Topic: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

Hi - I have recently purchased an RME ADI-2 Pro with the purpose to use it as a digital DSP.

The chain:

spdif coax in (from Sonos) -> RME ADI-2 Pro (only as DSP) (spdif coax out) -> DAC -> AMP

I know I can use the RME ADI-2 Pro as DAC, but I'd prefer to use it only as digital DSP. So my question is - What setting gives me the optimal setup for this? I have been using it in AD/DA mode, but is there any way to skip/disable the digital volume, so that I have the DAC control volume. If I set the volume at 0dB, the meters show red 'OVR', suggesting clipping. Setting it up at something lower suggests that there's additional volume-related processing that I'd like to avoid. Suggestions are welcome.

2

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

To use processing on the digital output you need to use SETUP - Options - Device Mode / DSD - Dig Out Source Main Out. Your remark about the 'DAC control volume' does not make sense to me. With digital processing you do need a digital volume control, or you will easily get clipping. Changing the volume within the DAC chip won't help.

The modes are all clearly described in the manual, with easy to understand block diagrams. They show that only AD/DA mode and DAC mode fit this application.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

Hi Matthias,

Thanks for your inputs. I have finally set up the RME ADI-2 Pro as DAC (got rid of the external DAC), and now my setup is

Sonos spdif coax -> RME ADI-2 Pro (with PEQ) XLR -> Topping A-90 -> headphones

Now the questions that have been bothering me, and I am sure you can clarify, are -

1. The input digital signal from Sonos (or from any other digital sources) is very close to clipping (OVR), and if I add Parametric EQ to it, the output signal at 0dB is obviously getting clipped, so I have dialed down the volume to say -12dB. The question is how does the RME ADI-2 do pre-DAC headroom management? Everywhere, I see there's a suggestion of -6dB pre-DAC headroom adjustment to make the headroom available for EQ gain, but I do not see anything like that to adjust in the RME ADI-2. Moreover, my worry is that if the signal gets clipped after DSP -> DAC (assuming this is the sequence), the digital volume gain reduction will be working on the clipped signal, which will not help much.

2. In the chain of signal flow, where does the reference level adjustment come in? Am I thinking this correctly Digital input -> Ref Level -> DSP -> Digital Volume -> DAC -> Analog output?

Please let me know so that I can sleep better at night and prevent eyebags from appearing.

Thanks!

Dehati

4 (edited by KaiS 2021-10-16 19:18:34)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

1. Internal headroom is 24dB, see manual page 26.

2. “Reference Level” is working with relays, switching gain in the analog domain, after the DAC.
This way the DAC chip always works with optimum SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio).
“Reference Level” has no effect on the digital i/o.


The “OVR-” / (Over-) labeling in the meter partly is a bit miss-leading.
Over does not exist in the digital domain, there is no digital value to represent it.
Over can (but must not) be defined as a certain number of adjacent samples hitting full scale.
Typical i.e., 3 samples, defined in Red Book CD.

A lot of Pop CDs are mastered to this standard, google “Loudness War”

If these are played without level change (0 dB gain, no DSP) they are hitting full scale all the time.
Soundwise, lowering the gain doesn’t change or improve anything.


ADI-2 Pro’s follows internal standards, optimized for it’s use, see manual page 31:
For digital I/Os, Over appears when the signal is at the maximum possible level. As usual in digital audio, Over is already displayed even if there is no real overload.


Final note:
You did right, when using DSP functions, lowering the gain some, until you stay clear from OVR is the correct approach.

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

Thanks for the headroom info. Considering I am using the RME ADI-2 Pro with digital inputs (coax) and analog outputs (XLR) (changed from the original topic, after forum member suggestions), what I still don't understand (even after reading the manual), is

1. How do the ref levels affect digital inputs (when the manual says it is about analog inputs)?

2. What is the sequence/flow of DSP, DAC, ref level adjustment and digital volume adjustments? I thought (applying common sense), that it will be

Digital input -> headroom, ref level gain adj -> DSP -> Digital volume -> DAC -> Analog output

What am I missing?

6

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

Is it really necessary to post this identical in two forums?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

7 (edited by ramses 2021-10-18 05:24:05)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

You have no ref levels in the digital domain.

MC wrote:

[...]The modes are all clearly described in the manual, with easy to understand block diagrams. They show that only AD/DA mode and DAC mode fit this application.

See block diagrams ch 17.3, 17.6
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_e.pdf

Example AD/DA Mode:
Digital IN (AES, Coax, Optical) -> Main Output 1/2 -> DSP-> Digital Out Source -> Digital Out (AES, Coax, Optical)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 (edited by dehati_paul 2021-10-18 20:14:50)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

MC wrote:

Is it really necessary to post this identical in two forums?

Hi Matthias,

Sorry for the double posting. Was not sure who is in which forum, but now knowing, I will stick to this forum.

The block diagrams show DSP/DAC, but do not show headroom management, digital volume, and ref level adjustments. Based on what you mentioned on ASR, can you please confirm or correct the following

Digital input -> digital headroom adjustment (-24dB) -> DSP -> Digital volume control -> DAC -> Analog ref level adjustment (+4dB to +24dB) -> Analog output

I may have asked the question in different ways, so at the risk of being repetitive, I would like to better understand the flow as I am not getting a clear answer.

Thanks,

Dehati

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

dehati_paul wrote:

The block diagrams show DSP/DAC, but do not show headroom management, digital volume, and ref level adjustments. Based on what you mentioned on ASR, can you please confirm or correct the following

Digital input -> digital headroom adjustment (-24dB) -> DSP -> Digital volume control -> DAC -> Analog ref level adjustment (+4dB to +24dB) -> Analog output

The internal headroom exists by a higher internal calculation bit depth, 42 bit according to manual page 64.
This maintains the sources’ full digital resolution all through the DSP/Volume processings.
Therefore, the user simply does not need to care about the internal levels.


You can look at it like this (bold = has headroom):

Digital input -> 24 dB extended digital headroom (42 bit calculations) -> DSP -> Digital volume control -> DAC -> analog ref. level adjustment steps (+4, +13, +19, +24 dBu) -> Analog output


Now that you are going analog it might be important to know:

If “Auto Reference Level” is “ON”, “Digital volume control” and “analog ref. level adjustment steps” work together to maintain full dynamic range / SNR over 20 dB of combined volume control.

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

KaiS - This is super helpful. Is there an SNR curve/table for various “Digital volume control” and “analog ref. level adjustment steps” combinations, that the “Auto Reference Level” = “ON” follows for SNR optimization?

Thanks!

11

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

Indeed the block diagram of the ADI-2 DAC shows the ref level position, but the Pro manual does not have such a diagram.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

MC wrote:

Indeed the block diagram of the ADI-2 DAC shows the ref level position, but the Pro manual does not have such a diagram.

Thanks! Just saw that 31.15 Block Diagram in RME ADI-2 DAC manual. If I had known to look there, would have saved a lot of our collective time.

On a related note, what will be the equivalent setting of getting 0dB compared to input (assuming no DSP): is it volume of -4dB (or -13dB, -19dB, -24dB) for ref level of +4dB (or +13dB, +19dB, +24dB)? And, which one these paired combinations (-xdB volume for +xdB ref level) will give highest SNR?

13

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

That question makes no sense. What is '0dB' in this context? You mean dBu maybe?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

14 (edited by KaiS 2021-10-19 11:47:20)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

dehati_paul wrote:

... what will be the equivalent setting of getting 0dB compared to input (assuming no DSP): is it volume of -4dB (or -13dB, -19dB, -24dB) for ref level of +4dB (or +13dB, +19dB, +24dB)? And, which one these paired combinations (-xdB volume for +xdB ref level) will give highest SNR?

I’m not sure what you are heading for?

Your figures are correct to get 0 dBu = 0.775 V @ 0 dBFS input signal.

SNR mainly depends on the DAC chip’s drive level.
The less you reduce digital volume the higher SNR is (logical, isn’t it?).

Here “Auto Reference Level” comes into play.
It keeps DAC level and SNR in the upper 6 dB range when ADI-2’s Volume control is used.

But, the most important thing you have to keep in mind:
You don’t have a noise problem if you don’t hear noise.

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

Sorry, I meant dBU in the ref level context. My 1st question was related to getting the same level output level compared to the input (output level = input level, i.e. no additional gain). Not sure if that is the right question given digital input and analog output.

My second question was a follow-on to the first, which is that if such situations/combinations exist where the output level is the same as the input level, then what will give the highest SNR. I guess that is optimized internally with the Auto Ref Level.

Where I am going with this is that as I feed the analog output of RME ADI-2 Pro to three external amplifiers separately (Topping A90 headphone amp, Blue Hawaii electrostatic headphone amp, Marantz speaker amplifier), I'd like to send out the most standard, cleanest analog signal out of RME and control volume separately with these amplifiers.

16

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

On a digital signal/input there is no 'same level as analog output'. You can think of highest digital signal level (=0 dBFS) and the same on the DA side by turning volume control to 0 dB - done. Whatever the analog output level then is, it is fully using the DAC's properties. This gives the highest SNR.

Then you use the ref level to adjust this situation to best meet the input sensitivity of your amps.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro as digital DSP

Perfect - Thanks!