• Registered: 2021-09-29
  • Posts: 4

Topic: Advice on Attenuators

Hi everyone,

Excited to receive my ADI-2 DAC last week, which is connected to the ATC actives SCM19A via XLR. Input is a CXC CD transport connected via coaxial. After 1 week of listening, my volume is typically between -25dB to -35dB (with AutoRef ON at -5dBu). I read that the ideal volume should be 0dB for maximum benefits.

Should I get an attenuator since I can't do any adjustment on the ATC?
What are the specs I need to look out for when getting the attenuator? The recommended JTS MA-123 is not available in my country.

Appreciate all advice. Thank you.

Swee

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-09-29 15:17:21)

  • ramses
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Re: Advice on Attenuators

What about those who are also mentioned in https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25399:

Hosa ATT448
https://www.hyperactive.de/marken/hosa- … sa-att-448

Pro Co Max20
Audio-Technica AT8202
Shure A15AS

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2021-09-29
  • Posts: 4

Re: Advice on Attenuators

Hi Ramses,

I might be able to get Hosa (20,30,40) or Audio Technica (10,20,30). Which one is more suitable and what is the level of attenuation that I need?
Thank you.

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-09-30 15:32:20)

  • ramses
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Re: Advice on Attenuators

ADI-2 DAC FS: manual ch. 30.2 Analog Outputs
XLR
- Output level switchable +19 dBu, +13 dBu, +7 dBu, +1 dBu @ 0 dBFS
- Signal to Noise ratio (SNR) @ +7/+13/+19 dBu: 120 dB RMS unweighted, 123 dBA
- Signal to Noise ratio (SNR) @ +1 dBu: 117 dB RMS unweighted, 120 dBA

I understood you this way, that you have Auto Reflevel enabled.
If this is the case, then you have with a volume setting of 0 at the device: 0 dBFS = +19 dBu = SNR of 123 dBA.

Next I understood your usual volume setting on the ADI-2 DAC is betweeen -25 and -35 (dB).
What I did not understand is your additional remark: "with AutoRef ON at -5dBu" ... don't know what you mean by this.

Lets assume this was simply "a mistake" .. and that - with Auto Ref Level turned on - you use a volume setting of -25 - -35dB.

Two possibilities
a) use a fix reflevel or
b) let auto reflevel turned on and let it pick the best reflevel for you whatever volume (or EQ settings) you dial-in

I like option b), because then Autoreflevel also considers B/T and PEQ settings, which is not the case with fix ref level settings. With fix revlevel settings you could get distortion when having the volume set to 0dBFS and adding volume by Equalizer settings (be it B/T or PEQ).

You should not be too religious about SNR .. the values are on such a high level, that you should not hear any noise ...
But .. lets simply assume you would choose a fix Reflevel of +19 dBu and turn down the level down to -35, then your resulting SNR would be 123 - 35 = 103 dBA. Maybe not so cool.

See screenshot from Excel, that I created 4 u...
By this you can get a "feeling" for the different values and their relationship to each other.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/icxta1bdrove0 … S.jpg?dl=1

So please review the information that you gave
- whether you turned auto reflevel on and
- whether you listen with a volume set between -25 - -35
Or in other words, that I created the Excel correctly for you.

If all is fine, then I think you could e.g. keep Auto Ref Level on and use an Attenuator of -20 dB.

Then you can now dial-in a volume between -5 and -15 dB and by this
- the resulting volume will be the same like now
- but with a higher resulting SNR which will be in the range if 118 - 123 dBA

With kind highest SNR (of -123 dBA) at volume setting of -6 and -12 (dBFS) (if you did not use B/T or PEQ).
But this you won't hear and is irrelevant for the quality of audio.
Feel free to use any volume that you want.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2012-01-08
  • Posts: 55

Re: Advice on Attenuators

ownemail wrote:

Hi everyone,

Excited to receive my ADI-2 DAC last week, which is connected to the ATC actives SCM19A via XLR. Input is a CXC CD transport connected via coaxial. After 1 week of listening, my volume is typically between -25dB to -35dB (with AutoRef ON at -5dBu). I read that the ideal volume should be 0dB for maximum benefits.

Should I get an attenuator since I can't do any adjustment on the ATC?
What are the specs I need to look out for when getting the attenuator? The recommended JTS MA-123 is not available in my country.

Appreciate all advice. Thank you.

Swee

Sorry for not answering to your initial question. I think ramses is far the best to do so but I would like to know your opinion about the ADI-2 DAC fs and the SCM19As... ATCs are among my favorite speakers and specifically the 19As I think would fit in my room well! Unfortunately the SCM20AT are way too expensive
Thnx!!!!

6 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-09-30 06:41:34)

  • KaiS
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  • Registered: 2020-02-05
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Re: Advice on Attenuators

ownemail wrote:

Hi Ramses,

I might be able to get Hosa (20,30,40) or Audio Technica (10,20,30). Which one is more suitable and what is the level of attenuation that I need?
Thank you.

The AT‘s range does fit better.

You probably end up at -10 or -20 dB attenuation.

KaiS's Website

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-09-29 19:00:28)

  • ramses
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Re: Advice on Attenuators

KaiS wrote:
ownemail wrote:

Hi Ramses,

I might be able to get Hosa (20,30,40) or Audio Technica (10,20,30). Which one is more suitable and what is the level of attenuation that I need?
Thank you.

The AT‘s range does fit better.

You probably end up at 10 or -20 dB attenuation.

Shure is a little bit less expensive @thomann.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • bejoro
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Re: Advice on Attenuators

Is there a significant difference in built quality between a JTS MA-123 an an Audio-Technica AT8202?
The Audio-Technica costs almost four times the price of the JTS.

bejoro's Website

  • Registered: 2021-09-29
  • Posts: 4

Re: Advice on Attenuators

Ramses, thank you for your very detailed explanation. Helps me understand a lot. I'm sorry but i'm unable to access the file you have created in the dropbox.

On the AutoRef part, what i was referring to was what i see on the volume screen which shows '-5 dBu (Auto)'.

I'm looking to purchase a pair of attenuators and try it. Frankly, i'm not sure how much the sound will improve because it already sounded so good at my current listening volume. And I have read mixed reviews of using attenuators.

Meanwhile, i'm enjoying the RME, clearly a step up from my previous DAC/preamp.

ramses wrote:

ADI-2 DAC FS: manual ch. 30.2 Analog Outputs
XLR
- Output level switchable +19 dBu, +13 dBu, +7 dBu, +1 dBu @ 0 dBFS
- Signal to Noise ratio (SNR) @ +7/+13/+19 dBu: 120 dB RMS unweighted, 123 dBA
- Signal to Noise ratio (SNR) @ +1 dBu: 117 dB RMS unweighted, 120 dBA

I understood you this way, that you have Auto Reflevel enabled.
If this is the case, then you have with a volume setting of 0 at the device: 0 dBFS = +19 dBu = SNR of 123 dBA.

Next I understood your usual volume setting on the ADI-2 DAC is betweeen -25 and -35 (dB).
What I did not understand is your additional remark: "with AutoRef ON at -5dBu" ... don't know what you mean by this.

Lets assume this was simply "a mistake" .. and that - with Auto Ref Level turned on - you use a volume setting of -25 - -35dB.

Two possibilities
a) use a fix reflevel or
b) let auto reflevel turned on and let it pick the best reflevel for you whatever volume (or EQ settings) you dial-in

I like option b), because then Autoreflevel also considers B/T and PEQ settings, which is not the case with fix ref level settings. With fix revlevel settings you could get distortion when having the volume set to 0dBFS and adding volume by Equalizer settings (be it B/T or PEQ).

You should not be too religious about SNR .. the values are on such a high level, that you should not hear any noise ...
But .. lets simply assume you would choose a fix Reflevel of +19 dBu and turn down the level down to -35, then your resulting SNR would be 123 - 35 = 103 dBA. Maybe not so cool.

I created now an Excel for you...
By this you can get a "feeling" for the different values and their relationship to each other.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qcidlfqd07g1 … .xlsx?dl=1

So please review the information that you gave
- whether you turned auto reflevel on and
- whether you listen with a volume set between -25 - -35
Or in other words, that I created the Excel correctly for you.

If all is fine, then I think you could e.g. keep Auto Ref Level on and use an Attenuator of -20 dB.

Then you can now dial-in a volume between -5 and -15 dB and by this
- the resulting volume will be the same like now
- but with a higher resulting SNR which will be in the range if 118 - 123 dBA

With kind highest SNR (of -123 dBA) at volume setting of -6 and -12 (dBFS) (if you did not use B/T or PEQ).
But this you won't hear and is irrelevant for the quality of audio.
Feel free to use any volume that you want.

10 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-09-30 15:31:21)

  • ramses
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Re: Advice on Attenuators

Could be that you won't hear an improvement in sound. If I remember right the volume is implemented in such a way, that even -20 or -30 dB volume reduction should not hurt.
Sorry but I do not remember exactly and do not have exact figures regarding that point.

I try to trust me ears, if it sounds good, then it is good.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/icxta1bdrove07b/2021-09-30%2016_13_26-Attenuation%20ADI-2%20DAC%20FS.jpg?dl=1

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2021-09-29
  • Posts: 4

Re: Advice on Attenuators

DomieMic65,

ATC is my favourite as well, having upgraded from the SCM19 to the SCM19A.
One of my main consideration when choosing a new DAC/preamp was if it will match the ATC. There are many brands on the market which emphasised on how the DAC has been designed to work directly with active monitors but RME was talking more about the headphone and IEM output. Hence i was a bit hesitant initially and it took me a lot of reading on this and other forums before i decide with the purchase.

Initial impressions were favourable. The RME has no issue driving the SCM19A. The one immediate thing i noticed was how quiet the RME is. Noise I used to hear previously on my DAC/preamp were gone. This was particularly obvious when i listen to older CD recordings where the 'hiss' used to be audible.
Another point is the instruments are much clearer and distinct from the vocals, not sure if this is what people described as more 'analytical' sounding. As such, this may come down to personal preference.

DomieMic65 wrote:

Sorry for not answering to your initial question. I think ramses is far the best to do so but I would like to know your opinion about the ADI-2 DAC fs and the SCM19As... ATCs are among my favorite speakers and specifically the 19As I think would fit in my room well! Unfortunately the SCM20AT are way too expensive
Thnx!!!!

  • Registered: 2020-06-12
  • Posts: 9

Re: Advice on Attenuators

bejoro wrote:

Is there a significant difference in built quality between a JTS MA-123 an an Audio-Technica AT8202?
The Audio-Technica costs almost four times the price of the JTS.

Did anyone compare the low-priced JTS MA-123 with the much more expensive ones from Shure, Audio-Technica etc.?
What are the differences?

13 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2021-10-03 22:14:43)

  • Registered: 2019-01-07
  • Posts: 1,462

Re: Advice on Attenuators

Differences?

Probably very little in terms of Collapsing Soundstages, and all the other Audio BS.

For me, do the Attenuators allow me to operate my ADI-2 DAC at a satisfying listening level, that extracts the best from the DAC?

My Adjustable "Hosas" were quite good, but perhaps a bit much.   I was running out of Volume with some material.

Some months ago, I sourced some custom Attenuators from a nearby vendor that are perfect for me.   Neutrik Barrels, 1% Dale/Vishay Resistors, etc.   Superb Quality item, and very reasonably priced.  I LIKE to be pleasantly surprised! 

https://i.ibb.co/vqsBZkV/image000001.jpg

I might have made more noise about them here, but am not convinced that this small vendor is prepared to handle an onslaught of International Orders, but..."If you Snooze, you Lose"

**I might suggest that those interested use the Contact Info included in the link below, and communicate with Mr. O'Neil directly before ordering. 

Speaking for myself?  The Product he sent me was First Class!

Check for yourself..

https://naiant.com/

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes
  • Registered: 2012-01-08
  • Posts: 55

Re: Advice on Attenuators

ownemail wrote:

DomieMic65,

ATC is my favourite as well, having upgraded from the SCM19 to the SCM19A.
One of my main consideration when choosing a new DAC/preamp was if it will match the ATC. There are many brands on the market which emphasised on how the DAC has been designed to work directly with active monitors but RME was talking more about the headphone and IEM output. Hence i was a bit hesitant initially and it took me a lot of reading on this and other forums before i decide with the purchase.

Initial impressions were favourable. The RME has no issue driving the SCM19A. The one immediate thing i noticed was how quiet the RME is. Noise I used to hear previously on my DAC/preamp were gone. This was particularly obvious when i listen to older CD recordings where the 'hiss' used to be audible.
Another point is the instruments are much clearer and distinct from the vocals, not sure if this is what people described as more 'analytical' sounding. As such, this may come down to personal preference.

DomieMic65 wrote:

Sorry for not answering to your initial question. I think ramses is far the best to do so but I would like to know your opinion about the ADI-2 DAC fs and the SCM19As... ATCs are among my favorite speakers and specifically the 19As I think would fit in my room well! Unfortunately the SCM20AT are way too expensive
Thnx!!!!

Thank you for replying!
The 19A will probably be my go to next speaker...
Post your impressions with the attenuators when you get them!
In my case with RCA connection to power amp were an (subjective) improvement ... I can use the whole range of the DAC volume even going up to 0dbu in loud listening sessions!! The 19s will love the extra oomph I suppose!
Enjoy your great system!!