1 (edited by surr3a1 2022-01-04 16:42:13)

Topic: A future owner question/s

Hi all,
Ever since I discovered this product I am hooked and can't wait to buy it.
Unfortunately I need to sell something from my previous purchases to fund it and while waiting for this to happen, I'd like to ask something.

1. Does the length of the coaxial cable matter? I am going to link a Bluesound Node to it via the coaxial input but I keep reading that I need a 1.5m cable because of some reflections and some stuff I don't quite get.

A friend has a very good cable which is 0.5m long and I can't decide if I should buy it from him or look for something longer.

I am looking at the Audioquest Cinnamon digital coaxial cable as an alternative but maybe I can save some money and get a shorter version.

2. From a purely technical standpoint, is it possible for the screen to display album artwork/track info?

Thanks!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

Re: A future owner question/s

> 1. Does the length of the coaxial cable matter? I am going to link a Bluesound Node to it via the coaxial input but I keep reading that I need a 1.5m cable because of some reflections and some stuff I don't quite get.

1.5m does not look long to me.  only when it's >10m it may cause problems.

> 2. From a purely technical standpoint, is it possible for the screen to display album artwork/track info?

No. it's just a CC device.  UAC spec does not have that.

You can build one with a tablet though...

Re: A future owner question/s

> 2. From a purely technical standpoint, is it possible for the screen to display album artwork/track info?

BluOS Controller App can, if you stream from it.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: A future owner question/s

Thanks for your reply, but I am afraid that my question was in the opposite direction i.e. the cable has to be minimum of 1.5m long and not shorter!
I can get shorter cable for less money obviously but these people say that it is better for the cable to be long...

Does it matter in this case?

explanation link

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

Re: A future owner question/s

Johannes AU wrote:

> 2. From a purely technical standpoint, is it possible for the screen to display album artwork/track info?

BluOS Controller App can, if you stream from it.

Yes, I am quite aware of that and this is how I plan to do it but you need a tablet/stand/dedicated space etc.
Thanks for your reply, I was just thinking that if this was possible, there wouldn't be anything like that on the market at the moment(not that there is anything with these features anyhow).

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

6 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-04 17:53:33)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

> 2. From a purely technical standpoint, is it possible for the screen to display album artwork/track info?

BluOS Controller App can, if you stream from it.

Yes, I am quite aware of that and this is how I plan to do it but you need a tablet/stand/dedicated space etc.
Thanks for your reply, I was just thinking that if this was possible, there wouldn't be anything like that on the market at the moment(not that there is anything with these features anyhow).

If you need a big display, yes.

If you want it handy, mobile phone App is good enough.

App Controller Operating Systems
iOS, Android, Windows Vista, 7, 8, 10, macOS 10-11

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

7 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-04 17:37:06)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

Thanks for your reply, but I am afraid that my question was in the opposite direction i.e. the cable has to be minimum of 1.5m long and not shorter!
I can get shorter cable for less money obviously but these people say that it is better for the cable to be long...

Does it matter in this case?

explanation link


1.5 meters is not that long, 0.5 meter is too short and will create tight bends, and for that length, a normal cable will work well, no need to get high cost cables.

Or you can use toslink if output is available at the Bluesound Node, it provides  galvanic isolation.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

8 (edited by ramses 2022-01-04 17:54:23)

Re: A future owner question/s

Johannes AU wrote:
surr3a1 wrote:

Thanks for your reply, but I am afraid that my question was in the opposite direction i.e. the cable has to be minimum of 1.5m long and not shorter!
I can get shorter cable for less money obviously but these people say that it is better for the cable to be long...

Does it matter in this case?

explanation link


1.5 meters is not that long, 0.5 meter is too short and will create tight bends, and for that length, a normal cable will work well, no need to get high cost cables.

Or you can use toslink if output is available at the Bluesound Node, it provides  galvanic isolation.

It's still digital transfer of data, watch MCs video about SteadyClock.
As long as the clock slave can still lock on the master and the digital transfer is happening then everything is fine.
The receiver will perform D/A conversion using its own local clock.

The only digital transmissions which might need dampening is when communication is optical and laser based .
Because of the high energy that is needed to support lengths of up to 200km.
There you need to use attenuators with short cables to not to burn the receiver.

See these pictures of burned receiver optics: https://www.flexoptix.net/de/blog/2013/ … ansceiver/
Some information about Multimode / Single mode: https://community.fs.com/blog/single-mo … -know.html

For Multimode and TOSLINK don't worry. For coax. SPDIF don't worry as well. You would see if the receiver would use lock and sync, as least with RME devices.

I only would try to avoid coax. SPDIF because there is no galvanic separation between devices compared to optical SPDIF.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: A future owner question/s

Any review/opinion I've ever read for any device, would rate the optical SPDIF as worse than the coax which is the reason that I'd never use it if I have the option(this is especially valid for the Bluesound Node).

In my case the 0.5m cable would be the perfect length(the devices are next to each other) if these concerns above are not relevant.

Thanks for the help!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

Re: A future owner question/s

Sitting on the Fence?

Buy the RME.   It will quickly convince you that it was the Best Choice!

Differences in Digital Connections?  (cough)

The RME bit-test utility will quickly lay waste to that theory, or...lead you toward the faulty connection.   Brilliant it is!

RME all the way!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

11 (edited by KSTR 2022-01-04 21:13:27)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

Any review/opinion I've ever read for any device, would rate the optical SPDIF as worse than the coax which is the reason that I'd never use it if I have the option(this is especially valid for the Bluesound Node)

Your worries are over. The jitter reduction of the ADI-2 Pro/DAC (with current firmware) is stellar and there is no difference no matter which digital input is used.

I suggest using TOSLINK as the galvanic isolation is always a guarantee for trouble-free integration of the device in the real world.

Re: A future owner question/s

KSTR wrote:
surr3a1 wrote:

Any review/opinion I've ever read for any device, would rate the optical SPDIF as worse than the coax which is the reason that I'd never use it if I have the option(this is especially valid for the Bluesound Node)

Your worries are over. The jitter reduction of the ADI-2 Pro/DAC (with current firmware) is stellar and there is no difference no matter which digital input is used.

I suggest using TOSLINK as the galvanic isolation is always a guarantee for trouble-free integration of the device in the real world.

Exactly.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: A future owner question/s

The measurements done for the Bluesound Node showed some issues with the TOSLINK but it is quite possible that the unit in question was problematic and not the product as a whole. I'll give it a try of course.

Thanks!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

14 (edited by KSTR 2022-01-05 10:35:12)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

The measurements done for the Bluesound Node showed some issues with the TOSLINK

You mean the review at ASR? There were issues with the TOSLINK/Coax inputs... which is irrelvant here as you will be using the output... which wasn't tested but as said it is irrelevant as the RME perfectly recovers the digital data stream and its internal clocking is completely decoupled (but still exactly following) the clock rate embedded in the SPDIF digital input signal.

15 (edited by ramses 2022-01-05 12:28:15)

Re: A future owner question/s

Exactly, see also MC's great video (available in DE/EN) how SteadyClock FS can even lock/sync on a very strong jittered digital input signal (simulated) that in practive never ever would occurr that high.

Also watch the positive impact on measuring results, also for devices like the UC.

EN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti0aHW-zYcs
DE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-20vkogWvWU

Maybe this give you an additional impression, that RME devices are professional studio devices with no such deficites that you might know or heard of in the consumer area.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

16 (edited by KaiS 2022-01-05 12:58:33)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

1. Does the length of the coaxial cable matter? I am going to link a Bluesound Node to it via the coaxial input but I keep reading that I need a 1.5m cable because of some reflections and some stuff I don't quite get.

A friend has a very good cable which is 0.5m long and I can't decide if I should buy it from him or look for something longer.

I am looking at the Audioquest Cinnamon digital coaxial cable as an alternative but maybe I can save some money and get a shorter version.

Don’t worry about the cable.
ADI-2 eats whatever you feed it with, and Steadyclock removes any possible jitter.
Use whatever is lying around, not even a specialized digital cable is necessary. Even some pieces of bare wire would work with the exact same result.

surr3a1 wrote:

The measurements done for the Bluesound Node showed some issues with the TOSLINK but it is quite possible that the unit in question was problematic and not the product as a whole. I'll give it a try of course

Same like above, TOSLINK would have the advantage to give electrical isolation.


All you have to take care of:
Run RME BitTest, if it passes everything is fine.


surr3a1 wrote:

2. From a purely technical standpoint, is it possible for the screen to display album artwork/track info?

Your streaming app should show the track info.

17 (edited by Curt962 2022-01-05 16:57:51)

Re: A future owner question/s

Surr,

I think you could safely take the aforementioned suggestions straight to the bank!   The RME is a remarkably capable device regardless of how you feed data into it, thus Gourmet Cables, etc that promise all sorts of Magic are absolutely un-necessary.   Steady Clock is no gimmick!  It does exactly what it's supposed to do, and there is a substantial body of Lab Data to support it's effectiveness.

For fun...I took a look at a review of the AQ Cable you referred to.   I could not get past technical descriptors such as "A Sassy Cable" "Dynamically Supple" and a long list of others that brought tears of laughter to my Eyes. big_smile

As it turns out?  The USB Cable included with your new RME is indeed very "Sassy", and definitely "Dynamically Supple"!!   Perhaps lacking a bit in "Swagger" but that's very subjective  wink    Throughout the history of Digital Audio, the "Swagger Bit" has always presented challenges to designers.  Nice that AQ figured it out.

Connect your RME in the manner most convenient for you.  Run Bit-Test successfully,  and the device takes care of itself.

It's True!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

18 (edited by surr3a1 2022-01-06 09:30:24)

Re: A future owner question/s

Thanks for all the help guys. I'm 100% determined to get the Adi-2 because of many factors some of which are totally unrelated to the device itself. This forum is one of those, the overall attitude of the developers etc.

I've rarely seen a product which keeps giving back as much as the Adi-2 and being supported and improved constantly with new features.

Surely there are better sounding DACs(based on various reviews) but none of them is even remotely close to the features of this one.

I had actually won one MK II version on eBay but the seller was not correct and I had to cancel the purchase.

Soon...

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

19 (edited by ramses 2022-01-06 10:05:33)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

[...]Surely there are better sounding DACs(based on various reviews) but none of them is even remotely close to the features of this one. [...]

EDITED:

Reviews are not being done as they should. You can't trust them without knowing how reviews need to be done and how they actually have been performed to exclude any psychoacoustic effects and to meet a minimum of required prerequisites (equal volume levels, quick A/B testing possibility, blind testing, better double blind testing).

These are usually the same people telling you to get €100-500 USB and SPDIF cables to get a better sound.
And everybody with a little technical background knows, that this is not the case.
It's all about a reliable, lossless digital transport of "zeroes and ones" (the digitized audio signal) without changing it.

Furthermore ADI-2 DAC/Pro FS use SteadyClock (FS) to be able to lock and sync even on the worst jittered digital input signal reliably and keeping the lock. The final D/A conversion is always being performed with the own internal FS clock in highest quality. With the so called Bittest you can test this yourself, that the original WAV file has been delivered lossless (and better is not possible) from the player up to the DSP directly in front of the D/A converter.
Nicely explained by Matthias Carstens himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti0aHW-zYcs

The ADI-2 Pro FS has been compared to pure studio AD converter up to Lavry Gold for around €8000.
You can download the original wav files. The differences, IF you hear them, are at least subtle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doHG32aXBDY

So I would not be worried in any way that you miss something in terms of sound.

ADDED:

If a converter should sound different you should be more worried about, that some trickeries have been made to give it something like a "signature sound". But this is not the transparent / original reproduction of the audio signal. There I really would be worried more.

IF you want a real difference in sound, then you achieve really audible differences and a change in quality when using better speakers and if you optimize your/their position in the listening room and by optimizing the room acoustic.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

20 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-06 10:00:09)

Re: A future owner question/s

ramses wrote:
surr3a1 wrote:

[...]Surely there are better sounding DACs(based on various reviews) but none of them is even remotely close to the features of this one. [...]

Reviews are not being done as they should. You can't trust them without knowing how reviews need to be done and how they actually have been performed to exclude any psychoacoustic effects and to meet a minimum of required prerequisites (equal volume levels, quick A/B testing possibility, blind testing, better double blind testing).

These are usually the same people telling you to get €300-500 USB and SPDIF cables to get a better sound.
And everybody with a little technical background knows, that this is not the case, -> BS(tm).

Furthermore ADI-2 DAC/Pro FS use SteadyClock (FS) to be able to lock and sync even on the worst jittered digital input signal reliably and keeping the lock. The final D/A conversion is always being performed with the own internal FS clock in highest quality. With the so called Bittest you can test this yourself, that the original WAV file has been delivered lossless (and better is not possible) from the player up to the DSP directly in front of the D/A converter.

The ADI-2 Pro FS has been compared to pure studio AD converter up to Lavry Gold for around €8000.
You can download the original wav files. The differences, IF you hear them, are at least subtle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doHG32aXBDY

So I would not be worried in any way that you miss something in terms of sound.

If a converter should sound different you should be more worried about, that some trickeries have been made to give it something like a "signature sound". But this is not the transparent / original reproduction of the audio signal. There I really would be worried more.

One more thing, the phrase not appear at advertisement of RME Dac, but you will find it and the printed/pdf manual after you bought the Dac, it is a promise from RME.

The latin phrase "Sonus Verus" !

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

21 (edited by surr3a1 2022-01-07 13:56:30)

Re: A future owner question/s

One more question about the versions. I know that there are 3 versions with the first two using AK chip and the last one using an ESS one.
I am assuming that any of the last two versions is OK but is there any particular reason for choosing MKII vs MKIII and vice versa?

I have the opportunity to buy the MKII with the AK4493 chip which I am kind of thinking is the better choice since that was the originally selected one before the fire.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

22 (edited by Curt962 2022-01-07 14:05:50)

Re: A future owner question/s

Surr,

The Short answer is: "Go for it!"   

Take a look here:

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ses-EN-DE.


Ramses invested a great deal of effort to put together this detailed overview of the RMEs which should answer your questions very clearly.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: A future owner question/s

Thanks Curt,
Hopefully I'll be an owner sooner than later : )

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

Re: A future owner question/s

Sooner is better...BEFORE someone else buys it! 

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: A future owner question/s

I can verify this... people are going crazy about this thing on eBay!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

Re: A future owner question/s

Engage Sniper-Mode

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: A future owner question/s

Yes, I am aware of it smile. Thank you for your very valuable advice and wonderful attitude!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

One more question about the versions. I know that there are 3 versions with the first two using AK chip and the last one using an ESS one.
I am assuming that any of the last two versions is OK but is there any particular reason for choosing MKII vs MKIII and vice versa?

I have the opportunity to buy the MKII with the AK4493 chip which I am kind of thinking is the better choice since that was the originally selected one before the fire.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

They should sound the same, but there is some logic to your thinking. I think.. Check the respective manuals for digital filter options. Thats there the models differ.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: A future owner question/s

All spelled out in Ramses' Tonstudio blog.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

30 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-07 14:52:50)

Re: A future owner question/s

Happy_amateur wrote:
surr3a1 wrote:

One more question about the versions. I know that there are 3 versions with the first two using AK chip and the last one using an ESS one.
I am assuming that any of the last two versions is OK but is there any particular reason for choosing MKII vs MKIII and vice versa?

I have the opportunity to buy the MKII with the AK4493 chip which I am kind of thinking is the better choice since that was the originally selected one before the fire.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

They should sound the same, but there is some logic to your thinking. I think.. Check the respective manuals for digital filter options. Thats there the models differ.

Agree, the differences are the filters and DSD direct.

<FROM THE RME DAC MANUAL>
ADI-2 DACs with AK4493 and ES9028Q2M are neither sonically nor visually easily distinguishable. However, the ESS version is recognized by a small C at the end of the serial number sticker
(B stood for AKM 4493). Furthermore, the units differ in the available filters. The unit with AKM
has a filter called Short Delay Low Dispersion, while the one with ESS has a filter called Brickwall
(the other filters, SD Sharp, SD Slow, Sharp, Slow, NOS, are identical)

DSD Direct (Line) – not available on ESS units
OFF, ON. Default: OFF. When activated a DSD playback will use DSD Direct mode over the rear outputs 1/2. As DSD Direct bypasses all DSP calculations and volume control, the only way to change the output volume is by setting different reference levels. Therefore in DSD Direct mode outputs Phones and IEM are disabled.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: A future owner question/s

ramses wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
surr3a1 wrote:

Thanks for your reply, but I am afraid that my question was in the opposite direction i.e. the cable has to be minimum of 1.5m long and not shorter!
I can get shorter cable for less money obviously but these people say that it is better for the cable to be long...

Does it matter in this case?

explanation link


1.5 meters is not that long, 0.5 meter is too short and will create tight bends, and for that length, a normal cable will work well, no need to get high cost cables.

Or you can use toslink if output is available at the Bluesound Node, it provides  galvanic isolation.

It's still digital transfer of data, watch MCs video about SteadyClock.
As long as the clock slave can still lock on the master and the digital transfer is happening then everything is fine.
The receiver will perform D/A conversion using its own local clock.

The only digital transmissions which might need dampening is when communication is optical and laser based .
Because of the high energy that is needed to support lengths of up to 200km.
There you need to use attenuators with short cables to not to burn the receiver.

See these pictures of burned receiver optics: https://www.flexoptix.net/de/blog/2013/ … ansceiver/
Some information about Multimode / Single mode: https://community.fs.com/blog/single-mo … -know.html

For Multimode and TOSLINK don't worry. For coax. SPDIF don't worry as well. You would see if the receiver would use lock and sync, as least with RME devices.

I only would try to avoid coax. SPDIF because there is no galvanic separation between devices compared to optical SPDIF.

Isnt the MADI modules laser based. Do you need attenuators for those?

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: A future owner question/s

No this is multimode (using e.g. OM3/OM4 multimode cables) -> up to 2km between each device.
On special request/order you can get single mode based (laser) -> up to 10km between each device.
The newer devices allow you to choose/hotsawap a SFP (transceiver) with either multi- or single mode.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: A future owner question/s

ramses wrote:

No this is multimode (using e.g. OM3/OM4 multimode cables) -> up to 2km between each device.
On special request/order you can get single mode based (laser) -> up to 10km between each device.
The newer devices allow you to choose/hotsawap a SFP (transceiver) with either multi- or single mode.

We wouldnt wanna toast our gear with lasers big_smile

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: A future owner question/s

Well the device is finally here and playing music as I write these words(ESS one).

I have it connected to my Arcam SA30 and it seems that the analogue inputs of that Arcam are quite low.
I did set the output level to fixed +13.

What I wanted to ask is, how can I enable/disable its usage as a pre-amp to be able to test the pre-amp of the Arcam?

Thanks!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

35 (edited by ramses 2022-01-27 16:21:34)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

Well the device is finally here and playing music as I write these words(ESS one).

I have it connected to my Arcam SA30 and it seems that the analogue inputs of that Arcam are quite low.
I did set the output level to fixed +13.

What I wanted to ask is, how can I enable/disable its usage as a pre-amp to be able to test the pre-amp of the Arcam?

Thanks!

Sorry, but this question makes no sense to me because the ADI-2 will always be something like a preamp / USB DAC, it has no poweramp. And also your integrated amp will always have a preamp and a power amp inside.

So at the end of the day you connect a preamp (analog output section of the ADI-2 DAC - with line level) to a (nother) preamp (of your integrated amp). All you need to take care of is to not overload the preamp of your intrgrated amp, because ADI-2 supports higher levels than consumer level.

And from that background / in this context I do not understand in what regards / how / for what you want to test the preamp section of your integrated amp ?!

Simply use reasonable not too high output level on the ADI-2 DAC and thats it.
If your integrated amp has special inputs for the poweramp, you could also deceide, not to use the preamp of your integrated amp at all .. but maybe you need it because of a connected turntable and what not ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: A future owner question/s

Thanks for that reply, ramses. It seems that I got confused by reading something somewhere.
I just thought that if the Adi is working as a pre-amp, maybe I can bypass the one in my integrated amp and vice versa to see which will give the best results.

While testing with the automatic settings enabled, I did turn the volume all the way up to -5dB and it wasn't very loud but at the same time I saw it switch to the +13dBu setting. This is how I determined that switching to that as a fixed level would be Ok.

Thanks and sorry for the stupid question!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

Re: A future owner question/s

Did a lot of testing today with different USB cables... whoever claims that there is no difference or that the provided USB cable is giving all the music there is, is simply mistaken or never ever did a comparison test with decent cables!

More clarity and detail with this Oehlenbach OCC copper USB cable. Obviously it is not day and night but it is better!:
https://www.oehlbach.com/en/new-product … b-primus-b

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

Re: A future owner question/s

whoever claims that there is no difference or that the provided USB cable is giving all the music there is, is simply mistaken or never ever did a comparison test with decent cables

I think there are only 2 ways in which a digital signal cable could affect sound (could be mistaken though):
- it doesn't pass the signal through properly, meaning not all 0 and 1 put in at one end, end up as 0 and 1 on the receiving. Theoretically this could lead to 'more clarity and detail' but given the random nature of such noise it might just as well translate to audible cracks and pops. Did you do a bittest to compare the cables? That would be step one.
- there's some kind of ground loop which only happens with one cable. Again not impossible, but this should present itself as audible hum or similar.

Then there's reason number 3, which from my own humble experience is the most likely: placebo. Can be figured out easily by doing a proper blind test, I'd suggest you try that first before making a conclusion.

39 (edited by ramses 2022-02-02 14:57:05)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

Did a lot of testing today with different USB cables... whoever claims that there is no difference or that the provided USB cable is giving all the music there is, is simply mistaken or never ever did a comparison test with decent cables!

More clarity and detail with this Oehlenbach OCC copper USB cable. Obviously it is not day and night but it is better!:
https://www.oehlbach.com/en/new-product … b-primus-b

Why you think it sounds better in one word: "psychoacoustic" ! Your BIAS / expectation because the HiFi mafia tells you such bullshit since years (as they can make good money by this) and psychoacoustic effect work for them "validating" it (but no real validation .. only psychoacoustic).

When testing you need to exclude psychoacoustic by a certain test methodology, e.g.
- performing blind (or even better double blind) tests
- doing quick A/B tests
- performing tests always at exactly the the same listening level because for our ears louder sounds better.

You can validate it yourself by performing the Bittest.
If the digital data arrives lossless up to the DAC in front of the D/A converter, then everything is ok.
Better than lossless is not possible.

And I even do not believe that you had something like a problem with hum. 1. rather unlikely and 2. you can clearly distinguish hum from bad sound.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: A future owner question/s

Well... definitely not by a long shot. It does sound different and it does sound better for me(it may not be better for you but still different). Psychoacoustic doesn't have one little bit to do with it.
It is definitely not about hum, hum is not present. The sound is just clearer.

The only thing that is debatable here is if you like it better or not.

There are only two reasons to not hear a difference:
- you have a hearing loss
- you have a low cost system

I did spend the better part of the day comparing the interconnect cables from the Adi to my Arcam(after I decided that the new USB is better). These cables make huge difference in the sound and this difference is much easily observed of course.
A question... do you think the same about the interconnects or just about the USB cables?

In any case this is not about arguing if someone hears something or not, it is about not trusting absolutely anyone's opinion on the matter and do the test yourself!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

41 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-02-02 18:13:06)

Re: A future owner question/s

I use a 'cheap' USB cable and interconnects with the RME since day 1.

After I updated the Dali Spektor 1 to Oberon 1, it sounds better.

After I updated the Yamaha WXA-50 to a Teac, it sounds better.

All interconnects remain the same, but I am 7 months older from day 1 of RME plus some possible hearing loss in pass 7 months.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

42 (edited by ramses 2022-02-02 22:39:32)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

Well... definitely not by a long shot. It does sound different and it does sound better for me(it may not be better for you but still different). Psychoacoustic doesn't have one little bit to do with it.
It is definitely not about hum, hum is not present. The sound is just clearer.

The only thing that is debatable here is if you like it better or not.

There are only two reasons to not hear a difference:
- you have a hearing loss
- you have a low cost system

I did spend the better part of the day comparing the interconnect cables from the Adi to my Arcam(after I decided that the new USB is better). These cables make huge difference in the sound and this difference is much easily observed of course.
A question... do you think the same about the interconnects or just about the USB cables?

In any case this is not about arguing if someone hears something or not, it is about not trusting absolutely anyone's opinion on the matter and do the test yourself!

You should see me here less as an "enemy" and more as a helpful mentor who actually just wanted to do you some good and save you from spending money unnecessarily.

Instead of recognizing the benefit of the Bittest (validation of lossless audio transfer from player to DAC) you are welcome to continue to insist on your opinion; after all, it is your money that you are throwing out the window for no reason. And if it is fun for you to continue to deceive yourself, then keep it up, the HiFi industry will be happy to see how well they have been indoctrinated you over the past years by making clever marketing promises, so that you can be milked further for overpriced USB cables and what not.

Incidentally, my hearing is still excellent and I can't complain about the devices I'm using here. But that's not the point.
I wish you the best of luck, as far as I can see you'll need that.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

43 (edited by eleweit 2022-02-02 20:31:42)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

The only thing that is debatable here is if you like it better or not.

Sorry, but no. As Ramses hinted already: you should really be open to the other option, being that when you see yourself using that shiny expensive cable, your brain turns in its confirmation bias 'this must be better' mode and makes you effectively think the sound is better. Whereas there is no actual difference. Humans cannot escape that easily. Been there done that smile

Again: I'm not saying that is the case here, just that it is very likely. And until you do a blind test (have somone else switch cables where you cannot see it) or do proper measurements you can simply not be sure what is really happening.

Re: A future owner question/s

Just chipping in on this futile debate...

Just because the improvement is psychoacoustic doesnt mean its not _real_

In the same way a placebo tablet can make physical illness objectively measurably better, solely by tricking the mind, so can fancy gear make music sound better.

So I expect the OP genuinely enjoys listening more on the expensive cable, and since its already paid for I would not recommend A/B testing as that might ruin it, and turn the expense into a waste of money. At the moment  its not necessarily a waste of money as its improving enjoyment of music?

45 (edited by rawac 2022-02-02 22:18:44)

Re: A future owner question/s

Reading this thread i was thinking about my opinion. While I was thinking and typing Jamshir answered faster and in a similar direction.


Here is a lot of talking about A<>B blind test, blindfold testing. Had to work with testing my whole business life (graduate engineer for measurement technology, quality, functional safety, ...). Finding out what is good and what is bad, objective, documented, traceable. Not for better listening, but if something would not work as expected, environment would be damaged or people would die. That was not so easy. Sometimes it was not even possible. Then there is an other way: Compare, how much you have to spend to find out, and how much you have to spend for the solution that is on the safer side.

But here it is not a matter of life or death. It is about listening to music. The stuff i use should be just a tool, all right, it should be good tool, helpful. What should i do? Spend my time with blindfold tests? I would not only spend my time, i would need help, spending the time of other people. Or listen to music? Why not just take the more expansive cable and forget the price?

Listening jazz isn't my business, it's my hobby. I don't want to buy the best equipment, i want to buy pleasure. Pleasure means to me easy, understandable access to the music and as long as possible enjoyable listening. Long time ago i tried this with switching between A<>B, more or less blind. But at the end i wasn't satisfied too often. Meanwhile i do some preselection by looking, reading, hearing. But then: just listen as long as possible, and then ask myself: how do i feel? My speaker selection is in the signature. They are expansive, i listened a whole weekend at my home only to them, then i decided to by them, because i was very much satisfied.

But here we are talking about an USB cable. It may be 9, or 39 or 89 bucks. The difference is a concert ticket, or an evening at the Village Vanguard. How much time do i spend deciding whether or not to buy a concert ticket? Sometimes a concert is not a pleasure, s*** happens. But i have tried. Life is too short to despair over a failed concert, and so is whether you bought a USB cable that may be too expensive.

Sometimes I really have the impression that the most important thing is forgotten about the engagement with the technology: The joy of music!

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

46 (edited by surr3a1 2022-02-03 00:24:22)

Re: A future owner question/s

Johannes AU wrote:

I use a 'cheap' USB cable and interconnects with the RME since day 1.

After I updated the Dali Spektor 1 to Oberon 1, it sounds better.

After I updated the Yamaha WXA-50 to a Teac, it sounds better.

All interconnects remain the same, but I am 7 months older from day 1 of RME plus some possible hearing loss in pass 7 months.

So let me try to understand correctly, you changed amps and speakers but you've kept the same cables all the time... so how do you have an opinion on the topic when you've never ever tested anything related to cables?


If you don't hear a difference - you are blessed with keeping your money for other use and I envy you for that(just what ramses said).
For me... I can have my Adi sounding different in endless ways which cannot be measured in just money!


Onto more tangible question: If I have set treble gain +2dB and then set Parametric EQ of +2dB to the 6.5kHz band, will I have +4dB total?

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB

47 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-03 01:29:30)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:

If I have set treble gain +2dB and then set Parametric EQ of +2dB to the 6.5kHz band, will I have +4dB total?

Yes.

If you have the latest firmware - which sounds better than the one before because it has a higher number smile - sorry, excuse me, I couldn’t hesitate -
and activate “Load B/T w. Preset” in the EQ menu, you can see the effect in the EQ plot.

48 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-02-03 06:46:42)

Re: A future owner question/s

surr3a1 wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

I use a 'cheap' USB cable and interconnects with the RME since day 1.

After I updated the Dali Spektor 1 to Oberon 1, it sounds better.

After I updated the Yamaha WXA-50 to a Teac, it sounds better.

All interconnects remain the same, but I am 7 months older from day 1 of RME plus some possible hearing loss in pass 7 months.

So let me try to understand correctly, you changed amps and speakers but you've kept the same cables all the time... so how do you have an opinion on the topic when you've never ever tested anything related to cables?


If you don't hear a difference - you are blessed with keeping your money for other use and I envy you for that(just what ramses said).
For me... I can have my Adi sounding different in endless ways which cannot be measured in just money!


Onto more tangible question: If I have set treble gain +2dB and then set Parametric EQ of +2dB to the 6.5kHz band, will I have +4dB total?


KaiS answered your last paragrapgh, so I skipped it.

I tell my experience doesn't mean I never tested high end cables, the fact is I do not own one.
After I got the RME dac, my friends of the HiFi circle said their dac(s) are good, very good, some R2R thousands dollar dac, some sigma delta quad chip dac. They want to compare, also decodes a CD transport. So I brought my RME with the PSU and original cables (with a cheap RCA interconnect) and an external disc drive to their place and do some music listening.

We do not intentionally do A/B test or blind listening, just random connection to their equipment. The result is RME sounds best, they admit it and shocked. While after several connections with equipment, no one remember which is which, that said they cannot hear any difference, their system cost around half million Hong Kong dollars. The external disc drive cost HK$300 can play a CD via computer to the RME sounds the same as their HK$ 120,000 CD transport with very beautiful cabinet, cables and connectors.

I did mentioned in another post, I cannot find it at the moment. When I switch the polarity at the RME, they said it is more transparent and praise it, when I told them the truth, their faces turn red.

I am an amateur only, not a pro, but I did own a lot of so-called HiFi equipemt, mainly SONY, I record vinyl tracks into cassette tapes, I use SONY TC-K777ES, TC-D5M, also SONY OFC cables. I understand the basics, but nowadays digital age makes it more complicated, but the basics remains intact and useful, it is all physics.

If you think someone using cheap interconnects has no rights to comment, I can keep myself silent in those topics. We speak out is not to downsizing anyone, the aim is to let them understand not to spend money on things that makes no improvement, rather spend money on music, for e.g. CD or other music media. Many members here are willing to help others even with language barrier, they earn nothing.

Could it be your way of thinking I never tried a cable, makes you think a particular type of cable is better, I have no conclusion, may be it is the mindset of people that makes cable manufacturer earns a fortune. (You try it and you will like it, only RME and BMW boxer engine motorcycle works for me)

Recently a well known Youtuber of Hong Kong posted a photograph of Triton Fethead Phantom and ask his audience what is it (likely to show off his expertise knowledge?). One answered +48V Phantom inline amp for condenser microphone. He then replied it is for dyanamic microphone ... another gentleman pointed out the first answer is correct, he then make circles state that he use it in his studio at his dynamic microphones for VO ... blah blah blah... that gentleman pointed out the first answer is correct keep state the fact in the replies, at the end the Youtuber admits he got the wrong model ... but keep making excuses and said few dB lower but it still works...

This forum is a very nice place for RME users to discuss technical problems they encountered, answers from other members are highly technical with very fine details and explanations, enjoy the forum and keep this going.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

49 (edited by ramses 2022-02-03 08:18:43)

Re: A future owner question/s

eleweit wrote:
surr3a1 wrote:

The only thing that is debatable here is if you like it better or not.

Sorry, but no. As Ramses hinted already: you should really be open to the other option, being that when you see yourself using that shiny expensive cable, your brain turns in its confirmation bias 'this must be better' mode and makes you effectively think the sound is better. Whereas there is no actual difference. Humans cannot escape that easily. Been there done that smile

Again: I'm not saying that is the case here, just that it is very likely. And until you do a blind test (have somone else switch cables where you cannot see it) or do proper measurements you can simply not be sure what is really happening.

The good thing with the Bit test is, that we can skip such discussion about the quality of digital cables entirely.
If you play the WAV files prepared by RME from any playback device via USB (or other digital transports like ADAT/SPDIF).
then the ADI-2 DAC/Pro can confirm that all data has arrived at the DAC without any loss (better is not possible).
See also manual ch 31.14 for further information about Bit test.
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dacr_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dacr_e.pdf

In this case you validated a lossles transport of digital audio data from the source (the player) over USB to the ADI-2 DAC/Pro just in front of the D/A converter. Something like an "end-to-end" test of transfer quality in the "digital domain".

The Bit test will immidiately fail, if the digital audio data is modified and this happens very easily if you change for example the volume on your Audio player. Reduce the volume only by a minimum to smth like 99% and you will see, that the Bittest will fail.

So all this discussion about the quality of digital cable is superfluous with the introduction of the Bit test. This gives you now the safety that you never had before, because no other vendor implemented such a clever and very useful feature up to now.

A comparison. You all have computers and perform any kind of backup of data with it to an USB disk, don't you ?!
Figure out what a mess would happen, if expensive USB cables would be required to ensure a reliable backup of digital data.
Sure .. I wouldn't use/recommend the cheapest cable, but only to prevent quality issues (bad plugs, connectors) which can lead e.g. to CRC - so to say transport errors - over USB.

While I say bad cables ... in the settings windows of the RME MADIface driver you can even perform a CRC check while this window stays open.
This indicates to you more specific whether you have USB transport problems where one reason can be cable problems.
A Bittest would also fail in such a case if data is missing or corrupted, CRC errors indicate here, that you have another problem than e.g. volume set to 99% in the player, as this indicates more specific trouble in the area of data transport over USB.

I put this and other information together also here to have it at one central point
    https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ses-EN-DE/
because many people do not know what excellent and innovative features RME delivers with these products.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

50 (edited by surr3a1 2022-02-03 08:51:29)

Re: A future owner question/s

KaiS wrote:

Yes.

If you have the latest firmware - which sounds better than the one before because it has a higher number smile - sorry, excuse me, I couldn’t hesitate -
and activate “Load B/T w. Preset” in the EQ menu, you can see the effect in the EQ plot.

: )) Thanks for the reply and I get the joke!

Please guys, lets stop the cables discussion as it doesn't go into a good direction and I don't want to make "enemies" with any one of you here.

Question:
I want to try another power supply which is rated at 9V and 2A but the recommended range in the manual is 9.5-15V. Will there be a problem?

Thank you for your help!

Streamer: Bluesound Node
Amp: Arcam SA30
Speakers: KEF LS50 Meta
SUB: BK P12-300SB