1

Topic: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

The last firmware update, ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111, see thread here

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=34364

was well received and gave us a good time over Christmas and New Year. Thank you all for the positive feedback, it is so nice to see how you love the devices that we invest so much thought and time in!

The new update fixes one bug in the Pro, and does some fine tuning and finalizing of the new features added in that last firmware update:


Pro and DAC

- BB and BT have been added as band 0 and band 6 to the grapical EQ screen. They become adjustable as soon as Load B/T with Preset is set to ON. This finalizes the integration of B/T into the 5-band EQ, turing it into an easy to use 7-band one.

- Digital DC Protection got a third option: Filter. And from now on this one is Default. Existing customers need to select it manually. Filter adds a special, smooth high pass to the DA path, with zero latency, very low THD and phase deviation. This filter has a corner frequency of 7 Hz, to not only cancel DC but also reduce the amount of inaudible and imperceptible infrasound a bit that plagues some sources. The filter is the final solution for this topic, added to the FPGA, not the (already overloaded) DSP.

- Auto Standby now has the options 30min, 1h, 2h and 4h.

- Some visualization tuning: the horizontal level meter got 10 dB markers...


Pro

- Bugfix: USB recording from digital inputs works again in multichannel mode

- Selecting Display - Horizontal Meter - Post FX dBu now also shows dBu for the analog input. While this can be handy to measure the incoming signal, one will only see valid values when there is no processing active.

That's all, folks. Small list this time but we are sure you will like it!


The firmware update tools:

Win: https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/fut_madiface_win.zip

Mac: https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/fut_madiface_mac.zip


Updated manuals Pro, v 3.5:

German: https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_d.pdf

English: https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_e.pdf


Updated manuals DAC, v 3.0:

German: https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dacr_d.pdf

English: https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dacr_e.pdf

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

2

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Two additions: The level meter markers are in 10 dB spacing. Due to the logarithmic scale the area 0 to -10 dBFS is quite large, so an additional marker at - 5 dBFS has been added.

The below plot shows the effective frequency response of all 'DC' filters now available in the ADI-2 Pro and DAC.

Digital LoopbacK: Added as reference. It is not easy to measure that low frequencies, but the loopback shows that the system measures everything correctly within the presented range of 0.17 Hz (or 170 millihertz) up to 100 Hz.

ADC: AKM chip filter in AD path
RME: RME FPGA filter in AD path
No Filter: Effect of capacitive input coupling in the AD path

PEQ LC F 20 Hz Q 0.7: Band 1 of the PEQ set as Low Cut/High pass in the DA path. Lowest frequency value is 20 Hz, so at 10 Hz there is already an attenuation of 12 dB.

DA DC Filter: The latest setting Filter for the Digital DC Protection option. 7 Hz Low Cut/High Pass which attenuates 10 Hz only by 1.8 dB, but attenuates infrasound beow 10 Hz sufficiently, and DC completely.

https://archiv.rme-audio.de/images/adi2prodac_dcfilters.png

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

That's all, folks. Small list this time but we are sure you will like it!

We do, thanks again!

4 (edited by ramses 2022-01-20 13:52:43)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Many thanks.

The scales in the horizontal meter are giving a very good overview about the value and looks very professional.

The consistent visualization of B/T as two more bands is excellent, this will make things more logic and will give a good overview about the resulting EQ setting.

Hoped for one feature request, was it not possible?
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 25#p180125
"When loading or saving a config it would be nice if it doesn't stop at "Do not load Volume".
This would give back the same comfortable/easier handling as before, where you can simply keep encoder 2 pushed.
"

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC, with  Digital DC Protection at default, no need to set the high pass filter anymore?

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

After looking a bit more, simply impressed wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

7 (edited by ning 2022-01-20 14:21:17)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Is this the final firmware update?

> Some visualization tuning: the horizontal level meter got 10 dB markers...

ummm... am I the only person who dislike this change (imho it's not pretty because it does not scale linearly...)? can we get an option for not showing it?

it doesn't really make it easier to read  because there's no labels such as -10, -20...,
and to get the numbers, the more straightforward thing is to read the number directly on the right instead.

8

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Give it some time. It's unusual first, but matches the design of the Analyzer above it. And such log scale uneven spaces are fully normal and found everywhere. Getting used to this the old one just looks empty...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

9

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Johannes AU wrote:

MC, with  Digital DC Protection at default, no need to set the high pass filter anymore?

With DCP set to Filter, yes.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

10 (edited by ning 2022-01-20 14:40:55)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

LOL, just like everyone eventually are forced to get used to the iOS 7's flat design smile

yeah, i see it vertical every day (most software programs have it) with labels, but horizontally perhaps it's the first time. and it's without labels....

11 (edited by ramses 2022-01-20 14:38:42)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

ning wrote:

Is this the final firmware update?

> Some visualization tuning: the horizontal level meter got 10 dB markers...

ummm... am I the only person who dislike this change (imho it's not pretty because it does not scale linearly...)? can we get an option for not showing it?

it doesn't really make it easier to read  because there's no labels such as -10, -20...,
and to get the numbers, the more straightforward thing is to read the number directly on the right instead.

Surely matter of taste and configurable would be an option ..

But I do not fully understand the markers values/scale. According to the level meter for "L" channel the value is "-31.3", so the 4th marker from right is -30dB. It appears as if the distance between -20 and -10dB marker seems to be too high or what are the numbers behind the markers? For me it looks at the moment as if this wouldn't fit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/asf7ohegqtetw8m/2022-01-20%20ADI-2%20Pro%20Horizontal%20Level%20Meter%20-%20Scale.jpg?dl=1

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

ramses wrote:
ning wrote:

Is this the final firmware update?

> Some visualization tuning: the horizontal level meter got 10 dB markers...

ummm... am I the only person who dislike this change (imho it's not pretty because it does not scale linearly...)? can we get an option for not showing it?

it doesn't really make it easier to read  because there's no labels such as -10, -20...,
and to get the numbers, the more straightforward thing is to read the number directly on the right instead.

Surely matter of taste and configurable would be an option ..

But I do not fully understand the markers values/scale. According to the level meter for "L" channel the value is "-31.3", so the 4th marker from right is -30dB. It appears as if the distance between -20 and -10dB marker seems to be too high or what are the numbers behind the markers? For me it looks at the moment as if this wouldn't fit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/asf7ohegqtetw8m/2022-01-20%20ADI-2%20Pro%20Horizontal%20Level%20Meter%20-%20Scale.jpg?dl=1

I would like to have a diagram of the marker values ......

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Johannes AU wrote:
ramses wrote:
ning wrote:

Is this the final firmware update?

> Some visualization tuning: the horizontal level meter got 10 dB markers...

ummm... am I the only person who dislike this change (imho it's not pretty because it does not scale linearly...)? can we get an option for not showing it?

it doesn't really make it easier to read  because there's no labels such as -10, -20...,
and to get the numbers, the more straightforward thing is to read the number directly on the right instead.

Surely matter of taste and configurable would be an option ..

But I do not fully understand the markers values/scale. According to the level meter for "L" channel the value is "-31.3", so the 4th marker from right is -30dB. It appears as if the distance between -20 and -10dB marker seems to be too high or what are the numbers behind the markers? For me it looks at the moment as if this wouldn't fit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/asf7ohegqtetw8m/2022-01-20%20ADI-2%20Pro%20Horizontal%20Level%20Meter%20-%20Scale.jpg?dl=1

I would like to have a diagram of the marker values ......

Yes. Maybe 0dB should be a thicker vertikal bar (2 instead of 1 pixel) or alternatively should have red color so that the marker can stay a thin and precise line.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

14 (edited by KaiS 2022-01-20 15:50:23)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

ramses wrote:

.. I do not fully understand the markers values/scale. According to the level meter for "L" channel the value is "-31.3", so the 4th marker from right is -30dB. It appears as if the distance between -20 and -10dB marker seems to be too high or what are the numbers behind the markers? For me it looks at the moment as if this wouldn't fit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/asf7ohegqtetw8m/2022-01-20%20ADI-2%20Pro%20Horizontal%20Level%20Meter%20-%20Scale.jpg?dl=1

The scale is -5 dB, -10 dB, - 20 dB, ...
This is the reason for the “uneven” spacing in the upper range.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

KaiS wrote:
ramses wrote:

.. I do not fully understand the markers values/scale. According to the level meter for "L" channel the value is "-31.3", so the 4th marker from right is -30dB. It appears as if the distance between -20 and -10dB marker seems to be too high or what are the numbers behind the markers? For me it looks at the moment as if this wouldn't fit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/asf7ohegqtetw8m/2022-01-20%20ADI-2%20Pro%20Horizontal%20Level%20Meter%20-%20Scale.jpg?dl=1

The scale is -5 dB, -10 dB, - 20 dB, ...
This is the reason for the “uneven” spacing in the upper range.


Well, yes, I compared it at DigiCheck ... tongue

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Very nice to see B/T in the eq! A small bug I think: when activating and then deactivating 'Load B/T with Preset', the B/T encoders no longer work (even via remote).

Regarding 'Filter' in DC protection: is this filter always on, or only for a short time when a DC signal is detected?

UCX II, Quadmic II, ADI-2 DAC FS
Follow me on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@thedilettantepianist

17 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-21 03:18:18)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Data wrote:

Very nice to see B/T in the eq! A small bug I think: when activating and then deactivating 'Load B/T with Preset', the B/T encoders no longer work (even via remote).

Regarding 'Filter' in DC protection: is this filter always on, or only for a short time when a DC signal is detected?

Do you mean the B/T encoders no longer work while the unit is at a preset? Wil it work again if not at preset?

According to the latest manual v3.0:
Filter adds a special, smooth 1st order high pass to the signal path, which shows zero delay (latency), very low distortion and lower phase deviation as standard digital filters. This filter intentionally not only removes DC, but also attenuates the inaudible, but often to find infrasound junk
through a corner frequency of 7 Hz. The filter operates in all sample rates, but not in DSD mode.

I guess it is permanent, if I understands it wrong, MC will correct me.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

18

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Data wrote:

Very nice to see B/T in the eq! A small bug I think: when activating and then deactivating 'Load B/T with Preset', the B/T encoders no longer work (even via remote).

This is not flagged as bug but one of the internal interactions which are known. B/T is disabled then, you need to enable them again, button on the remote. Mixing all the functions together causes one or the other small unexpected event, but on the other hand you don't constantly switch that option on and off.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

19 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-21 10:08:52)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:
Data wrote:

Very nice to see B/T in the eq! A small bug I think: when activating and then deactivating 'Load B/T with Preset', the B/T encoders no longer work (even via remote).

This is not flagged as bug but one of the internal interactions which are known. B/T is disabled then, you need to enable them again, button on the remote. Mixing all the functions together causes one or the other small unexpected event, but on the other hand you don't constantly switch that option on and off.


So, suppose we merge, or load B/T with preset to make it a 7 band PEQ, then when we want to alter the B/T bands, we should do it first and then load it to the PEQ page, right?

(edit) problem/question solved by my ownself by trying/experience it.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

20

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

What means 'Load it to the PEQ page'?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

21 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-21 10:05:17)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

What means 'Load it to the PEQ page'?


Sorry for my English, I should write, load it to the PEQ preset particular page.

I mean we set the desired B/T value first, and then select Load B/T to preset on, and store it to a particular preset (1-10 ...) to make it a fixed PEQ graph with 7 bands.


P.S.
Ar .. after several try and experienced it, now I understand how it works, question answered by my ownself....

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

22 (edited by giacomino76 2022-01-21 10:00:29)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Hello, I have the version of the adi-2 dac with the old remote, how do you enable the B/T?
thank you.

23 (edited by ramses 2022-01-21 10:37:44)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

giacomino76 wrote:

Hello, I have the version of the adi-2 dac with the old remote, how do you enable the B-T?
thank you.

Always possible at the DAC in the I/O submenue:
I/O -> Main Output 1/2
        | Phones Out 3/4 -> Bass Treble -> B/T Enable -> ON | OFF

Alternatively by remap key. I am using this key remappings for the ADI-2 Pro:
Options -> SPDIF / Remap Keys -> Remap Keys ON
1) Options -> SPDIF / Remap Keys -> VOL (1)      -> Toggle View
2) Options -> SPDIF / Remap Keys -> I/O (2)       -> Toggle Ph/Line
3) Options -> SPDIF / Remap Keys -> EQ (3) -> EQ+B/T+Ld 1-4
4) Options -> SPDIF / Remap Keys -> Setup (4)   -> Mute all

to 1) useful to switch between different displays using remote
to 2) to toggle between monitors/phones when phones are permanently plugged
to 3) useful to turn off/on all potential sound manipulations (in this case to reactivate Bass why I mention this here)
to 4) if you sit next beside the ADI-2 to be able to mute quickly

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

I cannot activate even if it is ON

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

ning wrote:

Is this the final firmware update?

> Some visualization tuning: the horizontal level meter got 10 dB markers...

ummm... am I the only person who dislike this change (imho it's not pretty because it does not scale linearly...)? can we get an option for not showing it?

it doesn't really make it easier to read  because there's no labels such as -10, -20...,
and to get the numbers, the more straightforward thing is to read the number directly on the right instead.


Just like ning I dislike the new horizonzal level meter too...an option to switch between the old and the new one would be cool.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

I for one love the new meter design. And the dBu display for analog input is extremely convenient.

ning wrote:

... and to get the numbers, the more straightforward thing is to read the number directly on the right instead.

No, as this depends on the settings (dB or dBu)

27

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

giacomino76 wrote:

I cannot activate even if it is ON

More details if you want help. Is the option in brackets? DSD playback or highest sample rate active?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Yes option (ON) between brackets dsd active and maximum frequency 768 active.
If you need the phone number or email I am attaching the photos in detail.
Thank you!

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Now with Audirvana the B / T works if I use the imac it deactivates the BT control and goes in brackets ...

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

giacomino76 wrote:

Yes option (ON) between brackets dsd active and maximum frequency 768 active.
If you need the phone number or email I am attaching the photos in detail.
Thank you!

Maybe also useful to you:
How to post pictures on RME forum (EN/DE)
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … rum-EN-DE/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

I remember that manual states clearly that at high sample rates B/T & EQ can not be enabled at the same time

32 (edited by ramses 2022-01-22 12:42:45)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

KaiS wrote:
ramses wrote:

.. I do not fully understand the markers values/scale. According to the level meter for "L" channel the value is "-31.3", so the 4th marker from right is -30dB. It appears as if the distance between -20 and -10dB marker seems to be too high or what are the numbers behind the markers? For me it looks at the moment as if this wouldn't fit.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/asf7ohegqtetw8m/2022-01-20%20ADI-2%20Pro%20Horizontal%20Level%20Meter%20-%20Scale.jpg?dl=1

The scale is -5 dB, -10 dB, - 20 dB, ...
This is the reason for the “uneven” spacing in the upper range.

Thanks Kai,

now the penny dropped, my confusion arose for two things
a) thought on the right side would be maybe some space reserved for displaying overs like in Digicheck/TM
b) in Digicheck the markers are being provided in different intervals

While making a small drawing to compare TM / DIGIcheck / ADI-2 DAC/Pro's level meter
I got some additional ideas that make things maybe more clear.
Not sure though whether everybody likes it or whether it would overload the display:
- colorize horizonal level meters like in TM / DIGIcheck
- maybe best to use the selected display color for the level meter between -10 and infinity

Not sure whether the resolution would allow for this, in visio at that resolution it was possible,
but when I look now at the display again, maybe not possible, but maybe 0dB should at least be shown clearly:
- add at least some numbers to the markers to show clearly where 0dB is and maybe some more

And maybe the option to turned this on/off, like it has been mentioned already.

Note: for a better overview and not to overload the drawing below:
- left channel shows only smaller pre-fader level meter
- right channel shows ownly post-fader level meter

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qpk0mtiwlsuce5x/ADI-2%20DAC%20Pro%20Level%20Meter.jpg?dl=1

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

I think your suggestion looks perfect.

For me it would be only usable with attenuators because I'm mostly listening with about -40 db in the nearfield at the moment which means that one or two markers would be enough. wink
Without attenuators I would have to change the volume and the phase of the subwoofer to reach -20 or -10 db. The connected monitors are not the issue because I could adjust the variable gain.

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3

34

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

That proposal does not make much sense to me. How did you miss that there is a yellow area (starting at -3 dBFS) already? In both horizontal and vertical level meters? And that Overs are clearly displayed as red bar? And that we even have this all dynamically shifted with the load dependent level meter  (see manual)?

Well, if you use Amber then obviously you will not easily see a yellow warning area...maybe that's the problem...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

35 (edited by ramses 2022-01-22 14:16:49)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Yes maybe because of this color. Another thing: the pre and post-fx levels are not that high in my case as I use replay gain tags to listen to music at an equal level.

After I looked at it now more often, what values the markers represents, its after some time easier for me to see/remember.

Was just an idea.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

That proposal does not make much sense to me. How did you miss that there is a yellow area (starting at -3 dBFS) already? In both horizontal and vertical level meters? And that Overs are clearly displayed as red bar? And that we even have this all dynamically shifted with the load dependent level meter  (see manual)?

Well, if you use Amber then obviously you will not easily see a yellow warning area...maybe that's the problem...

I just checked and it looks like the yellow threshold on the horizontal meter is at -2dB, actually. In the vertical meter it is at -3dB and matches DigiCheck.

Now, with the added graticule (-5, -10, -20, ...) I think this is quite perfect for both input and output meters. Meter color Red gives the highest contrast for the -2dB transition, whereas Cyan highlights the graticule markers best. Orange gives the best compromise for me and is my favorite color anyway.

37 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-22 18:08:11)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Internal distortion problem, which I was introduced with 250 / 102 and got rid of in previous 259 / 111 -version, seems to be back in this newest firmware. It happens on following conditions:

-ADI-2 Pro FS R
-more than -8.0 -volume
-analog input as source
-PH 3/4 as output
-Basic mode: DAC
-loudness: OFF
-B/T: OFF
-EQ: ON
-Crossfeed: 5
-Hi-Power
-analog input ref. level +24 dBu
-sample rate 192 kHz
-EQ´s in use:

     -B1: +6.0 dB, 25 Hz, Q 0.7
     -B2: -2,5 dB, 150 Hz, Q 0,5
     -B3: -2.0 dB, 1,33 kHz, Q 1.4
     -B4: -3.0 dB, 3.2 kHz, Q 2.2

-other settings on default

-most dynamic movie soundtrack on playback, Blade Runner 2049 opening -scene, for example


Results sharp snapping -type distortion sound (digital clipping) in loudest parts of the signal. Level meters won´t show clipping, maximum level incoming to analog input stays -1,4 dB below clip. Analog feeder used is Yamaha RX-V575 -avr from its headphone output, headphone is Sennheiser HD 600, test signal said Blade Runner 2049 -opening scene & its Dolby TrueHD soundtrack.


Distortion doesn´t happen on previous 259 / 111 -firmware, on same settings and conditions, scene passes clean without clipping. In my opinion, this indicates that something in internal processing of ADI-2 Pro, running other than 259 / 111 -firmware, is causing this. Could RME professionals take a look?

38

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Check your level meters - do they show Post FX? Then you will be able to see distortion/overloads.

Also I am not aware that we 'fixed internal distortion' nor that we had that problem at all.

You wrote 'other settings on default'. Default Volume of the Phones output is Low Power and VOL - 15 dB. I doubt this is your current setting.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

39 (edited by KSTR 2022-01-22 20:32:29)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MstrC-117 wrote:

[...]
-analog input ref. level +24 dBu
[...]
Level meters won´t show clipping, maximum level incoming to analog input stays -1,4 dB below clip. Analog feeder used is Yamaha RX-V575 -avr from its headphone output
[...]

By this you are driving the analog input unbalanced to +22.6dBu (+24 -1.4).

I just measured this and in these extreme cases (balanced input driven unbalanced to max level) the input sinewave clips at +22.5dBu, so you are loosing 1.5dB of headroom from this unusal drive case.
Given the movie soundtrack will be low frequency rumbles with high peak values it is likely that you're just right on the edge of clipping the input. Hit and miss.

Firmware has no effect in this, it's a purely analog problem.

Turning the volume a bit down on the Yamaha would be the most simple fix, wouldn't it?

40 (edited by david.aj.silva 2022-01-22 22:05:52)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

I really appreciate having T/B part of the equaliser. My only request is to extend the level range for T/B to be the same as the other bands. +/- 6 db is not quite enough for my setup. Thanks!

41 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-23 00:07:28)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

Check your level meters - do they show Post FX? Then you will be able to see distortion/overloads.

Also I am not aware that we 'fixed internal distortion' nor that we had that problem at all.

You wrote 'other settings on default'. Default Volume of the Phones output is Low Power and VOL - 15 dB. I doubt this is your current setting.

I tried to describe my settings... but seemingly failed. Meant to say, I haven´t done anything weird. Like bundled all EQ´s together, trying to have 5 x 12 dB (+6 dB) boost @ 20 Hz...  smile

Yes, phones output Hi-Power -state and over -8.0 -volume levels are very much my settings. Level meters measurement position setting is Post-FX.

42 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-23 00:05:53)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

KSTR wrote:
MstrC-117 wrote:

[...]
-analog input ref. level +24 dBu
[...]
Level meters won´t show clipping, maximum level incoming to analog input stays -1,4 dB below clip. Analog feeder used is Yamaha RX-V575 -avr from its headphone output
[...]

By this you are driving the analog input unbalanced to +22.6dBu (+24 -1.4).

I just measured this and in these extreme cases (balanced input driven unbalanced to max level) the input sinewave clips at +22.5dBu, so you are loosing 1.5dB of headroom from this unusal drive case.
Given the movie soundtrack will be low frequency rumbles with high peak values it is likely that you're just right on the edge of clipping the input. Hit and miss.

Firmware has no effect in this, it's a purely analog problem.

Turning the volume a bit down on the Yamaha would be the most simple fix, wouldn't it?


Yes sherlock... it obviously is NEAR clipping if gap to clip is only 1,4 db... hardest AD/DA experts should derive that even without measuring... big_smile
AD-converters on general like that they are driven as high levels as possible without clipping them. That is called dynamic range optimizing and noise floor maximizing.

Shouldn´t ADI-2 have pro-precision -class meters which can be trusted? If it tells almost 1,5 dB reserve to OVR, but still nevertheless reaches OVR, it´s like Lada speedometer -class (unreliable peace of ****) device... if those beloved car analogies are allowed...

If it is analog input running secretly to clipping though, how come reducing ADI-2´s volume (OUTPUT level) can remove the problem then?? By the way, distortion occurs also in parts of the said Blade Runner 2049 -scene where analog input (horizontal) meter barely tickles -3 dB...

Also, what difference it does, if voltage source feeding ADI´s analog input is balanced or unbalanced? Voltage is voltage... Unbalanced sources are, according manual,  allowed and even encouraged to use. No mentions of any restrictions, input stage overload -reservations or such.

Reducing Yamaha´s volume doesn´t help. It just moves problem to begin that much later on volume scale.



And like I stated, on 259 / 111 -firmware, and on exactly same settings and volume levels otherwise, this problem won´t happen. So it very much must be some kind of weird firmware issue.





Yes, my usage habits may seem a little bit unusual. But I don´t normally listen that loud, just for testing-new-gear -purposes. Like now.
Those multichannel, super dynamic video soundtracks are best test material which is. 2ch music recordings, even at their best, are too easy-peasy compressed crap. Won´t take measure of gear properly. To put gear on real test one must enter to realm of multichannel movie soundtracks...

Well... for obvious reasons, I´m continuing to run on 259 / 111. Didn´t expect gear this professional, celebrated and expensive to have this kind of problems. ADI-2 Pro was little disappointment in this regard. sad

43

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

+ 24 dBu on unbalanced inputs is not fully supported. This is not explicitely mentioned in the manual because usually no one has a source reaching those levels. Unbalanced is typically capped at +21 dBu peak level, everywhere. So it does make a dfference if you use balanced or unbalanced. Now your case is unusual as you use the phones output of a power amp, which is typically taken directly from the speaker output with a simple serious resistor (cheap and dirty and the reason we can sell better headphone amps...). The voltage levels available here easily overload ANY line electronics, so you DO NEED to keep the level lower at the Yamaha. To get the right level set the input to +19 dBu and watch the ADI's input level meter below the Analyser.

Regarding your other comment: You have a full scale level input signal which is then processed with EQ and easily goes above 0 dBFS. To keep this signal without distortion you are required to reduce the volume at the ADI output (Phones) so that the Phones Analyzer's Post FX level meter no longer shows overs.

If you experience differences between the two firmware versions then I suspect this is caused by an overlooked setting that behaves differently. There is definitely no difference in headroom and distortion, and especially not in analog input overdrive behaviour (firmware can't change that).

Finally: the HD600 has no sub-bass, that's why for more rumble you upped the EQ at 25 Hz. I agree. But even at modest volumes you then run in danger to hear crackling of the headphone drivers, not the driving electronics, with the sources that you mentioned.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

44 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-23 17:58:45)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Ok... so you don´t have a clue what could be the actual problem. sad


Did further testings, and the weird fact remains: while on 259 / 111 -version maximum fully undistorted volume level with those said test scenes and settings is -1.0, 262 / 112 -version begins to distort already at -8.0 -level. Nothing else but firmware version changed. POST-FX -meters on use, no clipping showing either analog input or Phones Output 3/4 -side.

My conclusion is that RME has accidentially messed something up when implementing these new features on top of each other along the development journey. ADI-2´s firmware must be quite different now, how it was three (?) years ago when it rolled out to market first place? Lot of possibilities to collaterally fuck something up...
RME user base does also seem to use this device mostly digitally connected and with easy (unrevealing) 2ch -material, concentrating on level meter new color options etc. "important" details. Which greatly helps these kind of bugs to stay under the radar, until the end of product supported lifecycle. sad

45 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-01-23 17:43:26)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

+ 24 dBu on unbalanced inputs is not fully supported. This is not explicitely mentioned in the manual because usually no one has a source reaching those levels. Unbalanced is typically capped at +21 dBu peak level, everywhere. So it does make a dfference if you use balanced or unbalanced. Now your case is unusual as you use the phones output of a power amp, which is typically taken directly from the speaker output with a simple serious resistor (cheap and dirty and the reason we can sell better headphone amps...). The voltage levels available here easily overload ANY line electronics, so you DO NEED to keep the level lower at the Yamaha. To get the right level set the input to +19 dBu and watch the ADI's input level meter below the Analyser.

Regarding your other comment: You have a full scale level input signal which is then processed with EQ and easily goes above 0 dBFS. To keep this signal without distortion you are required to reduce the volume at the ADI output (Phones) so that the Phones Analyzer's Post FX level meter no longer shows overs.

If you experience differences between the two firmware versions then I suspect this is caused by an overlooked setting that behaves differently. There is definitely no difference in headroom and distortion, and especially not in analog input overdrive behaviour (firmware can't change that).

Finally: the HD600 has no sub-bass, that's why for more rumble you upped the EQ at 25 Hz. I agree. But even at modest volumes you then run in danger to hear crackling of the headphone drivers, not the driving electronics, with the sources that you mentioned.

Exactly how it is not FULLY supported? Is it PARTIALLY supported, though?? For what I know, electronic circuits care mostly about voltage levels which is put into them... So how exatcly is this RME input stage selective, if that +24 dBU comes from unbalanced or balanced feeder? My horizontal BS-detectiometer gives now almost full scale -levels... big_smile

This same Yamaha has fed, with this exactly same connection method, several other line level accepting headphone amplifiers before ADI. With zero problems. Higly doubt that input level is problem in this case either. Namely... as a recap... I haven´seen single OVR-indication from any of my ADI-2 Pro´s POST-FX -meters, input or output side, since I did level adjustments on its taking to use -installation with Yammu. Do you suppose that ADI could still, partially, hurt its analog input feelings secretly though, without showing it in its meters??


I use maximum ref. level to minimise Yamaha´s noise levels, which are not actual high end -class. +24 dBu setting gives most silent backround.
Increasing ADI´s input sensitivity starts penalty shot banging noise level -wise. For second, it doesn´t help anything to this problem. Same distortions happen, only with bigger backround noise.



What comes to my headphone EQ-settings, those very EQ-settings which were posted previously, are oratory1990´s "Optimum HiFi Curve" -settings for HD 600.

Senn HD 600, that trusty old workhorse, has in my use taken that kind of bass upshelvings for years without any other side effects but sturdy improvement to its bass reproduction. Its electroacoustics can handle that +6 dB shelf-lift @ 25 Hz with ease, just upgrading it to unbeatable newer "high-end" headphone killing machine. It doesn´t make those distortion effects for sure.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Thank you for the "Improved display and adjustment of balance via remote control" and for the possible SW potential for "Software control of input reference levels" in the future. Now I no longer need binoculars to operate the second ADI-2 DAC - great. Maybe RME could or better should motivate John Mulcahy to support the software control function with REW.


Here are now only some notes about ADI-2 DAC FS 78 / 48 unit and manual:

A: EQ function - B/T Enable changes activation:

A1. EQ Enable ON
A2. Load B/T with Preset ON
A3. Preset Select: Manual | Load ... -> Temp
A4. B/T Enable OFF
A5. Press EQ button:

A6. Changing gain (BB, BT) don't changing Bode plot
A7. Changing values (B1 to B5: G, F, Q, Filter) activates B/T (B/T Enable ON)

It could be that the function of A7 is intentional. However, it does not correspond to intuitive operation.


B: EQ function - Proposal for the general display (Bode plot) of the 7 bands:

In order to always display all 7 bands, we need an additional differentiation of the states by dashed or dotted lines of bands B1 and B5:

Bands B1 and B5:
EQ OFF - B/T OFF: grey line as realised
EQ ON - B/T OFF: red and blue line as realised
EQ ON - B/T ON: red and blue dotted line
EQ OFF - B/T ON: grey bold dashed line


C: EQ function - Sequence of the bands:

C1. Encoder VOLUME: BT, BB, B1 ... B5
C2. Encoder 2: BB, B1 ... B5, BT


D: EQ function - Proposal for the consistent function of encoder Volume:

Unintentional change of gain of the bands:
Except for adjustment work, VOLUME is operated considerably more often than PEQ, BT.
If you switch quickly through the bands with the large VOLUME encoder to look at the values, gain changes could be caused by asymmetric pressure.

Currently written in the ADI-2 DAC FS 78 / 48 manual:

Turning encoder 2 or pushing VOLUME repeatedly scrolls
through all 5 bands, as can be seen in the parameter line (B1
to B5). VOLUME steers the gain of the current band, the other
parameters are not available for adjustment.
This view pro-
vides quick view and verification of all parameters of all bands,
without the risk of changing any of them unintentionally.

Push encoder 2 to select the parameter line, with all values
now shown in white color. They can be adjusted by turning the
three encoders. ...


D1: Proposal:

Turning encoder 2 or pushing VOLUME repeatedly scrolls
through all 5 bands, as can be seen in the parameter line (B1
to B5)
This view pro-
vides quick view and verification of all parameters of all bands,
without the risk of changing any of them unintentionally.


E: I/O function - One idea to save storage space:

Menus "Parametric EQ" and "Bass/Treble" are reduced to the function ... Enable OFF | ON.


F: ADI-2 DAC FS 78 / 48 manual:

F1: DAC / PRO: Interestingly, there are no pictures of the device. Proposal: https://www.rme-usa.com/files/uploads/R … -DAC-C.png could be easily inserted for the DAC FS.

F2: Page 22: "12.2 Subpage Parametric EQ": The text could be replaced or supplemented by a table. In my opinion, a table would also reduce the number of incorrect purchases. If the table is exported as a graphic, this graphic could be shown in other places.

F3: Page 24: Missing: ... BB, BT, if Load B/T with Preset is set to ON.

F4: Page 57: Text headings for the graphics Sharp / Slow are offset.

F5: Page 59: "Notes: Sharp/SD Sharp and Slow/SD Slow are congruent." could be changed to "Note: SD Sharp/Sharp or SD Slow/Slow are congruent."

F6: Page 60: "31.7 Distortion Measurements" could be added with "Measurements with ES9028Q2M, measurements with AK4493 look for manual ..."

47

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MstrC-117 wrote:

Exactly how it is not FULLY supported? Is it PARTIALLY supported, though??.

Exactly like I explained. Balanced it accepts +24 dBu, unbalanced no more than +22.5 dBu. Then the input stage will clip.

MstrC-117 wrote:

For what I know, electronic circuits care mostly about voltage levels which is put into them... So how exatcly is this RME input stage selective, if that +24 dBU comes from unbalanced or balanced feeder?.

Sorry, but I have no time for electronics basics teaching lessons here in the forum. You either accept my word that it behaves like that or not.

MstrC-117 wrote:

This same Yamaha has fed, with this exactly same connection method, several other line level accepting headphone amplifiers before ADI.

Then I guess they all had a volume pot. Show me a headphone amp that can accept more than +21 dBu at its unbalanced input without a volume pot (that serves as input attenuator prior to any electronic circuit, thus obviously allows any input level).

MstrC-117 wrote:

With zero problems. Higly doubt that input level is problem in this case either. Namely... as a recap... I haven´seen single OVR-indication from any of my ADI-2 Pro´s POST-FX -meters, input or output side, since I did level adjustments on its taking to use -installation with Yammu. Do you suppose that ADI could still, partially, hurt its analog input feelings secretly though, without showing it in its meters?? .

As explained - on the input side yes, output I don't think so.

MstrC-117 wrote:

Senn HD 600, that trusty old workhorse, has in my use taken that kind of bass upshelvings for years without any other side effects but sturdy improvement to its bass reproduction. Its electroacoustics can handle that +6 dB shelf-lift @ 25 Hz with ease, just upgrading it to unbeatable newer "high-end" headphone killing machine. It doesn´t make those distortion effects for sure.

That was just an idea. Some people hear very loud up to the drivers clipping. I did not say that this is the guaranteed cause.

MstrC-117 wrote:

Ok... so you don´t have a clue what could be the actual problem.

Your way of motivating us to search for an unknown issue fails miserably.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

48

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

weme wrote:

Here are now only some notes about ADI-2 DAC FS 78 / 48 unit and manual:

A: EQ function - B/T Enable changes activation:

A1. EQ Enable ON
A2. Load B/T with Preset ON
A3. Preset Select: Manual | Load ... -> Temp
A4. B/T Enable OFF
A5. Press EQ button:

A6. Changing gain (BB, BT) don't changing Bode plot
A7. Changing values (B1 to B5: G, F, Q, Filter) activates B/T (B/T Enable ON)

It could be that the function of A7 is intentional. However, it does not correspond to intuitive operation.

Adding the B/T stuff to the PEQ is extremely complicated under the hood. We did our best to cover as many cases as possible, but not everything can be done. That said please note that Temp and Manual are no Presets as such. So 'Load B/T with Preset' might not be valid for these.

weme wrote:

C: EQ function - Sequence of the bands:

C1. Encoder VOLUME: BT, BB, B1 ... B5
C2. Encoder 2: BB, B1 ... B5, BT.

IMHO fully unintuitive as well as confusing to present two orders and to not put BT at the end.

weme wrote:

F2: Page 22: "12.2 Subpage Parametric EQ": The text could be replaced or supplemented by a table. In my opinion, a table would also reduce the number of incorrect purchases. If the table is exported as a graphic, this graphic could be shown in other places.

I did not understand why this chapter causes 'incorrect purchases'?

Thanks for all the other points mentioned. Noted and considered.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

49 (edited by weme 2022-01-24 19:55:47)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

MC wrote:

I did not understand why this chapter causes 'incorrect purchases'?

It is only a personal comment, based on my experience in dealing with documentations:

The recognition of functions/dependencies is usually much quicker and associated with fewer errors by means of a picture (here a table) than by means of a text.

A buyer (consumer, not professional) needs a device with EQ functions. Does this buyer take the effort to understand the description (without paper and pencil) or does he order the unit and try it out? I have my doubts: in Germany, free return shipping is still offered.


Just a few additions only for your information:

F7: Page 23: "Die Güte (Quality factor) ist in Band 1 bis 3 einstellbar von 0,5 bis 9,9, in Band 3 und 4 bis 5,0," change to "Die Güte (Quality factor) ist in Band 1 bis 3 einstellbar von 0,5 bis 9,9, in Band 4 und 5 bis 5,0,"


Appendix to "Peak, Shelf, High Cut and High Pass":

RME produces devices for professional use. With the ADI-2 PRO / DAC RME has now for the first time been able to convince considerably more consumers to buy them. With the ADI-2 DAC this was planned in the same way. There will be consumers who are not familiar with terms - e.g. "Peak, Shelf, High Cut and High Pass". A help could be appendices, which are inserted at the end of the document. By using graphics, the appendices would be language-neutral. The effort for referencing the attachment(s) in the text would be very low.


Extend production period for current ADI-2 PRO / DAC:

In the foreseeable future, firmware updates will only be available for special cases.
I believe that with a revised user interface, more buyers could be generated. These changes cost money and tie up resources (development, support). Only RME can find out if it could be worthwhile.

Proposals:

e.g.:
Using the rotary function of the VOLUME encoder for vertical scrolling in the "I/O | EQ | SETUP" menus: Redundant to encoder 1 + 2 (vertical scrolling) if the memory space is sufficient otherwise substitute for encoder 1 + 2. Please note: I did not study the user interface of the ADI-2 PRO.

If "E: I/O function - One idea to save storage space:" were realised, space could possibly be created for a new "Expert" function in the "SETUP" menu:
With "Expert ON", the full range of functions would be enabled. E.g. changes of parameters of outputs that are not currently activated.
...

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 78 / 48 and ADI-2 Pro 262 / 112

Dear MC, I appreciate all the effort you and your colleagues at RME are putting into your products and their firmware/software. Absolutely marvelous!!

I am using an ADI-2 DAC FS since about a year now, and I like the sound and the features.

One little wish: Could you implement one (or two) more reduced brightness levels for the display and volume LED, say 10% (and 5%)? I sometimes like to keep the display on, watching the spectrum analyzer, but in a dimly lit living room even the lowest setting 20% somehow seems too bright...