Topic: Odd jumps during volume change

When changing the volume using the volume knob, occasionally, there is a jump up or down in the displayed volume irrespective of the direction of desired volume change.

This is most easily detected when the volume changes are displayed as 0.5 dB steps. In this case, the jumps are 1.5 dB.
However, it is also detectable during quicker volume changes, i.e. quicker rotation of the knob, but in this case, the jumps may be of different magnitude.


The device is the DAC, USB Firmware is revision 25, DSP Firmware is revision 23 and USB Fallback is revision 10.

2 (edited by mmm 2018-11-17 01:31:57)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Hello,

I report a similar issue on my (non FS) ADI-2 Pro running the latest firmware 183/88. The jumps are erratic but very frequent, happen even when turning the knob at very slow speeds, and can also go backward.

That behaviour started a couple of months ago (I can't recall having seen that before the summer), and since I'm not the only victim it might be firmware-related ?

3

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

We'll check that.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

4

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

There are two possible explanations.

1. Your encoder is defective inside and causes heavy bouncing, means multiple signals instead of one when turned one step. We think this is not the case. There is an anti-bouncing circuit in the unit, and if so severe that this one fails you would have constant problems with the encoder.

2. In our opinion the bigger and unexpected steps are caused from the internal 'accelleration' that happens when the knob is turned a bit more quick.

2 has been addressed in the latest firmware update. The treshold of detecting a faster turn, and thus change to quicker and bigger steps, has been raised a tiny bit. Most users will not notice the difference. But if you try to move from -45 dB to -40 dB and arrived at -35 dB although you did not turn the encoder that quick, the new version should help.

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27924

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

5 (edited by jiw 2018-11-28 20:19:06)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

From: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27924

MC wrote:

- Improved (fine tuned) the Volume knob behaviour to prevent bigger steps of volume changes when turning the knob with slow and medium speed

I gather you are referring to this issue.

Originally, testing indicated the behaviour to be close to identical to the previously described behaviour.

However, after running the volume control through its entire range, this no longer seems to be the case. 

Regarding 1, the notches are clearly individually recognisable at low, medium and high angular speed and the indicated level changes follow them tightly, i.e. there are not many or even any unintentional level jumps that cannot be explained by 2.

Regarding 2, I assume, this can arise from the encoder not being settled in a notch and either bouncing a notch forwards or backwards if the grip on the knob is insufficiently tight or after letting go of the knob. Since the resulting acceleration might be greater than the acceleration for the intended volume change, this could indeed lead to relatively large volume changes that can go both up and down.

Unless the problem arises again, due to factors not covered with regards to 2, I will see this issue as having been resolved for me.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

MC wrote:

There is an anti-bouncing circuit in the unit, and if so severe that this one fails you would have constant problems with the encoder.

I love learning about these extra details that went into the ADI-2 Pro design.  Bouncing encoders is one of my biggest bugbears in the digital audio world...

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

7 (edited by mmm 2018-12-15 13:40:28)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

The new firmware has helped with the many 1-2dB jumps I experienced most of the time, many thanks for that!

... But the 'backward jump' issue remains.

It is happening occasionally, maybe once every 10 manipulations of the knob.
For example, with volume at -37, I turn (relatively slowly to see what's going on) anticlockwise to lower volume, and this is what happens:
click -37.5 click -38 click -38.5 click Surprise ! -34

I might well be in case 2 as reported by jiw... Would be interesting to know if other users experience the same thing. What puzzles me is that I had not noticed anything like that before last summer.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

mmm wrote:

... For example, with volume at -37, I turn (relatively slowly to see what's going on) anticlockwise to lower volume, and this is what happens:
click -37.5 click -38 click -38.5 click Surprise ! -34 ...

I can't reproduce this, it works smoothly here (DAC V.24).

Mac Mini 2018, Audirvana, ADI-2 DAC, Hifiman Arya

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Nico.ch wrote:
mmm wrote:

... For example, with volume at -37, I turn (relatively slowly to see what's going on) anticlockwise to lower volume, and this is what happens:
click -37.5 click -38 click -38.5 click Surprise ! -34 ...

I can't reproduce this, it works smoothly here (DAC V.24).

Pro FS BE (v.89)

On rare occasion I get odd numbers starting with approx -70 or -90 showing then i.e.
-90.3 -90.8 -91.2 -91.7
-97.2 -96.3 -95.5 -94.7 -94.1 -93.4 -92.8

It depends on the speed turning the encoder and the lower the setting is the more likely it happens.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

10

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

There is nothing odd with that if AutoRef Level is active.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

11

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

mmm wrote:

... But the 'backward jump' issue remains. It is happening occasionally, maybe once every 10 manipulations of the knob. For example, with volume at -37, I turn (relatively slowly to see what's going on) anticlockwise to lower volume, and this is what happens:
click -37.5 click -38 click -38.5 click Surprise ! -34

That sounds like a broken encoder to me, not like a firmware problem.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

12 (edited by ramses 2018-12-16 12:55:20)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

MC wrote:

There is nothing odd with that if AutoRef Level is active.

Yes AutoRef Level is active.
BTW .. functionality is fine for me only wanted to add this information, shall there be smth like "an issue".

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

13 (edited by mmm 2018-12-16 14:32:32)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Many thanks for your answers.

The problem does not happen if I turn really slowly, step by step. It might be the way I turn the knob, giving impulses from time to time... If it gets worse I'll have the unit checked.

14

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

ramses wrote:
MC wrote:

There is nothing odd with that if AutoRef Level is active.

Yes AutoRef Level is active.
BTW .. functionality is fine for me only wanted to add this information, shall there be smth like "an issue".

You wrote: 'on rare occasion', which means error report. But these numbers are always available.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

15 (edited by mmm 2018-12-22 02:32:31)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Well I don't know if you have changed anything, but I have the pleasure to say firmware 90 seems to have completely eliminated my problem: no more jumps or strange backward bounces any more !

Many thanks, cheers and merry Christmas smile

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Hallo,
ich habe weiterhin die komischen Rückwärtssprünge beim Hochdrehen der Lautstärke
Firmware 90, ADI-2 pro, balanced mode, USB mode , EQ off
will die Lautstärke z.B- von -40 hochdrehen dann spring es zu -58 zurück, dann geht es etwas hoch dann wieder zurück usw. Habe ein kleines video aufgenommen, kann es aber hier nicht posten.
Kann ich es per Mail  an den Support senden?
Gruß

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

nach einem Werksreset funktioniert die Lautstärkeregelung
so halbwegs für 2 Stunden.
Dann gehts mit den Sprüngen wieder los.

Hardware Defekt ?

18

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Sieht so aus...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

19 (edited by jiw 2019-02-16 16:43:30)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

The behaviour described in my original post (#1) and by other users keeps occurring on my DAC.

However, not only for the volume knob but also for encoder 2.

In the menus, turning encoder 2 sometimes does not change the setting as it should, e.g. after turning encoder 2, the indicator remains on original setting. Changing of the volume in the I/O menu, leads to similar jumps as when using the volume control.

I thought it could be explained by my handling of the encoders but I am becoming ever more doubtful of it.

Since MC has said that h4zok1's Pro seems to have a hardware defect (all in german), has the unit been sent in for a check and if so, could a cause be determined?

20

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

It seems the best thing is to return this DAC for a check.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

21 (edited by mmm 2019-09-12 00:20:08)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I have been overly enthusiastic: the problem has come back to my unit, and is actually worsening.

Has anyone determined whether or not the cause is software-related ? If not I will return my unit under warranty.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I have this issue too and it's very frustrating from a Pro unit. I struggle getting the volume go in the right direction ALL the time. It started with too big jumps and now getting huge jumps even in the wrong directions.


I will try syntax and get it fixed or replaced. I have 5 year extended warranty.

Hope lesson is learned by RME when designing new products wink

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Jchan,

Understand that my Post was entirely "tongue in cheek" and also note that my ADI-2DAC has NEVER exhibited any odd behaviors.

RME does not design Encoders.   They design End Use Products.  The RME design philosophy needs no input from either of us.   It seems quite exceptional as is.   Were a very few defective encoders (amongst the tens of thousands)  to find their way into the mfg pipeline?  It happens. 

Let us not "Throw the Baby out with the Bathwater"     

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

24 (edited by ramses 2019-10-08 07:00:03)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

+1

This is simply the crux of industrial manufacturing. The quality is already at a quite high level. Of course, shit can happen always (like usual), but bad charges are recognized relatively quickly. Not so easy are component deviations. Some of them are directly recognizeable, some only after some time of usage.

But to reach and ensure 100% for every single component of an end user product it would result in exploding costs, which nobody would / could pay. Therefore you need some tradeoffs.

Most issues are already recognizeable at the beginning. You have money back and warranties to cover such exceptional cases. In my ~5 years of reading the RME forum and supporting other users I can say, that defects are rare.

I bought already a lot of RME devices, up to now I had no single quality issue.

The quite high prices of used RME equipment also speak a clear language, excellent quality of devices and long term driver support otherwise the prices would be significantly lower.

This I can't say for every other electronic product that I bought in the past 30+ years, therefore I am very happy with RME built quality.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Yes dont get me wrong, I love RME, it was just not expected with RME to have a failing encoder like this. I've gotten used to virtually 100% flawless operation. I mean my FireFace800 still runs like new after what, 15 years? Incredible. Meanwhile other brands I've used that's just a few years have scraping gain knobs, scraping outputs and inputs, some not working, jumping faders etc.

I will get RME next time for sure. But first I need to get this baby fixed smile Hope it doesnt take too many weeks to get it back.


Best,

Johan

26 (edited by Curt962 2019-10-09 03:42:57)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Is it J Chan or Johan? 

Either way...hang in there Good Sir! 

You have chosen Wisely.   The RME Product has a Stellar Reputation for good reason, and I feel confident that your unfortunate difficulty will be dealt with Swiftly.

Might you anticipate countless enjoyable hours of fine listening in the near future!

Best to You,

Curt

PS:   I had your "Separation Anxiety" problem only 10months ago.  My ADI-2 DAC arrived from the Dealer only a few hours before I had to leave home on Work Assignment....HORROR!!

Sitting in the same chair Im sitting in now...I read the User Manual.  Cover to Cover...forwards and Backwards.  Over and Over.  It helped!!!

Perhaps You also could use your "away" time from the Product to boost your Knowledge Base.    Much to Learn, and even MORE to Like!!

Curt.  RME Cheerleader. smile

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I just noticed the upper smaller encoder of my ADI-2 Pro does this as well. Jumps, irregular movement back and forth.
My wild guess is the encoders can't cope with the heat, because my unit get really hot.

Waiting for a response from Synthax on repair.

J

28

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I received my unit back from Thomann, problem solved for me (under warranty).

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Got the same problem,  it jumps back and foreward, doesnt matter if I do it slow or fast. of course if I do it fast it happens more frequently.

If I go slow from -40 , -39 , -38 then it might go up to -39 even if I just reduce the amount, not increase.
Could the wheel/rotary/knob/ be broken? 

Auto-ref level is off.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

larsaskogstad wrote:

Got the same problem,  it jumps back and foreward, doesnt matter if I do it slow or fast. of course if I do it fast it happens more frequently.

If I go slow from -40 , -39 , -38 then it might go up to -39 even if I just reduce the amount, not increase.
Could the wheel/rotary/knob/ be broken? 

Auto-ref level is off.

I want to report the same problem. ADI-2 Pro FS. As far as I tested, the main knob and the T knob have the same issue. Don't know how to control volume using B button.

Value may jump like 48-> 48.5 -> 49 -> 47.5 if I turn the knob one direction slowly.
auto-ref is off.
Happens probably 1/50 of the times.

31 (edited by Jochen 2019-12-02 15:50:49)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Same issue here sometimes (ADI-2 Pro, latest firmware). Auto Ref level is off.

I don't believe it's just a broken encoder, because when I control volume with the small encoder 1 (an encoder I hardly ever use) the same thing happens sometimes.
Also: when setting up an EQ curve I also never noticed any jumping back from the main encoder.

When it occurs, it's always with volume. Mostly when changing it slowly.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I'm having the same issue as Jochen. No issues with EQ adjustments or very slow volume changes. However when I attempt to change the volume at a reasonable speed the volume number jumps unpredictably up and down. Any ideas @MC?

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Bump on this old thread.

I did some more testing and this is a software issue that only affects volume changes. If RME isn't seeing this in their testing, it may have something to do with a very specific upgrade path throughout last year.

Can someone from RME let us know if it's possible to do a clean install of the device firmware? As in wipe completely and install.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

hgauthreaux wrote:

Bump on this old thread.

I did some more testing and this is a software issue that only affects volume changes. If RME isn't seeing this in their testing, it may have something to do with a very specific upgrade path throughout last year.

Can someone from RME let us know if it's possible to do a clean install of the device firmware? As in wipe completely and install.

AFAIK there are only two things possible like described in the manual.

a) Firmware upgrade
b) "Return to Factory State", see manual

ADI-2 Pro FS manual, page 11:
"Returning to Factory State
In case a total reset is desired: hold encoder 1 and the VOL button pushed while turning on the
unit. This will reset all memory to factory default. Setups and EQ Presets stored by the user will not be deleted."

ADI-2 Pro FS manual, page 29:
"Returning to Factory State
In case a total reset is desired: hold encoder 1 and the VOL button pushed while turning on the
unit. This will reset all current settings to factory default. User-stored Setups and EQ presets are
not affected. The same action is performed by loading Factory via Setup Select. Note that the
reset will be incomplete when the unit is connected to USB while performing the reset.

When holding encoder 1, 2 and the VOL button pushed while turning on the unit, user-stored
Setups and EQ presets are still not affected, but their names are reset as well."

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

My ADI-2 DAC main encoder did fail after one year (odd jump problem).
I've sent the unit back to Thomann and it has been quickly and perfectly repaired by RME. smile

Juts got it back today.

Thanks to the team!!

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

That's Great News N00b!!

As fellow Users of the ADI-2DAC, We've become quite accustomed to such excellence.  Good Stuff!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

37 (edited by Stephane 24 2021-01-28 01:31:46)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Hi
I was wondering if I was unlucky with my unit and I can see on the forum that it's a pretty common default.
So, my volume knob is also failing since some months and it's getting very annoying to modify the volume and make the settings.
I bought my unit on Ebay (GB seller now closed) the 29th May 2019.
What should I do to proceed to a repair ? I suppose this repair is 100% free including the shipment cos it's a conception default and not the user fault.
Thanks

38 (edited by krasigeshev 2021-07-07 11:55:21)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Stephane 24 wrote:

Hi
I was wondering if I was unlucky with my unit and I can see on the forum that it's a pretty common default.

I'm afraid it's common issue, which annoys me a lot right now.
I bought mine RME ADI 2 PRO FS from Thomann and after an year it started to develop this problem.
So I sent it for repair and got it back after a month with replaced encoder.
And it was fine for an year but recently the unit developed the same problem again.
And since I use Cubase with the control room option and don't touch the encoder very often.
Come on RME, for the price you should do much better.....I'm really disappointed !

39 (edited by Stephane 24 2021-07-07 12:54:40)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Yep the encoder issue is very annoying and I can see nobody from RME replied to my request on this forum, it's also very annoying if you need to sell your Dac.
I've also not used the controller a lot, most of the time im setting the volume with the low quality remote.
The prints on the remote buttons are also deleted after 2 years, finally the overall quality production is under some Chinese products.
The dac audio quality and the functions are still great, the machine is not a 1000€ value considering the low quality of some critical elements.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I have same problems.
random jumps,  lettering on 2 of my keys on remote  have worn off.

I did think about repairing and selling , but I love this dac.
Iam not surprised that encoders are failing, they have to deal with a lot of work.

I might purchase another, but not before these encoders problems have been ironed out.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I suggest, those user(s), if encounter problem(s) on individual part(s), better provide date of purchase, serial number, so that RME can trace back if some batch of spare parts has problem, so that they can improve it in future, or even issue a recall if the parts supplier also notice there were some manufacturing defects ....

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

For those affected under warranty RME can fix it for free. So use this chance.
Otherwise, replacement part is described in https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 8#p172908.
For people with soldering skills and tools replacing is trivial.

I do hope RME could switch from the original EC11E series encoder to EC11K. the latter has 6x longer lifespan.
The dautherboard has to be revised though.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

terrys999 wrote:

lettering on 2 of my keys on remote  have worn off.

The lettering on my remote started rubbing off after a week or two. The original battery only lasted a couple of weeks also.

The build quality of the remote sadly isn't up to the quality of the rest of the unit, but the DAC sounds so good that it doesn't really matter to me.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

What really bothers me how calm is RME about that problem. It's like they don't see nothing wrong to sell product for 1 500 euro and to use component the last only a year. They even sell the garbage encoder on their web.......I don't get that mind set at all.

45 (edited by mark2748 2021-07-25 06:46:07)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

ning wrote:

I do hope RME could switch from the original EC11E series encoder to EC11K. the latter has 6x longer lifespan.
The dautherboard has to be revised though.

Very interesting.

Alps EC11E series encoders are variously rated at 15,000 - 20,000 cycles.
The Alps EC11K/J/B series encoders are rated at 100,000 to 1,000,000 cycles!

If you "cycle" (whatever that means) approximately 10 times a day most days, that's roughly 3,000 cycles a year.  Since component lifetime specifications are always statistical in nature (and could be optimistic), you would expect some outlier units in the EC11E series to fail after a few years or even less, which apparently is happening.

Why did RME make such a seemingly poor design decision for a customer-facing part?  Availability?

All this suggests that, when convenient, you might extend the lifetime by using the remote to adjust volume rather than the encoder knob.  Also, treat the knob/shaft gingerly, since the encoder is a miniature precision electro-mechanical device.

Further Reference:
https://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs … s-2020-05/
https://www.alpsalpine.com/e/news_relea … 14_01.html

46 (edited by ning 2021-07-24 19:03:12)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

For me knob breaks every 6-8 months. maybe I use it too much...

Yes. For those who want to make their encoder more durable,
according to https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/15/EC11-1370808.pdf
- EC11K1524406 https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Al … rZqw%3D%3D
and
- EC11K1525413 https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Al … tXrQ%3D%3D
are good options.
the latter has slightly longer travel length.

the solder pads of 11E and 11K are exactly the same, so the 11K should work on ADI-2's stock daughterboard.
there're two more holes needed so it won't fit perfectly though. the knob length is also slightly shorter.
Here's the sizing comparison:
https://i.ibb.co/x294g37/Screen-Shot-2021-07-25-at-1-20-24.png



For 11K to fit perfectly, a modified daughterboard is required. 
So for DIY repairs, I still highly recommend the stock part, EC11E15244G1.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Al … dL8Q%3D%3D
Encoders are cheap, feel free to replace them whenever they fail:)

With that said I still hope future ADI-2s could be upgraded to the 11K series.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

The volume knob issue is a great annoyance, to be sure.  Rather than replace it, why not just get the new remote control or use the one you have to control the volume?  Just keep the remote near the unit, as you would need to have physical access to the DAC to turn the volume knob.  I got in the habit of using the remote to change the volume, mostly out of fear that the knob would fail at some point with use, as the DAC sits on my office desk where I can easily reach it.

48

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

The encoders never fail from too much use (and as such I doubt the K versions mentioned above help). They fail from not enough use and humidity as the inner contacts corrode. Turning the wheel a few times after a longer time of inactivity doesn't fix them, but brings them in a better state.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

MC wrote:

The encoders never fail from too much use (and as such I doubt the K versions mentioned above help). They fail from not enough use and humidity as the inner contacts corrode. Turning the wheel a few times after a longer time of inactivity doesn't fix them, but brings them in a better state.

This is both very reassuring and helpful.  My ADI-2 DAC is 3 years old now, and I have not had any issues with my volume jumping around erratically.  It is always within arm's reach and I have been frequently turning the music up or down since I work from a home office and not every situation is a volume 11 Bohemian Rhapsody moment from Wayne's World.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

crazybaby wrote:
MC wrote:

The encoders never fail from too much use (and as such I doubt the K versions mentioned above help). They fail from not enough use and humidity as the inner contacts corrode. Turning the wheel a few times after a longer time of inactivity doesn't fix them, but brings them in a better state.

This is both very reassuring and helpful.  My ADI-2 DAC is 3 years old now, and I have not had any issues with my volume jumping around erratically.  It is always within arm's reach and I have been frequently turning the music up or down since I work from a home office and not every situation is a volume 11 Bohemian Rhapsody moment from Wayne's World.

Along the past 5y I had four different ADI-2 DAC/Pro devices in use: ADI-2 Pro, DAC, Pro FS R BE (two devices).
Never ever any encoder failure .. humidity here 41% (summer).

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro