1 Topic by supermad (edited by supermad 2022-01-06 03:03:17)

  • Registered: 2018-06-01
  • Posts: 8

Topic: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

Hi everyone,

I am using adi-2 pro(gen 1, non fs) with genelec 8330. I also have a babyface pro, so recording is not a problem.

Fortunately, my friend have a adi-2 dac fs (gen 2，ak4493) and welcome me to bring it home doing a/b test.

There are huge different, such as the low frequency depth is deeper ,faster attack and more punchy.
*it is not a review.

Dac fs is good, so I am planing to upgrade my pro. Is there any sound image different with dac fs and pro fs? I am not hifi guy never use dsd and analog in is not a must.

Just focus on audio quality, which one should I chose?

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-01-06 09:12:43)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,114

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

EDIT: sorry misread your article, thought ADI-2 DAC FS vs PRO FS, but you mean ADI-2 Pro AK4490 vs ADI-2 DAC FS AK4493.

No difference sound wise.
The only differences are better specs which are not audible.
Higher SNR doesn't give more sound quality, SNR is nowadays on such high level, you can't simply hear any noise.

You can get all this information from my blog article which also contains additionall information to have the most important stuff in one place: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ses-EN-DE/

Or from this sticky: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=32506

If you have the older ADI-2 Pro you can think about upgrading to ADI-2 Pro FS R BE to get
- a remote (the new one) which has been added to the Pro series of models since the "R BE". R stands for remote
- the black edition (BE) and without prepared holes for rack mounting
- the latest AK4493, with some better specs and the new D/A filter, but no audible impact on sound quality

You can download the latest firmware also for your current ADI-2 Pro to get the latest features (except where you have hw limitations, like no remote).

Regarding testing very important:
1. use exactly the same levels
2. perform blind testing, even better double blind testing so that also the 2nd supportive person doesn't know which device is running, so that he can not influence you by any personal reaction when switching.
3. You can make sure to disable any B/T, PEQ, dyn. Loudness by remapping one of the 4 front keys with the toggle function: EQ+B/T+Ld1-4 to turn this off with one push.
4. You should double check / validate same settings under I/O, DA filter, auto reflevel and what not and finally store it with correct volume to be able to recall it reliably at any time for any further testing.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 24,877

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

There is zero difference between Pro and DAC. What you describe is either imagination or you overlooked an active PEQ, B/T or Loudness setting in one unit causing an audible difference.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • From: Hongkong
  • Registered: 2021-06-30
  • Posts: 720

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

It is true, before I decided to get the Dac, I did tested and heard the pro version, even the Dac arrived with the ESS chip, I cannot hear a difference. I am an ESS chip Adi-2 Dac Fs owner, a happy one smile

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen
  • Registered: 2018-06-01
  • Posts: 8

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

Sorry for my English is bad. _/\_

My description is talking about Adi-2 pro(gen1 non fs) vs Adi-2 dac fs(ak4493).

I tested with same volume, same xlr cable, same power supply, same usb cable and no eq/loudness control setting on both adi.
** Again, it is old pro vs new dac fs**

My question is any audio difference with new “pro fs b r” and “dac fs”.

Because I am not really need the analog input and dsd conversion, if they are same audio quality then will go for new dac fs with better price.

Thanks for you guys input.

  • From: Hongkong
  • Registered: 2021-06-30
  • Posts: 720

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

supermad wrote:

Sorry for my English is bad. _/\_

My description is talking about Adi-2 pro(gen1 non fs) vs Adi-2 dac fs(ak4493).

I tested with same volume, same xlr cable, same power supply, same usb cable and no eq/loudness control setting on both adi.
** Again, it is old pro vs new dac fs**

My question is any audio difference with new “pro fs b r” and “dac fs”.

Because I am not really need the analog input and dsd conversion, if they are same audio quality then will go for new dac fs with better price.

Thanks for you guys input.

I can not hear a difference between the Pro fs R BE(AKM) and Dac fs (ESS).

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen
  • N00b
  • N00b
  • MADI hero
  • Offline
  • From: Near Paris, France
  • Registered: 2018-10-03
  • Posts: 460

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

supermad wrote:

Sorry for my English is bad. _/\_

My description is talking about Adi-2 pro(gen1 non fs) vs Adi-2 dac fs(ak4493).

I tested with same volume, same xlr cable, same power supply, same usb cable and no eq/loudness control setting on both adi.
** Again, it is old pro vs new dac fs**

My question is any audio difference with new “pro fs b r” and “dac fs”.

Because I am not really need the analog input and dsd conversion, if they are same audio quality then will go for new dac fs with better price.

Thanks for you guys input.

No audible "sound quality" difference between all the ADI-2 DAC/Pro versions (models or gen), period. smile

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

N00b's Website

8 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2022-01-06 13:48:10)

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,658

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

N00b wrote:
supermad wrote:

Sorry for my English is bad. _/\_

My description is talking about Adi-2 pro(gen1 non fs) vs Adi-2 dac fs(ak4493).

I tested with same volume, same xlr cable, same power supply, same usb cable and no eq/loudness control setting on both adi.
** Again, it is old pro vs new dac fs**

My question is any audio difference with new “pro fs b r” and “dac fs”.

Because I am not really need the analog input and dsd conversion, if they are same audio quality then will go for new dac fs with better price.

Thanks for you guys input.

No audible "sound quality" difference between all the ADI-2 DAC/Pro versions (models or gen), period. smile

Except the original ADI-2 from 10 years ago, I would think, but maybe even then....
So if the OP is talking about the old ADI-2 and not the pro then maybe....
And if MC says there is no difference, then there is no difference even if you think you hear it!!!!!!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-01-06 14:30:08)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,114

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

> Except the original ADI-2 from 10 years ago, I would think, but maybe even then....

No, when FS came up then MC told, that an upgrade because of FS soundwise is not required.
All devices had at the beginning the same DAC chip AK4490 up to ADI-2 DAC FS / ADI-2 Pro FS / BE.

Meanwhile I think that the DAC chips of today do not differentiate themselves by creating better sound.
They all do a proper (transparent) D/A conversion.
But ofc they also differentiate themselves in terms of certain features, like e.g. number of channels, DSD or not, SNR, etc ...
But higher SNR is only higher SNR, not better sound.

I think therefore it was easy for RME to switch the DAC chip to ESS for availability reasons ...
It needed only some adoptions as the ESS chip has over detection not automatically included in the DAC.
But for that RME - as I understood - reserved some headroom, so that at the end its again the same.

The DACs nowadays perform all a very well AD and DA conversion.
Small differences you might get from the implementation of the analog stage behind the DAC chip itself.

Some people on Audioscience review are the opineon, that a different or a "signature" sound of a DAC is not possible when all has been implemented. Sound differences and something like "signature sound" would indicate, that a transparent high quality conversion has not happened.

The ADI-2 DAC/Pro is IMHO the clear winner in terms of a clean implementation which takes care of high quality / transparent sound like it should be. Plus all the little features that make a difference as Steadyclock, 4 reflevels, auto reflevel, Bittest to really ensure end-to-end, that you have lossless sound, etc.

Differences in SNR and THD etc are nice to see in measurements, but are already on such a high level which is not audible.
If you hear "no noise" with -120 dBA, well then you will also hear no noise with -124 etc.
Well, darker than dark is .. still dark wink

Then you should perhaps take more care about, which music you are listening to (is it also on that high level).
And most important room and speakers.
With better speakers you get really easily audible effects.

So the ideal strategy is IMHO to get smth like ADI-2 * for clean implementation and outstanding features.
And then burn the rest of the money with speakers and room optimization.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

10 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2022-01-06 14:46:06)

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,658

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

Hi Ramsi I mean the really old  ADI-2  https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/products/adi_2.php#1
But even with this one it might be impossible to hear a difference in a blind test.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • N00b
  • N00b
  • MADI hero
  • Offline
  • From: Near Paris, France
  • Registered: 2018-10-03
  • Posts: 460

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

vinark wrote:
N00b wrote:

No audible "sound quality" difference between all the ADI-2 DAC/Pro versions (models or gen), period. smile

Except the original ADI-2 from 10 years ago, I would think, but maybe even then....
So if the OP is talking about the old ADI-2 and not the pro then maybe....
And if MC says there is no difference, then there is no difference even if you think you hear it!!!!!!

I did specify ADI-2 DAC/Pro smile

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

N00b's Website

12 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2022-01-06 14:54:52)

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,658

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

N00b wrote:
vinark wrote:
N00b wrote:

No audible "sound quality" difference between all the ADI-2 DAC/Pro versions (models or gen), period. smile

Except the original ADI-2 from 10 years ago, I would think, but maybe even then....
So if the OP is talking about the old ADI-2 and not the pro then maybe....
And if MC says there is no difference, then there is no difference even if you think you hear it!!!!!!

I did specify ADI-2 DAC/Pro smile

My confusion was about "All" the adi2 etc,  I said it just to be sure, as for now we are talking more amongst ourselves then with the OP. And we all agree no difference, but disagreeing with MCchristmas (his avatar just updated) would be weird anyway lol!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,114

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

vinark wrote:

Hi Ramsi I mean the really old  ADI-2  https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/products/adi_2.php#1
But even with this one it might be impossible to hear a difference in a blind test.

Ah ok vini wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

14 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2022-01-06 19:00:39)

  • Registered: 2019-01-07
  • Posts: 1,462

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

MC wrote:

There is zero difference between Pro and DAC. What you describe is either imagination or you overlooked an active PEQ, B/T or Loudness setting in one unit causing an audible difference.

This comment from MC will quite likely point to the cause of any "differences"   

If one wishes to seriously A/B devices, or Set-Ups, care needs to taken to ensure that Levels, EQ, B/T, etc et al are precisely the same!   The smallest "oops!" sours the comparison, and renders it invalid. 

Not my Opinion, but rather the way a Scientifically Valid Comparison works.

Wow!  Imagine if Medical Science worked in the same manner as Audio Reviewers?   We'd all be dead.  sad

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

15 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2022-01-06 19:59:35)

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,658

Re: For playback system Adi-2 dac fs or Pro fs?

Big Off Topic warning...
With anaesthetics that is how it works, an educated average guess, with sometimes death as a result or almost just as worse feeling the whole operation.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632