Topic: Another auto ref level question

So, I think I'm still not quite clear on the mechanics of how auto ref level works.  I just got a new amp that has low/mid/high gain settings and is connected to the ADI via XLR.  This is my first experience with XLR and an amp that has an adjustable gain setting.

The optimum ref level on the ADI-2 with this amp works out to be +13 (+19 XLR) when the amp is set to "mid".  The ADI at +19/XLR doesn't provide quite enough voltage to get the amp to max output (would need +22) on its high gain setting.  So, in order to allow the amp to be able to achieve maximum output (though they said to experiment with low gain setting, too), the mfr suggested using the mid-gain setting. 

So, if I turn the ADI autoref OFF and set the ref level for +13, my understanding is that the ADI ref level will then stay locked at +13.  Right? 

If I turn autoref ON with the ref level still set at +13, does the auto ref level then override the +13 ref level and change ref levels depending on what volume I'm using?

Thanks...

R

2 (edited by Curt962 2020-02-08 01:45:05)

Re: Another auto ref level question

RP!  Welcome back!   Nice to see you here again.   

My thoughts are to set your Amp input sensitivity per the the Mfr's guidelines, and let Auto-Ref work it's Magic!    Max Out your SNR!    Off the Cuff, I see no need for a fixed level. We would normally reserve that for an instance where one uses a Preamp, or Integrated Amp.   In your case.  No.

Push the Button, and Enjoy.

All the Best for Happy Listening!

Curt

PS:  How's the Shoulder?

(for those wondering, RPGroman was our only known Casualty from the Speaker/Furniture moving exercise we did some months ago)  There may have been others...but?  Dead Men tell no tales. smile

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

3 (edited by rpgroman 2020-02-08 01:49:46)

Re: Another auto ref level question

Thanks Curt,

If I read your answer right, autoref does, indeed, override the ref level values set with autroref off.  So, no point in setting the ref level value (which can only be done with autoref off) if one is going to be using autoref.  Have I got that right?

Thanks for asking about the shoulder/arm (torn biceps tendon).  It's about 95% at this point.  Still doing PT everyday, but I've got a deadline (fly-fishing trip!) in early March when it MUST be healed. So, I'm working religiously at the PT!

R

Re: Another auto ref level question

RP,

Auto-Ref is it's own deal.  IT decides the correct output level, and it works a treat!

Fly Fishing?  When might we anticipate the Trout (Forelle) Feast??    I'll bring the Cocktail Sauce!! smile

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Another auto ref level question

O.K., thanks.  I now believe that I understand autoref (and "not autoref").

Where I'm going, it's 100% catch-and-release, baby.  So, put that cocktail sauce back in the fridge, Curt ;>).

6 (edited by Curt962 2020-02-08 16:13:12)

Re: Another auto ref level question

"Catch and Release" hey?  Does your Wife know about this?  Sounds to me like the Group intends to do a bit of Nightclubbing. smile

Were that the case, get that Arm in a Sling, and play the Sympathy Card!!   Highly effective.  Ask about their Home Demo Policy!  smile

I digress.  Perhaps you can tell us more about your new Amp.  Model, etc.   From there, we can make more informed suggestions, and have your entire system operating at it's maximum potential.

Best to You!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Another auto ref level question

Digress, indeed!  All I'll say is that a bit of time in the southern hemisphere is going to do wonders for our state of mind after what's been a miserable winter, so far, up here in the NW corner of the US.

Amp is a Benchmark AHB2.

Re: Another auto ref level question

That Benchmark Amp just recently came up in discussion on the Forum.  Do a bit of Poking around.  You may find some helpful insights.

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

9

Re: Another auto ref level question

rpgroman wrote:

If I read your answer right, autoref does, indeed, override the ref level values set with autroref off.

Watch the volume screen when turning the volume up/down. The current ref level is in the top second line. And I agree that 'mid' should be the correct setting for this wonderful amp.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Another auto ref level question

Thanks for that suggestion.  I'm usually sitting too far away (and using the remote) to notice that detail on the screen. But, now that you've pointed it out, I do see it!  Much appreciated, Matias. 

And, thanks to you, too Curt.

I've long suspected that if RME did an amp it would likely perform very similarly to the ABH2!

11 (edited by Curt962 2020-02-08 23:05:50)

Re: Another auto ref level question

Good Stufff RP!

Your new Amplifier is reportedly quite exceptional in terms of SNR, and Low Distortion.   In combination with your ADI-2 DAC, it will no doubt provide a Clean, Quiet foundation upon which your nice Speakers can do their best.  PROVIDED!  (You know where I'll go with that smile

Let's just do it MC's way, and Enjoy. 

Best to You for Happy Listening!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Another auto ref level question

An update after living with the AHB2 for a little while.  First of all, it is all that's advertised/written/measured.  Really any outstanding piece of kit....and so tiny!  Plus, it just looks so cool sitting next to the ADI-2 and makes my Revels sing!

Re. levels, the mid-gain setting on the AHB2 seems just too loud.  I can get the ADI2 up to about -14/15 db after which it's deafening.  I played some of my more majestic (as in super loud!) symphonic tracks and, at my listening position, the peaks/crescendos were hitting 85-90 db on my hand-held meter at -15 on the ADI.  That's borderline too much for my ears.   So, I've set the AHB2 to low gain and those same 85-90 db meter readings are achieved around -6 or so on the ADI.

My rudimentary understanding is that it is theoretically better performance on the ADI the closer it can get to-0.    That would appear to point towards keeping the AHB2 at its low gain setting.  Am I correct in my understanding???

I am using auto ref level "ON" and, unless somebody contradicts, that's where it'll stay.

Finally, for general "polite"/dinnertime listening, somewhere around the -25 to -30 range on the ADI is about where we've settled. The low volume ref is still set at it's default -30 setting.  Given the above, do I need to adjust the low volume reference a bit?  If so, what would be the recommendation on that??

Re: Another auto ref level question

RP,

Seems you're doing very well.  If you don't hear any noise...don't worry about being "Spot On" 0db Vol.   I don't.

Yes.  Adjust your Low Vol Ref to agree with your preferred Max Vol.   Ie:  Low Vol Ref set 20db below that number.   You're Dialed In!

Best!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

14

Re: Another auto ref level question

I wrote that several times before: there is no loss of whatsoever. The limit is not the ADI or the AHB-2, it is the ambient room noise and your ears. There is no distortion at lower levels with your system, so the only lower limit is the self-noise of both units - imagine the low level parts of the music would vanish within the noise - uh oh! But that is not happening. Are you able to hear any noise when not playing music? No, because it is so low it stays below your hearing threshold.

So what happens when you play music at -50 dB on the ADI? Parts of the music will be below your hearing threshold, that's all. No need to speculate about bits lost or reduced dynamic range or low level distortion and all this outdated crap.

And when you crank up the volume until it hurts so that you are able to easily hear even the lowest volume parts of the music, fun is gone.

Your personal sweet spot is somewhere in-between and that is fine and nothing to worry about. And you don't loose anything. Enjoy! (copyright Curt962 wink

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

15 (edited by Curt962 2020-02-18 03:22:18)

Re: Another auto ref level question

Thanks MC. smile

Ambient Noise.  Oh let's GO THERE!!  smile

I recently went on a Crusade in my Room to manage that situation!   Manoman...Appliances in an adjacent space were killing me.  A bit of "upgrade" netted me a 15db (peak) reduction in Ambient Noise.  Now in the 40db range.  Exceedingly quiet by normal standards. 

It all adds up!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

16 (edited by rpgroman 2020-02-18 04:18:22)

Re: Another auto ref level question

Thanks to you both.  No noise...in fact the background is dead quiet.  Absolutely zero  hiss or buzz from the speakers w/no music playing, either (that's a first for me!).

Consider me reassured that I've managed to bumble along and have got it more or less right ;>).

Again....if anybody's considering the AHB2 and ADI2-DAC combo, it is a definite audio winner!!!

Re: Another auto ref level question

RP!

Outstanding for You!   How refreshing to read your positive comments regarding your ADI-2 DAC/ AHB2 Combination.  A LOT of engineering went into your chosen Combination, so it seems the World is Your Oyster!  Crank up the Volume, and Enjoy!! smile

Happy Listening,

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes