Why do you actually need the SSL Mixer. That is not yet quite clear to me.  In theorie .. Mixing you do much better and more flexible in the DAW and monitoring in TM FX. The UFX offers enough possibilities for Monitor A/B, 2 Phones, etc..

Or do you work a lot with outboard equipment? But even this you could maybe integrate even better by expanding your setup with an additional AD/DA conver and to connect it through ADAT, see below.

I don't understand how an AES port is supposed to help. With googling you will quickly find that an AES port just like SPDIF has only 2 channels and it is a digital port. With which device you would perform AD/DA then ? Will one more AES port help ? Most likely not. This is not ADAT with 8ch !

So if you really want to have more analog ports in your setup, then you need to add an AD/DA converter via ADAT to your setup. If you want to stay with RME, then that would be for example the ADI-8 DS Mk III
-> https://www.rme-audio.de/de_adi-8-ds-mk-iii.html

But as I said, the setup / your demand is not fully clear to me.
Do you have a drawing of your current and desired setup that you can share with us ?
And maybe describe how your workflow is and what signal flow you desire ?

Dear, Waedi,
I think you have understood 'exactly' what I meant and I tried to achieve
I am a huge fan of 'clean' & 'supreme' converter of RME since day one.
But I genuinely want to try something new in my music career.
That is doing hybrid mixing/summing!
And after having thorough research, I did find SSL X-Desk to fit in my current setup (to kick off my digital/analog hybrid setup)!

It is a good little unit to start my analog summing, 'but' I do not want to ditch or compromise the
power of UFX.
So, I posted this question here

Because, expanding outputs without compromising DA quality of UFX is something I am not clear of.
(*I have not studied Audio Engineering professionally so bear that in mind!)

So long story short!
I want to utilize my UFX to the max!!
And I was looking for a good analog summing box that can do the last 10% for my personal mixes u know
So I was searching and searching,
drawing down to some candidates including,
- neve 5060
- SSL X-desk
- a few other summing units without faders

And SSL X-desk seems a good starting option for me, and by doing that,
I am planning on building my own, 500 series rack, so basically
I am planning on building my own 'mini' SSL analog console

To some, this may sound waste of money, to Digital ITB mixing engineers, this may sound insane,
but this is something that inspire me!
To get the best from the both world!

Amazing conversion capability from RME!
Amazing analog glueing mojo from SSL!

So, yes.

To conclude, first thing first, I had to find the right answer to expand my channel out
'without' compromising the DA conversion quality from my RME UFX mk1.

So yes, thanks again, but um, I happened to read about 'flowfish'...unit? that can expand extra 16 channel outputs?

(*Because actually, SSL X-desk can hold up to 16 channels~ 20 channels, so I actually need, 8 or.. a few more.. for monitor out...?)

Yea, I am trying to get the numbers right! and find the best solution!
as long as output expansion does not degrade the DA unit, then it should be fine,
but as you mentioned, if the behringer model degrades the sonic conversion quality of my UFX,
then I'd say no to that..

Thank you so much

Ah I see.
But there is one thing that you have to keep in mind,
you say you want to keep the superb converters of the UFX.
Adding extra analog channels is not possible on those converters,
The expansion unit is a own DAC.
8 channels is possible, but a few more is not possible (additional channels).
You can get 8 additional channels and the already existing analog outputs of the UFX.
Ferrofish has 16 and 32 channel converters, they are not useful in your case.
It comes all back to what Ramses recommended, ADI-8-DS mklll !
This is the best quality RME converters and has exactly the connections that fit into your set.
The adat to connect to the UFX and the D-sub for the SSL.
Keep in mind that cabling is a huge mess and expensive part.
SSL are not stupid, they fitted D-sub connectors to the unit for reasons.

So, if I re-summarize my status,
nothing has been fixed

So, I was posting as 'what if' situation.
"what if I want to connect SSL X-desk to my current setup...? for analog summing / mixing?"

um, so Ramses, SSL X-desk can get up to a total of 20 line-level channels max.
oh boy... I am indeed getting into a serious situation here haha

I never thought of expanding channel outputs because I've been working totally in-the-box.
But, since I am now looking for an analog summing mixer (and most summing mixer can take
more than 8 channels), I just want something to expand channel outs from my UFX.

And as you have mentioned I think... ADI-8 seems the best option for me.

I am also surprised, that there aren't many options for expanding... I basically need another DA converter..
And that is a sad part, because, most UFX-grade DA converters cost 'very' much...
which means I may need to spend as much as getting 'X-desk' haha...

I am looking for the best option ^_^
Thanks again for your thorough explanation

The reason why I am being so careful is, I do not want to compromise any audio sonic greatness of
- UFX
- SSL X-desk

I just need a good 'bridging' unit!

OR... maybe I can just use 8 channel outs from UFX... haha this can be my alternative option.
(this means I cannot utilize the remaining channel ins of X-desk summing mixer)

or.. I was thinking...
maybe what if I get a unit such as Cranborne ADAT500 unit,
it is a ADAT unit that has 8 channel direct outs, and it is DA unit so...
maybe I can connect this unit to expand the channel outs...?

I asked how many channels you need to get an idea how you could expand your current solution.

As you might know, 1 ADAT port can carry
- 8 channels at single speed (44.1/48 kHz)
- 4 channels at double speed (88.2/96 kHz)
- 2 channels at quad speed (176.4/192 kHz)

The UFX has two ADAT ports, so you could theoretically even connect two ADI-8-DS mklll.
Then you would have 6 (2 you need for monitors) + 8 + 8 = 22 channels
But everything at single speed.

If you would like to perform projects at double speed (88.2/96 kHz)
then you would have 6 (2 you need for monitors) + 8 = 14 channels
But then you could only onnect one ADI-8-DS mklll as you need the two ADAT ports towards the one ADI-8 DS...

I you should need a certain channel reserve, then you could also think about selling the UFX
and upgrading to an UFX+, by this you would have MADI.
MADI has the advantage to offer to you
- 64 channels at single speed (44.1/48 kHz)
- 32 channels at double speed (88.2/96 kHz)
- 16 channels at quad speed (176.4/192 kHz)

So even when recording in higher quality at double speed you would still have the
6 analog ports of your UFX+ and
up to 32 channels (in and out of course) for an additional AD/DA converter.

Then you could think of connecting either an ADI-8 QS (which has MADI) or other RME AD/DA converters.
You could also connect MIC preamps...
Or 3rd party products if this should be required for budget reasons.

You're welcome. It makes sense to ask what someone wants to do and finally it is also also interesting for me, because I also wanted to see whether something like such a mix desk would be useful or to discuss pros and cons.

After putting much time now into it I tend to say that I wouldn't like such a solution. And currently I even do not see the advantages for you. Even if you would connect external preamps or would use a mixbus then I have doubts whether this is the way to go, because if I look at technical specs, they are relatively low compared to RME equipment.

Maybe explainable for an analog Mixing Desk .. But if I see the flexibility of TM FX routing and e.g. also the very comfortably handling of external devices even in Cubase, then I tend to say "save the money for this" and rather than that try to connect such devices as close as possible to the digitally connected devices with superb converter chips.

I personally would consequently spend the money more for such things:

• get an ARC USB to be able to work very comfortably with the TM FX control room

• get an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE to get the most out of your monitors and phones and having very useful features on top, that no other device can give you on the market for that price

• while talking about monitors and phones .. I would not add analog signal paths, I would optimize the equipment in terms of signal flows and useability and more think about investing into maybe even better monitors,  room acoustic, phones. I think this gives you more total quality than simply thinking to have a summing console alone give you more quality / mojo, in fact it results in worse SNR/THD values, thats all I can see ..
  

Audio signals need to be converted to digital, before they can be processed digital (be it for routing or transport).
Therefore you will see in every technical manual from RME about mic preamps and converters a section about A/D and sometimes also D/A (for phones or appropriate outputs in case of a converter). Check the RME manuals and you will see.

I am not sure ... later you say you need only 8 outputs ... if it is only like that .. why MADI ?

You can check the RME manuals yourself at any time on your own to get more clarity ... Every manual has the chapters
- "Technical Specification" and
- "Latency and Monitoring"

The 1st gives you not only SNR and THD, but also information about the different input sensitivities and output levels (reference levels) that the device supports for AD and DA. This is interesting information in terms of how good this matches to your other equipment with the goal to get optimum SNR values.

The latter gives you information about how fast the AD and DA converters are at different sample rates. The newer converters are usually faster resulting in even less latency (for routing on the device to phones or between analog inputs and outputs).

You're welcome. And still it stays interesting if you need only 8 analog outputs .. see below.

Careful an UFX II would not help. Why ? It has the same channel layout as the UFX.

If you only need 8 Analog output channels and fewer input channels then you do not need MADI.

Get a piece of paper. Draw two boxes. Recording interface and AD/DA converter. Draw one bigger line between them to represent digital transfer of 8 ch at single speed. Draw the ports for analog inputs and outputs on the converter. On the inputs write "A/D". On the output write "D/A". Between those two boxes (UFX and ADDA converter) we have digital transfer of audio data. Inside of the UFX we have digital transfer of audio data (the routing matrix / TotalMix FX). Inside of the AD/DA converter we have digital transfer of data when routing audio to a phones output.

Digital data transfer is lossless. What counts:
- quality of AD/DA conversion
- jitter free transport.
RME is in both cases excallent and in terms of jitter elemination you should make yourself familiar with the concept of Steady Clock, thats an invention from RME. More information about this interesting topic you can get here on youtube. Last recently Matthias releases very valuable information what it brings to you ... in short, a lot !
Please see here: https://www.rme-audio.de/steadyclock-fs.html

RMEs philosophy here is to make a very accurate conversion from analog to digital and digital to analog. Without adding any "mojo". Your true analog audio signal is being converted to digital "as best as possible. And once it is digital, then digital processing like routing or transport between devices through ADAT, SPDIF, AES, MADI, AVB, .. is possible without any loss.

After reading the manuals of the SSL summing system it appears to me that you need 8 analog inputs and outputs and best is if your devices have DB-25 plugs according to the Tascam standard.

Please check yourself the specification and different use cases as described in the installation manual for the SSL device.
https://www.solidstatelogic.com/assets/ … _Guide.pdf

Based on the Example 4 in this manual I think that 8 inputs and outputs should be sufficient.

But from the technical specification I am not so impressed, so that I would try to avoid using such a console and as I mentioned I would put the money into other improvements. But thats my view on things, your mileage may vary.

So find below the Drawing from SSL and my comments to it.

I collected and put together technical Specs for comparison. I think you are better off connecting all straight to RME devices and then work with TM FX in terms of routing. And as I said, Cubase has meanwhile nice comfortably handling of external devices including something like a "ping" to measure the delay by this ...

Here different scenarios .. I still need time to make the final drawing for you which I would go for.
But maybe this highlights to you the different possibilities ..

So please wait for my final drawing it needs still some time...

Wow... Mr.Ramses, thanks for amazing guideline.
I am super overwhelmed and it will take some time for me to digest.
So much appreciated.

I just want to ask you, from your personal taste,
if you'd integrate 'any' analog mixing console for 'analog' summing,
could you recommend any summing mixer/device that you believe it will be a 'plus' rather than 'minus'?!

I totally respect your view on integrating SSL X-desk or any other, may degrade in conversion,
but let's say, you want to integrate analog mixer to your ITB workflow,

what would it be?

I am really curious.
Are you totally working in the box...?

I am also working in the box except stem mixing and tracking I use hardware pre + compressor + eq.
(I am not sure if this workflow can be seen as 100% ITB but yeah..)

What analog outboard gears would suffice you?

Thanks so much!

Thanks!
Wow, thank you so much for your explanation and direction!
Well understood
Oh, actually, if I may, I would like to give you my personal setup:
- Mac mini
- UFX mk1
- Grace Design 101 (pre)
- DBX 160a (for bass/drum compression mostly)
- Avalon 747sp (Vocal light compression/stem re-tracking (lightly)) <-- mostly I use this as main
- BSS DPR-402 (Also other buss compression sometimes, I find this a bit harsh, so not so often used)
- Behringer px3000 patchbay
- I do not own UFX ARC USB but I do own ARC first version with 6 buttons on top and this thing is really handy! (I did customized all my preference here)
- Monitors: Fostex PM-1 (mk1) and other cheap HiFi speakers for a/b comparison
- Yamaha MG124cx for synths/hardware instruments routing and recording

um, the reason I was planning on getting some other outboard hardware gear was mainly because, I really enjoy recording and re-tracking on Avalon 747sp unit (maybe it is personal taste, but 747 unit really gives me the sound that I want, and it never fails, something that my plugins cannot do... so analog 'mojo' I was referring was maybe more to do with hardware 'compression' and 'eq' )

So yeah, basically I just wanted to expand.
Because for now, digital gears, I am really satisfied.
No complaining with my daw, Cubase Pro 11.
Mac osx is crashless.
Waves, Softube, all my plugins do provide a good sonic result

But I found myself, really becoming more intuitive and the result was somehow better, after changing my workflow with an additional Daw Controller. That was Avid Artist Mix.

So I realized, 'maybe I am the type who likes working with faders and touching EQ knobs and really work with ears rather than mouse..'

So that drove me to look for a summing/mixing hardware fader unit and colorization unit.
Those two are: SSL X-desk + Cranborne Audio 500ADAT

But with all that being put out,
your last reply got me to reconsider. And really, thoroughly check what would be beneficial for my workflow

But I guess, I need to compromise 'some' to gain 'some'.
I think any increase in AD/DA traveling will little by little degrade sonic quality.

I will thoroughly check myself and balance it out.
Thank you, Ramses

Much appreciated.
(Sorry for my language, English is not my native )

Awsome!!
Oh, yes! definitely, Monitor speakers are my very first priority (just that I did not mention it here)
*I bought mine almost 15 years ago, been working with these budget monitors but somehow, my hearing was well grown with it (?) so I just kept on using it. I wonder if I make sense. (So, Fostex PM-1, if I mix with these, I get fairly transparent result from other environments e.g. Inside car, with other hifi speakers and so on)

But yes. I am planning on upgrading my monitors first Also interested in Avantone's mid-range monitors too.
Your recommendation monitors looking hella supreme! Just read the review on Sound on Sound. Must be superb.

But my budget for monitors would be around 1k.. so I will see.

The reason is, of course, budget-friendly moves are fine but I have finally decided to mix my own and also create my own beats too (I've been collaborating with other beatmakers but now I have decided to do it all 'DIY' except mastering).

So that is why I've been researching hard to maximize and prepare for the most efficient and well-treated home studio for myself

*Oh! my parents are from Asia so English is my 3rd language.

Got things all ticked.

For now, it is hard to fully acoustically treat my working space but I try my best to set diffusers and carpets (nothing on the ceiling unfortunately yet...)

But yeah. Thanks for your suggestion.
I do not think USB ARC (latest model) is not compatible with my UFX mk1 is it?! I am not so sure if I would get much more advantages from it because I am really satisfied with curremt blue ARC mk1 unit