Topic: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

Hello,

A question about a possible upgrade.

I’ve a studio that I use mainly for recording one instrument at once for
pre-production of soundtrack orchestral works (harp, guitar etc.) and
sometimes for recording a jazz trio.
The deal is to have (almost) two channels in real pro studio quality.
The setup actually is: Neve 1073, RME 400, Genelec SAM and some good mics.
In other location I have a small mix studio with the ADI-2 PRO fs that I really love and that I feel superior compared with RME 400.
So the question: in a perspective of “no compromise” could be better a Babyface Pro, UCX, UFX or a 2nd ADI PRO used as interface, so non only as DA but also as AD (loosing Totalmix) eventually keeping the old 400 for those few times that more than 2 channel are needed ?
Thanks in advance and greetings from Italy.

2 (edited by ramses 2018-12-22 20:23:42)

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

What about a combination of:

- RayDAT
- 1 (up to 4 !) ADI-2 FS via ADAT
- ADI-2 Pro FS connected via AES to connect monitors and phones

Minumum Solution with one ADI-2 FS:  €649 + €689 + €1559 = €2897
Solution with                 two ADI-2 FS:  €649 + €689 + €689 + €1559 = €3586
Maximum Solution with four ADI-2 FS:  €649 + €689 + €689 + €689 + €689 + €1559 = €4964

Alternatively, to have also Durec and the flexibility of USB:
UFX II and:
- ADI-2 Pro (via AES)
- ADI-2 FS via ADAT1
- ARC USB
Total Price: €1999 + €1559 + €689 + €129 = €4376

RayDAT = Rock solid proven PCIe card
- has 2 separate AES and SPDIF ports
- 2x MIDI !
- WC module can be ordered optionally

ADI-2 FS has from infos on the webpage the same converters as the ADI-2 Pro FS.
Very versatile unit at a very attractive price point.
It can be connected to an ADAT port and uses only the 1st two channels.
So it can be connected to the RayDAT very easily.
And you can have these 2 ports without any loss of a channels even when recording with 192 kHz.

Then I would connect an ADI-2 Pro FS via AES to the RayDAT to connect main monitors and phones there,
as the functionality is great to switch between phones and monitors by using remap-key feature.

On top you can combine this with an ARC USB...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

ramses wrote:

What about a combination of:

- RayDAT
- 1 (up to 4 !) ADI-2 FS via ADAT
- ADI-2 Pro FS connected via AES to connect monitors and phones

Minumum Solution with one ADI-2 FS:  €649 + €689 + €1559 = €2897
Solution with                 two ADI-2 FS:  €649 + €689 + €689 + €1559 = €3586
Maximum Solution with four ADI-2 FS:  €649 + €689 + €689 + €689 + €689 + €1559 = €4964

Alternatively, to have also Durec and the flexibility of USB:
UFX II and:
- ADI-2 Pro (via AES)
- ADI-2 FS via ADAT1
- ARC USB
Total Price: €1999 + €1559 + €689 + €129 = €4376

RayDAT = Rock solid proven PCIe card
- has 2 separate AES and SPDIF ports
- 2x MIDI !
- WC module can be ordered optionally

ADI-2 FS has from infos on the webpage the same converters as the ADI-2 Pro FS.
Very versatile unit at a very attractive price point.
It can be connected to an ADAT port and uses only the 1st two channels.
So it can be connected to the RayDAT very easily.
And you can have these 2 ports without any loss of a channels even when recording with 192 kHz.

Then I would connect an ADI-2 Pro FS via AES to the RayDAT to connect main monitors and phones there,
as the functionality is great to switch between phones and monitors by using remap-key feature.

On top you can combine this with an ARC USB...

Thanks ramses for your suggestion.
RayDAT+ADI-2 fs (very interesting box) could be fine, but I have an iMac so the PCIe is not possible, I guess. But the design with 2X ADI-2 fs it would be perfect for me.

4 (edited by ramses 2018-12-22 23:12:17)

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

Alternatively you could use a Digiface USB:
- Digiface USB €359
- ADI-2 Pro FS €1559
- ADI-2 FS        €689
TOTAL:  €359 + €1559 + €689 = €2607

- optional 2nd and 3rd ADI-2 FS
- optional ARC USB

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

ramses wrote:

Alternatively you could use a Digiface USB:
- Digiface USB €359
- ADI-2 Pro FS €1559
- ADI-2 FS        €689
TOTAL:  €359 + €1559 + €689 = €2607

- optional 2nd and 3rd ADI-2 FS
- optional ARC USB

This is perfect for me or alternatively with the UFX and with the possibility, not to be overlooked, of having some reverb/eq in the headphones when recording without boring external hardware, cables etc.
Now I go to learn what Durec is.

Thank you ramses for your well thought out suggestion.

6 (edited by ramses 2018-12-23 10:07:57)

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

Durec is the possibility to connect an USB storage medium (Stick, SSD, Disk) to the front USB port of an UFX II or UFX+
and to be able to record directly to it.

This is possible either when you operate in stand-alone mode without PC or additionally on top to a DAW recording, as backup solution shall the PC have issues, to have the recording in safe harbor.

Durec has been improved on the UFX+/UFX II compared to the old flagship interface UFX:
- UFX+: up to 76 channels can be recorded simultaneously - optionally with 12 analog and 64 MADI inputs
- internal Real Time Clock, allows timestamps in DuRec filenames
- increased reliability when using slower or multi-partitioned USB thumb devices

The UFX II (same as with the UFX+) would be very interesting to you, as it's fully standalone operateable
by the display and became a lot of improvements over the old flagship interface UFX.
Especially the analog circuits became an overhaul and are very decent in terms of quality (Mics, analog I/O).

The ARC USB can also be connected to the back of the UFX II and UFX+ making standalone operation more comfortably.

In this blog article I put together, what improvements have been made with UFX+ and UFX II.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/

A MADI based setup, like I have it here with 2 Octamic XTC, looks like this:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Cber-MADI/

I use the UFX+ also for my guitar rig to emulate a parallel effect loop for my tube amp to have more punch in the signal,
as otherwise 2 multieffects in a serial loop would kill too much from the amp sound. From this you can see and deduce how versatile this unit is and the flexibility of TotalMix FX in terms of routing:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … arren-Rig/

Both are the same devices / quality, UFX+ has only MADI on top and because of the big amount of channels
it has USB3 and Thunderbolt, compared to USB2 on the UFX II.

I use the UFX+ most of the time now as tape deck and record guitar with 2 Mics to Backing tracks coming froom the PC.
Where I perform overdubs with the guitar.
A very nice performance, no complexity of the DAW when you have the guitar in your hands ...

Later you can move the USB Stick to the PC and easily import the multiplexed file to Cubase which then extracts all tracks properly. Or you can even use a Wavetool from RME which also can perform the extraction of tracks (as Mono and Stereo tracks). I export usually both, then I can select easier what is mono and what was a stereo track.

If you do not want to use or do not have Durec, then you can also use Global Record from the RME DIGICheck collection of audio analysis tools. This is a lightweight recording solution where you can record very reliably to a PC but without the complexity of a DAW. Global Record is only available for Windows based systems, not Apple.

Information about DURec you can find in this UFX+ manual, chapter 38.
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/ff … plus_d.pdf

Information about compatible USB Sticks, pen devices, SSD you can find in this thread:
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=11257
Not every USB medium (be it stick or disk) is built internally in a way, that a high number of channels (the maximum number that the UFX+/UFX II allow) can be written instandly without issues. Therefore this thread, which tells you which devices are unproblematic and ensure proper operation even if you record with the max number of supported channels.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

Great work, congratulations! I must study a little bit since until now I have used Totalmix in a superficial way.
Durec: I see. Interesting in many ways. Seems that some USB errors can occur but at extreme load, not my situation of 4-6 tracks 96/24 max.
I see that in your sophisticated rig there is no room for ADI-2. Do you think that the differences in ADA performances between for example UFX II and ADI-2 fs are not so significant?
After some years spent in listening, recording and playing I think more and more that the quality of the original material is crucial. Hence my interest in having this step at top, even in my small environment.
There is much to be said about the quality of the room but this is evidently off-topic...

8 (edited by ramses 2018-12-23 14:13:35)

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

Rewrote it, pls read again.

bat wrote:

Great work, congratulations! I must study a little bit since until now I have used Totalmix in a superficial way.

I wrote a TM FX primer and collected URLs to free RME Youtube Training videos:

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … rnal-equi/

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … al-Videos/

bat wrote:

Durec: I see. Interesting in many ways. Seems that some USB errors can occur but at extreme load, not my situation of 4-6 tracks 96/24 max.

With a proper device you have absolutely no issues.

bat wrote:

I see that in your sophisticated rig there is no room for ADI-2.
Do you think that the differences in ADA performances between for example UFX II and ADI-2 fs are not so significant?

I do not understand your question, please repeart / rephrase.
Which rig do you mean ? My personal or one of my proposals to you ?

I personally think you can hear the difference between D/A of UFX II and ADI-2 Pro*/DAC/FS.
More advanced AKM D/A chip. But better try it on your own.

bat wrote:

After some years spent in listening, recording and playing I think more and more that the quality of the original material is crucial. Hence my interest in having this step at top, even in my small environment.

Nice idea. But also consider that many people also used older RME gear to record classic music
and the results were also very nice. But the basic strategy is understood and surely not bad.

There are 4-5 possibilties with a very different price tag:

1. get one Digiface USB which is the cheapest solution, you have TM FX, you can connect up to 4 ADI-2 *.
2. get two Digiface USB. One ADAT for synching the two devices, you can connect up to 6 ADI-2 *.
3. get UFX II for Durec, but pls note that the amount of digital channels is limited (AES, ADAT1 and ADAT2)
    and you need to know that AES and ADAT2 are shared, they are not fully separate.
    So you could connect i.e. only one ADI-2 Pro FS and one ADI-2 FS to get 4 High End quality analog ports
4. get UFX+ with MADI, to be able to add more devices with digital ports to the unit.
    But this will get very expensive.
    If you maybe also need Mics, then get Octamic XTC, which has 4x AES, this gives you the possibility to connect
    up to 4 ADI-2 *. Same is applicable to ADI-8 QS. Uses the internal routing capability of the devices, to route those
    digital ports to other ports of the MADI channel, i.e. 9..15.
    Or you take MADI based converters for
    - 4x AES: then you can connect 4 more ADI-2 * digitally (ADI-642)
    - or 8x ADAT, then you can connect up to 8 ADI-2 * (ADI-648)
   
5. another alternative: if your MAC has Thunterbolt, then get an extension closure with PCIe sockets.
http://www.sonnettech.com/de/product/th … index.html
Then you can stay with the RayDAT which would be a very nice and stable solution for this purpose.
You could insert even two RayDATs, clock synch them internally or using WC module, then you have
8x ADAT IN and OUT with lowest latencies.
Then you could connect between 1..8 ADI-2 FS ... or whatever you want.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

9 (edited by bat 2018-12-23 14:43:29)

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

1. get one Digiface USB which is the cheapest solution, you have TM FX, you can connect up to 4 ADI-2 *.

Digiface USB have FX like Rev, Eq, Comp ?



5. another alternative: if your MAC has Thunterbolt, then get an extension closure with PCIe sockets.
http://www.sonnettech.com/de/product/th … index.html
Then you can stay with the RayDAT which would be a very nice and stable solution for this purpose.
You could insert even two RayDATs, clock synch them internally or using WC module, then you have
8x ADAT IN and OUT with lowest latencies.
Then you could connect between 1..8 ADI-2 FS ... or whatever you want.

This is also interesting. Yes I have Thunderbolt 3 on one iMac and Thunderbolt 2 on the other. But is also cool the light weigh-no external power Digiface. Sounds simple and plug&play solution

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

Digiface has no FX. For FX most people prefer anyway their different VST plugins.
The Reverb on the unit is quite handy if you want to give a vocalist a little bit of reverb for more singing comfort
without having to route the reverb from the DAW to the phones ...
The EQ I use rather often but tbh, for this purpose you can use the 5-band PEQ of the ADI-2 Pro for Monitors and Phones.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

11 (edited by ramses 2018-12-23 16:26:39)

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

And now a completely different trick ...
As the new RME USB based recording interfaces and converters like the ADI-2 *
all use the MADIface driver and a DAW can only load one ASIO driver
you can do even more trickeries by using devices all being supported by the MADIface driver.

So you have Apple .. therefore Global Record won't work, thus, if you want smth like DURec,
then you need UFX II or UFX+.
I told you already that with the UFXII you are limited to two fully separated digital outputs ADAT1 and AES,
because ADAT2 is shared with AES.

Now comes the trick..

Get UFX II, connect to PC via USB Port 1
Get DIGIface USB, connect to PC via USB Port 2
Synchronize clock between UFX II and DIGIface USB by connecting UFXII-ADAT2 with DIGIface ADAT4

Connect ADI-2 Pro FS #1 to UFXII:AES
Connect ADI-2 FS #1       to UFXII:ADAT1
Conect ADI-2 FS #2..4     to DIGIface USB:ADAT1..3

By this you are fully PC and Apple compatible, have Durec and are scalable with High-End AD/DA up to
- 1 x ADI-2 Pro FS and
- 4 x ADI-2 FS
Add ARC USB to the setup if you like.

Switching between Monitors and Phones you perform by the Remap-Key feature of the ADI-2 Pro FS, see also this blog article: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

So you see, there are different possibilities. The beauty here is, that

1. you can access all these devices through the MADIface ASIO driver and save by this routing, etc. You only need to take care, that both devices always use the same ASIO buffersize, which is easy to fulfill.

2. you have with a DIGIface USB a unit which has the very unique feature (no other RME device has this)
that you can configure all 4 ADAT ports for optical SPDIF, shall you need this.
The ADI-2 * devices support btw both, SPDIF and ADAT, then they use only the 1st two channels out of the ADAT stream.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

Thinking some more about your demand I think best is for you to start with UFX II and ADI-2 Pro FS.
Then you have 2 devices and a lot of possibilities.

Then you can find out yourself, whether these two devices are already enough and compare
the analog sections of both units to come to 1st own experiences and important conclusions about how to continue.

The ADI-2 Pro FS makes definitive sense in regards to the Quality for main monitors and phones.
And you will definitively also love the dynamic loudness feature.

The UFX II will give you also high quality analog section, DURec, Standalone capabilities, plenty of
Mic and Analog ports, as well as some digital ports to further expand.

Two devices and only around €3500 ... still overseeable.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

13

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

This setup is the less tricky, linear. Great monitor, great Headphones. 4 excellent mic inputs e 2 "oh my god" premium mic inputs. This is my needs as described in the topic. But also the other solutions you have figured out are cleaver and they allowed me to better understand the logic of the RME system. So, thanks again. I will read again the various solutions and at the beginning of the new year I will wrote to my German online shop...

Re: (2nd) ADI-2 PRO or not ADI-2 PRO "that is the question"

Great, thanks that you liked my proposals and I am glad that my last idea seems to be the tie breaker for you,
to get something great without too many expenses.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13