Topic: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

Hi, I'm considering to buy Digiface Dante USB3, instead to have a pcie-R card. I would like to know about average round trip latency on a DAW (Cubase etc...) at 128/256 samples and 24bit/48khz. Anyone tried?

2 (edited by ramses 2019-12-02 10:16:58)

Re: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

These are the RTL values that you can expect from a RME solution.
As reported by Cubase.

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/2343-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-v2-jpg/

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

Hi Ramses.
I can't see the image of your post with the latency information (I don't know why)
Can you put it back or write the information?

Another question...
Could 40 or more tracks be recorded and monitored from Cubase or ProTools without latency (or with no noticeable latency) with Digiface Dante and without using Total Mix?
I need to be able to do up to 8 stereo monitor mixes with no latency


Thanks a lot.
Greetings.

4 (edited by ramses 2021-03-21 10:25:07)

Re: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

Jon wrote:

I can't see the image of your post with the latency information (I don't know why)

Might be related to your browser.

Jon wrote:

Can you put it back or write the information?

Yes sure, its a screenshot of an excel from this blog article (see "latency values"):
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.ph … es-v2-jpg/
This is the direct link to the JPEG: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.ph … es-v2-jpg/

Contained is the RTL (Round Trip Latency) @44.1 kHz from different RME solutions I own (except TB, got this from a forum member) as being reported by the RME ASIO driver to the DAW. RME is known to report accurate values (which is not the case for every vendor).

I put these values just as an example, what RTL values you can expect from different RME solutions (I own), be it USB, FW, TB, PCIe based. Additionally two further RTL calculations with an UFX connected as preamp behind RayDAT through ADAT and an Octamic XTC preamp through MADI.

It might not be exactly the same for Digiface Dante, but at least in that range.

Jon wrote:

Could 40 or more tracks be recorded and monitored from Cubase or ProTools without latency
(or with no noticeable latency) with Digiface Dante and without using Total Mix?

I am not sure I understood the question exactly. So let's approach the question slowly about my understanding of latencies, their magnitude, and where they occur.

The latencies in monitoring depend on whether audio signals are
a) only routed on the recording interface within the digital routing matrix or
b) still have to be processed on the DAW.

Case a) is quite fast in near-real time, you have then essentially only the small delays for A/D and D/A. The small values for the transport within the routing matrix of the recording interface can be neglected, as I understand it here.
Example: with older converters like the UC these are at 44.1 kHz: AD 0.98 + DA 0.63 = 1.61ms. With the newest Babyface Pro FS with the latest converter generation: 44.1 kHz: AD 0.11 + DA 0.16 = 0.27 ms and at 96 kHz even only 0.05+0.07=0.12ms.

In Case b) the time for the transfer via the interface to the PC is added (USB, FW). The amount of latency depends decisively on how far you can go down with the (for Windows: ASIO / for Apple: ..) buffersize without audio dropouts. Please have a look in the table how different the RTL values are. Please note that the RTL value includes everything: Time for A/D, transport to PC and back and D/A. For a UFX+ with USB3 and an ASIO buffersize of 32 samples: 3.061ms. If you want to have maximum security for an important recording, you will hardly record with 32 samples buffersize, but rather with 1024 or even 2048. With 512 it is already 24.8 ms. And the values for 1024 and 2048 (not included in the table) would already be: 48.16 and 94.6 ms. When recording from microphones only, latency is less important than stability and with a higher ASIO buffersize you minimize the ASIO and CPU load on the PC significantly.

In the case of a network solution, you also have the network component with a probably comparably low latency, which is independent of the "buffersize" (case B).


And now I do not understand exactly the background of your question why you still make the addition "without TotalMix FX".

Do you allude to the "DAW mode", that you only want to route via the DAW ? This brings you in terms of low latency nothing, because then you are in case b), you have to send everything through the DAW.

Or do you mean the "stand-alone" operation without USB connection to a PC ?

Could you please describe the background a bit, which connection signal / signal flow you mean now or what the actual sense of your question is?

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

Hello again.
I have already been able to see the image. (Sorry, I'm new to the forum)
There is no specific information about Digiface Dante.
The latency of the devices shown in that data are the same for Digiface Dante?
I forgot to mention that I work with Mac Book Pro.

Thanks again.

6 (edited by ramses 2021-03-21 11:23:59)

Re: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

Please re-read my posting, your question is explained there.
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 66#p167666

It contains also questions back to you as some things from your question are not clear to me (e.g. "without using Total Mix").

But maybe your question goes more into the direction of ADM (ASIO direct monitoring) ?
The Digiface Dante supports ASIO Direct Monitoring (ADM).

In ASIO Direct Monitoring mode the monitoring is done on the audio hardware.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

Hi Ramses.

I think in my previous post we were writing at the same time and I have not seen yours.

Thank you very much for the explanation, and sorry for the little information I have given you.

I am not an RME user (yet). I work with RIO preamps from Yamaha, Dante Virtual Soundcard and Protools or Cubase. I make classical music recordings and usually don't need the musicians or conductor to hear the return as a monitor mix. Therefore, I have no problems with latency. I set the buffer size to the maximum to ensure there are no drops in the recording.
The problem is when, for some reason, musicians ask me to listen to themselves while they play. If the total latency from when the signal enters the AD converter until it leaves the DA converter is greater than 10-12 ms, the musicians notice it, and cannot play because they are heard with a delay.
When I need to monitor for musicians, I use an external mixer so there is no problem with latency. But I want to save myself having to carry a mixer. I want to use the same DAW to do the monitoring for the musicians, without using other software or external mixer. For this last thing it was the one of "without TotalMix FX". I don't really know how TotalMix FX works. I don't know why, I thought it would serve as a parallel tool to the DAW, and the monitoring could be done from this software.
I dont need use resource-intensive plugins. In the recording, with the native equalizers of Cubase or ProTools I have enough. If possible I prefer to do everything from the same platform (DAW). It is so much easier.
With other systems like MOTU I have had no problem lowering the latency time, but I no longer work with that system.
There is a Yamaha card that allows to lower latency a lot in Dante networks, but it is PCIe, so I cannot use it on a laptop. What I'm looking for is an external device that works with Dante networks, which allows me to lower the latency enough to be able to do everything that I describe.

I hope I have explained myself better now.

Thank you very much for your attention.

Re: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

Jon wrote:

Hi Ramses.
I think in my previous post we were writing at the same time and I have not seen yours.
Thank you very much for the explanation, and sorry for the little information I have given you.

No problem Jon, thanks for your additional information

Jon wrote:

I am not an RME user (yet). I work with RIO preamps from Yamaha, Dante Virtual Soundcard and Protools or Cubase. I make classical music recordings and usually don't need the musicians or conductor to hear the return as a monitor mix. Therefore, I have no problems with latency. I set the buffer size to the maximum to ensure there are no drops in the recording.

Exactly what I mentioned, you use a buffersize to be able to record very safely using your DAW.
While we are at it, allow me to introduce you to additional "safety concepts" that are available with RME solutions:

1. DURec (Direct USB Recording) to an USB Stick/SSD/HD directly connected to a RME UFX+/UFXII. Either as backup recording in parallel to DAW recording or as main recording in stand-alone mode, when the recording interface is disconnected from PC. As of now for Dante/AVB such solutions are not available (only for UFX+/UFXII).

2. For Windows: Global Record (part of DIGIcheck audio analyzer toolset, free of charge), this is a light-weight recording application with the focus to use only very little CPU resources from a PC (compared to a complex DAW). Is designed to work as an ASIO client, I think therefore only available for Windows (because of ASIO possibility to directly access the HW through an ASIO driver).

Jon wrote:

The problem is when, for some reason, musicians ask me to listen to themselves while they play. If the total latency from when the signal enters the AD converter until it leaves the DA converter is greater than 10-12 ms, the musicians notice it, and cannot play because they are heard with a delay.

Exactly my experience with an UFX+. If I plug my E-Guitar to an Instr input and play through a virtual amp (VSTi), then its possible up to an ASIO buffersize of 256 which is a RTL of 13,22ms. This is at the edge of being able to play comfortably without immediately slowing down which is the case once the RTL reaches a certain point.
But these are very rare cases that I record this way through an VSTi. Normally I play to a backing track and record through microphones. So once audio reaches my ear (through monitors or headphones) I play through the amp and this little latency is much much less, as converter latency is very little these days and independend of any ASIO buffersize.

Jon wrote:

When I need to monitor for musicians, I use an external mixer so there is no problem with latency. But I want to save myself having to carry a mixer.

Understandable. With TotalMix FX you can create submixes per HW output, where you have only the little delay from AD/DA conversion at the recording interface plus a little latency over the network which should be much smaller compared to any buffer sizes through USB/FW/..

Either your existing Dante Boxes have phones outputs that you could use for this purpose or maybe there are Dante boxes which give you some phones outputs.

Jon wrote:

I want to use the same DAW to do the monitoring for the musicians, without using other software or external mixer. For this last thing it was the one of "without TotalMix FX". I don't really know how TotalMix FX works. I don't know why, I thought it would serve as a parallel tool to the DAW, and the monitoring could be done from this software.

TotalMix is simply the control software for the recording interface where you can also control the routing for each of the HW outputs. You are free to route any HW input and any audio coming from PC/DAW to each of the HW outputs.
If you do not want / need audio from PC for such a submix, then in TM FX simply turn the faders of the so called "Software Playback channels" down (this is the middle row of faders) and only turn up faders of interest from HW inputs (this is the top row in TotalMix FX).
And this you can do in submix mode for EVERY HW output individually, to create the perfect submix for each of the outputs.
Hence the name "submix mode", every HW output is a submix ..
Maybe a little similar to an AUX channel of a mixer where you can also decide which input should go to what Aux channel.
But here in TM FX this priciple is even more flexible, because you are not limited to the HW inputs but you can also mix audio coming from the PC/DAW.
This is very structured and logic and once understood it supports you perfectly whatever you want to achieve.

IMHO the best designed, most flexible, most structured/logic and best working mixer software on the market.

I am personally coming from Focusrite Mixcontrol and checked a lot of youtube videos of other vendor solutions.
Since I am using RME .. no limitations anymore and high satisfaction (high "peace in mind" factor)...
I think you know what I mean.

Jon wrote:

I dont need use resource-intensive plugins. In the recording, with the native equalizers of Cubase or ProTools I have enough. If possible I prefer to do everything from the same platform (DAW). It is so much easier.
With other systems like MOTU I have had no problem lowering the latency time, but I no longer work with that system.
There is a Yamaha card that allows to lower latency a lot in Dante networks, but it is PCIe, so I cannot use it on a laptop. What I'm looking for is an external device that works with Dante networks, which allows me to lower the latency enough to be able to do everything that I describe.
I hope I have explained myself better now.
Thank you very much for your attention.

Understood. I think then its really worth evaluating the Digiface Dante and make yourself acquainted with the TM FX concept of routing.
In submix mode select an HW output, raise the faders of HW inputs and SW Playback channels.
This you do for each of the HW outputs (aka submixes) to create the perfect submix for each of the outputs.

Along with that TM FX is very comfortably to be customized.
Storing settings digitally in 8 snapshots and workspaces. These files can be stored to your PC for backup purposes or in case you want to save them for several setups / occasions.
Its also possible to store the snapshot settings not only to a PC but also to up to 30 Quick Workspace select slots.

I recommend you to watch some RME videos about TotalMix FX and its capabilities.
Watching RME videos is absolutely fun, as the "bla bla" factor is zero.
Real helpful information "to the point", introducting the features without waste of time.

Here in my blog I put together some URLs about available RME TM FX videos:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … al-Videos/

If you have any other remaining question, please feel free to ask.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

9

Re: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

The DF Dante delivers latency times similar to what you were used to. The DVS is no comparison as it is a software solution (therefore higher latency) of something that otherwise is in hardware (lower latency).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

10

Re: Latency with RME DIGIFACE DANTE

Okay

So it seems that is what I was looking for.

Thank you very much for the explanation.

Greetings.