1 Topic by nateandrews (edited by nateandrews 2020-06-16 21:40:56)

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Topic: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

I spent a bit of time last night with a new DI box and my FF400 and my Kemper and reamping the DI track via the SPDIF.  I'm recording it via XLR 1 (using CounryMan DI) and then sending out out via SPDIF to the Kemper.

Long story short, I finally figured out that MUTE on a software playback channel vs PULLING FADER DOWN is a totally different animal!  I could not figure out how to NOT hear my DI guitar whilst hearing the reamp.  The trick was to pull down the fader of the SPDIF SOFTWARE PLAYBACK vs hitting the MUTE button!

I thought intuitively about the routing of totalmix and how my signal flow was going.  It was only by luck that I decided to pull fader down and voila, that did it!  Is this a "normal" thing to do, where one would pull a fader back vs. hitting MUTE?

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-06-16 16:45:19)

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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

If I understood exactly what happened then its easy ...

Mute mutes the SW Playback channel for all HW outputs (aka "submixes") on the bottom line of TM FX.

If you turn down the fader of a SW Playback channel (in submix mode), then the volume for the SW playback channel is turned down for the particular HW output that you selected in the bottom line of TM FX.

BTW .. If you select a HW output in submix mode, then you see this output name on the bottom label of all channels in top and middle row .. because you change here the submix for this particular output in submix mode.

Its nice and logic, but of course needs some time to settle. Once understood its pretty clear what to do and this is finally the nice thing. Flexible and does exactly what you want ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

You talked me into using SUBMIX mode vs FREE MODE, so I am in SUBMIX.  Here is a capture of my TM

https://ibb.co/KFb0McY

I have the DI guitar track in Cubase going out of the SPDIF and into my KEMPER to reamp.  Before stumbling onto the pull fader down trick, I was MUTING the SPDIF SOFTWARE PLAYBACK which in turn I guess killed the signal going to the kemper!  I then figured out to pull fader down which makes me not hear the raw DI but still blasts a hot nice signal into the kemper.

I guess I had just assumed that a MUTE on a channel would accomplish same thing as pulling a fader down. NOT THE CASE!

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-06-16 17:04:20)

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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

> You talked me into using SUBMIX mode vs FREE MODE, so I am in SUBMIX.  Here is a capture of my TM

You can use what you want, I personally regard submix mode easier to understand.
Because if you click on an output, then you see the submix by looking at the fader position for this HW output for all
- HW inputs (from HW inputs on your recording interface) and
- SW playback channels (from PC)

> I guess I had just assumed that a MUTE on a channel would accomplish same thing as pulling a fader down.
> NOT THE CASE!

Take your time .. there were reasons to do it this way .. the more you get used to it, the better you will understand.

Once understood, it really shines and you get ideas how to do smth, because all follows logic principles.

Focusrite Mixcontrol I never fully understood in contrast to that, Mixcontrol was inflexible and an instant fight.
So .. since 6+y I have found my "piece in mind" with TM FX.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

Yes, for sure I am getting this concept now.  I was initially very confused submix vs free and why the bottom "route label" changed, but on what strip I clicked on but it's starting to make sense now.  Even to the point where I was playing around with playback levels going to each of my Dynaudio monitors. 

The MUTE vs. FADER is still weird to me - I am glad I figured it out.  I have it doing EXACTLY what I want now and even made a custom MUTE GROUP!  I see now that the MUTE totally KILLS that out bus entirely, everywhere.  Pulling down the fader still sends the signal out of the hardware but stops it from coming uot of the monitors.  NICE!

I have to ask one last q for now then.. it seems that totalmix itself does NOT alter the actual signal level of anything going INTO THE DAW, right?  If I pump up the fader on my kemper spdif for example, that is only making it come otu dynaudio louder and not making it go into the DAW hotter (or less hot).  All of the gain staging must be done going INTO the rme, yes?

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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

Oops  one other thing to add.

I also had to pull down the fader entirely when in submix mode for HARDWARE INPUT SPDIF when I have the HARDWARE OUTPUT selected.  If i did not do that, it feedsback like crazy when in reamp mode.

https://ibb.co/jWfCm4v

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-06-16 17:40:40)

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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

nateandrews wrote:

I have to ask one last q for now then.. it seems that totalmix itself does NOT alter the actual signal level of anything going INTO THE DAW, right?  If I pump up the fader on my kemper spdif for example, that is only making it come otu dynaudio louder and not making it go into the DAW hotter (or less hot).  All of the gain staging must be done going INTO the rme, yes?

Yes. Incoming audio is passed through (unaltered) to the application / DAW.

BTW .. there is an option in the driver settings to enable FX on the inputs if needed
[ x ] "EQ+D for record" (default: off)
if the recording interface has an FX chip built-in...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-06-16 17:44:47)

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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

nateandrews wrote:

Oops  one other thing to add.

I also had to pull down the fader entirely when in submix mode for HARDWARE INPUT SPDIF when I have the HARDWARE OUTPUT selected.  If i did not do that, it feedsback like crazy when in reamp mode.

https://ibb.co/jWfCm4v

Yes, you need to think about signal flow ... but there are luckily solutions.

If it should turn out for you, having to switch between two or three settings very often, then save the different routings to snapshots to make it easier for you to recall (and not to forget to solve feedback problems..).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

9 Reply by nateandrews (edited by nateandrews 2020-06-16 21:42:42)

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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

Yes, I am using presets, snapshots, mute and fader groups etc. Starting to see how powerful TOTAL MIX is and why so many people swear by RME.  I have also saved many custom DIGICHECK layouts - LOVE that metering!

So here is a long and very interesting story that might help some random person if they happen to stumble onto this post and have a similar issue as it pertains to guitar DI tracking.  This is something I never, ever would have noticed if I was not dedicating time to learning DI and REAMPING.  I have never actually listened to what any of my guitars sound like as a bare DI signal.  I'm always playing through super high gain stuff and just chugging away.

I have a TON of guitars, 60 or more...  mostly all pointy head rock/metal shred stuff, especially Ibanez and USA Jackson/Charvel.  I've soldered in just about every high gain pickup you can get from Duncan, Dimarzio, EMG, Suhr, and they all sound diff and play diff and I love them all.

So on to my point of the story.  As I'm recording the guitars, I am using DIGICHECK and looking at my ANALOG 1 input level (this is the DI from Countryman Type 85) and shooting for a -4dBfs to -6Bbfs peak on my absolute hardest right hand bashing of strings.  As I am doing the level setting of the DI into ANALOG 1, the actual DI sound itself is MUTED in totalmix and I'm only hearing the delicious chugga chugga high gain lovely stuff from the Kemper (5150 or Mesa) that is coming out of SPDIF.

Here is where it gets super interesting.  TWO of my guitars made CLICKING SOUNDS on the recorded DI!  Not a DIGITAL DISTORTION TOO HOT, but a CLICKING sound and usually always on the most aggressive part of the rhythm.  I am 100% positive they did not clip on the way in.

I re-recorded them as well as 6 other random guitars and listened back.  Again, those same 2 guitars have the CLICKING sounds in the DI and all of the other guitars are perfect.  I then switched to SPDIF output to record them thinking maybe it was teh DI box or maybe ANALOG 1.  Nope, same results. Those same 2 guitars have a clicking sound inside of their DI's, none of the other guitars did, so clearly it is something specific to those 2 guitars.  Can you guess what it was??









PICKUP HEIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I lowered the bridge pickup on each guitar by about 2.5mm and all of the clicking is GONE!  HOLY SHIT.  One guitar was an Ibanez RG3120 with a TONE ZONE and the other was Ibanez USRG30 Custom, oddly enough, also with a TONE ZONE in the bridge!  Sooo.... It's a bit odd that both guitars happen to have the same pickup in them and perhaps this pickup is very sensitive to its height?  Don't know, and I'm not going to raise pickups on other guitars to see if I can make them click, too.  In this case, those 2 guitars are now click free after lowering the bridge pickup slightly.

My main #1 rhythm guitar has a Duncan Nazgul in the bridge and it is set REALLY HIGH up and does not click at all, so this does lead me to think it's something specific to those Dimarzio's, possibly?

That's my story.  If you ever get clicking on your guitar DI and you are positive you are not clipping going in, check your pickup height.  End story.

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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

> I am using DIGICHECK and looking at my ANALOG 1 input level (this is the DI from Countryman Type 85)
> and shooting for a -4dBfs to -6Bbfs peak on my absolute hardest right hand bashing of strings.

Nice, I am using AUTOSET on my INSTR inputs for getting the proper gain. Then I am using two different INSTR inputs for either Humbucker or Single Coil pickups (+3 dB for single coil). Now where I got a nice Jazz Guitar with a lot of dynamics and more output by that I have to introduce a 3rd Instr Input for that.

> PICKUP HEIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I lowered the bridge pickup on each guitar by about 2.5mm and all of the clicking is GONE!

Could it perhaps be a mechanical think that you push with the plectrum onto the pickup if its too high ?
Simply hit with the plec onto the top of the pickup and then look during normal playing whether you touch the top of the pickup with the plec.

As far as I remember such hits onto a pickup are also partially delivered together with the "good signal".

> That's my story.  If you ever get clicking on your guitar DI and you are positive you are not clipping going in,
> check your pickup height.  End story.

Pickup height is a very important topic to guitar sound anyway. If its too high and depending on the force of the magnets then the strings can be captured a bit and do not have free motion.
A friend of mine is wizard in terms of such and other fine adjustments. He also uses consequently the pole pieces to adjust on normal pickups the output level of each string properly. There its also important to honor, that on most pickups you have only adjustable pole pieces for one of the two Humbucker coils. Also you need to honor a higher stings amplitude at the neck. And the output of the strings is different.
Also honor for the dynamic of the E-guitar strings the core is important, so you have two groups: E-A-D and G-B-E.
On a normal Les Paul you bring the Pole piece on E a bit down, D around stays, D you need to bring up.
Difficult to describe, but everybody has his own tricks. At the end I have a very balanced tone.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-06-17 06:13:28)

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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

> I have a TON of guitars, 60 or more..
OMG .. I forgot to comment on that, awesome ;-) Don't you get crazy sometimes when its time to change the strings ? wink
I personally concentrated now on only five selected models.

> In regards to routing with TM FX
Did I give you already this link about my current setup ?
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … -DURec-DE/

You can build up nice things with an RME interface .. a parallel effect loop for the amp to retain a more punchy signal.
Using recording interfaces with DURec as tape deck for recording some spontaneous ideas much quicker compared to having to start-up Windows and Cubase.
The instr inputs on the newer recording interfaces have now 1MOhm. So its easy to plug in "normal" guitars, don't know how it is with EMG / high power output style of PUs.

With some tricks I get a very nice tone using two Mics in a silent recording environmet.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

Ha, i liked the zz top meets nugent clip there.  smile

I use ERNIE BALL strings, buying when 3 packs are $10.  Yes, the upkeep can be a bit intense but I love to wrench on guitars and solder in pickups and tweak their playability to make them feel like warm butter.  The older 1987 to 1992 Ibanez Rg's with the Edge tremolo are my bread and butter.  Those are some of the best guitars ever made.

I will read more on your blog, thanks for sharing all of the help.  I am really liking the COUNTRYMAN DI box with the 10M ohm input  My only complaint about FF400 was the 500k ohm INST input and that is no longer a concern now with the DI box.

13 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-06-17 20:15:34)

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Re: MUTE vs FADER pulled down reamping with SPDIF

> Ha, i liked the zz top meets nugent clip there.

Thanks Nate, very kind from you :-)

> I will read more on your blog, thanks for sharing all of the help.

Cool, have fun.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13