Topic: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Hello again,

I'm finalizing the setup for my HD600.
Here it is. I still have a few questions pending.

Hello again,

I came up with the following set up for my HD600. But I still have a few questions pending.

Phone output 3/4
Source : AUTO
Hi power : OFF (or maybe ON I need it)

>> Auto ref. : ON
Question : Am I correct ? I sounds like a great feature to optimize the level of moise.

Mono : OFF

>> Set up I haven’t touch not knowing what the effect would be
Width : 1.00
DA Filter : SD Sharp
De-Emphasis : Auto
Loopback : OFF
>> Any thought ?

>> DIM : OFF
Question : what is DIM ?


DA Filter : SD Sharp
M/S Proc : OFF
Loopback : OFF
Phase invert : OFF

>> Crossfeed : 3 (I will try different levels unless you have a suggestion)

Dig DC Protection : Filter
>> Question : I was hesitating between ON and Filter. Any suggestion ?

EQ enable : NO (for the moment)
Bass/Treble : OFF
Loudness : OFF

SETUP
Dual phones : OFF (no need for a second headphone)
Bal Phones mode : NO I will stick with the unbalanced mode for the moment.
Toggle Ph/Line : OFF (I use the mute v. TRS 3/4 to mute the rear output.
Mute v. TRS1/2 : Not applicable because Dual phone is OFF
Mute v. TRS ¾ : ON

How does it sound ?
Your thoughts are very welcome.

2 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-17 23:51:09)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Everything fine, except:

It’s a matter of taste, but I don’t use the crossfade and stay with the full width and original sound of the recording.

3 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-02-18 19:51:04)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Have never understood how people can pretend being some hardcore headphone dBu-Hz -audiophiles, but still happily listening skull soundproofed from middle to two deaf halves...


Crossfeed is a mandatory feature in natural headphone listening. To put it short, it removes "virtual earplugs" from listeners ears or "soundproofed wall" between them. Without crossfeed it´s possible to hear BASS FROM OTHER EAR ONLY. Which is the one of the most unnatural things to be encountered in world of audio. Other audio tech nerd features won´t mean shit if this core-level acousto-physical basic anomaly is not properly addressed.

I personally won´t put headphones on my head without crossfeed, have come allergic for infinite channel separated bare stereo on headphones. Got kinda listening hangover from it in <1 minute. Before founding crossfeed I considered headphones for autistic rubberheads or little kids only -listening form. That changed when I undertood how human hearing works, or doesn´t work in this case, and how crossfeed could fix it.


ADI´s crossfeed 3 is still quite mild setting, "earplugs" stay still on by certain degree i.e. signal has that "wide" ping-pong -headphone stereo effect remaining. By putting it directly to 5, enables the most natural headphone listening experience ADI-2 can offer.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

MstrC-117: Wiii, Wiiiii!!! As an autistic rubberhead im thankfull im finally diagnosed, and get the appropiate help I need. X-feed is the medicine.. Always wondered why my gear sound like shite.. Thnx a thousand times!

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

5 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-02-19 00:23:37)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Happy_amateur wrote:

MstrC-117: Wiii, Wiiiii!!! As an autistic rubberhead im thankfull im finally diagnosed, and get the appropiate help I need. X-feed is the medicine.. Always wondered why my gear sound like shite.. Thnx a thousand times!


I don´t have anything against soundproof-feed -listeners. smile Just their unnatural listening habits. While preaching traditional SNR/dBu/Hz -audio gospel elsewhere.


To be clear, if this is not clear for everybody already, crossfeed is for headphone listening only. Do not use it for speaker listening.

Crossfeed has strong physiological base, but of course audiophile manners and traditions stick hard.
Many seem to think it as some kind of optional gimmick only, which doesn´t matter. Or is matter of taste at highest. This definitely is not the case: crossfeed fixes one major, core-level retardness of headphone listening, generally for all homo sapiens -branded listeners. Regardless of taste.

Think how you could hear things from speakers or live when adjusting it. Quite a reduction to headphones (infinite) channel separation is needed to achieve it, natural "channel separation" of human ears is such a small.

But... if tradition & common herd-practice requires that old-school channel selective semi-soundproof -sound while on phones, be my quest. ADI-2 has tool to fix it, if you will, though. One must only dare to flush that audiophile tradition of ping-pong -headphone sound down to toilet and begin using it.



P.S. ADI´s DSP-based crossfeed is very good. Not a sign of those old analog RC-circuit CF´s random fluctuations etc. artifacts. Settings 1-4 are too mild (still ping-pongy) in my opinion, so far only 5 is OK.

6 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-20 21:12:20)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

I would like to ask you to argue on the topic please.
Listening is a very personal thing and different for each of us, this has to be accepted.

If you like Crossfeed - go for it.

But don’t just blindly use it just because it’s there or based on someone else’s opinion.
Use your own ears to decide if it’s for you.


My personal take on ADI-2’s (and other’s) Crossfeed for headphones:
Compared to listening on my room optimized 30k speaker system:

• Crossfeed from some degree to almost totally eliminates the ambience in the recording.
• Crossfeed dulls the sound and drastically and unnaturally changes the sound colors.
• Crossfeed changes the balance between instrumens, some get louder, some lower in mix volume.
• Crossfeed lowers the immersive effect good recordings can give you.
• Crossfeed evens out the differences between good and bad recordings, into an overall lower quality level.
• Crossfeed indeed approaches the sound of speakers in some way, but low quality ones under largely compromised, sub-optimum conditions like you usually find in typical domestic households with no focus on sound quality.
If one is used to this and wants to replicate it ... Crossfeed’s the tool to some degree.


Without Crossfeed sound reproduction on good headphones preserve the quality I’m used to from my speakers, while adding another dimension.


Listening on speakers or headphones are two different things, and no simple processing can turn one into the other.
I do like both for them being what they are.


For the best take of getting the headphone’s sound “out of the head” I suggest the AUDEZE Mobius.
It’s unique 3-D emulation in conjunction with Head Tracking approaches “musicians in a room” the closest I’ve yet come across on headphones, while largely avoiding the negative side-effects of HRTF emulation.
I never heard Smyth Realizer, might be I does go even further down this path, at a price.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

@FH1504: All your settings check out in my book. Except, turn crossfeed OFF for now. Get to know your box from this basic state and from there you can start to apply effects and EQ. Apply lightly and not everything at once. This is the best advice I can give as to sort out and apply your settings to your PERSONAL taste. Not everybody here understands that concept "personal taste" like there is some universal law for what to prefere. Although I would lean to agree with mr Kais about crossfeed.

DIM attenuates the sound by -20db.

Auto ref level will automatically go from lo- to hi-power when you crank up the volume. It works almost linear and the relais are clicking, but all in all its a pretty genius system.

Good luck on your purchase. ADI-2 DAC/PRO is great fun and a learning experience in itself. With this level of control, audio is finally "Back to the future" again.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

8 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-02-20 20:11:02)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

KaiS wrote:

I would like to ask you to argue on the topic please.
Listening is a very personal thing and different for each of us, this has to be accepted.

If you like Crossfade - go for it.

But don’t just blindly use it just because it’s there or based on someone else’s opinion.
Use your own ears to decide if it’s for you.

Setting on debate is crossFEED. Crossfade is... something else. Some kind of DJ-feature, in mixers, maybe?

I have used some form of crossfeed about 15 years now. Listening without it is pure torture.


KaiS wrote:

My personal take on ADI-2’s (and other’s) Crossfade for headphones:
Compared to listening on my room optimized 30k speaker system:

Your reference, your speakers, are almost certainly very colored due to room acoustics. If they are not soffit mounted and room attenuated at least, to say, by 50 kg of absortion material (wool) per cubic meter room volume. Only the best studios / custom install home theaters achieve this level of attenuation.

Your second reference (hp-stereo) is troughout colored by severe spatial distortion, due to deafness of your ears for each others signal. This is totally unnatural, and bare naked physical fact. It can´t be explicated for anything else.   


• Crossfade from some degree to almost totally eliminates the ambience in the recording.

That is not true. Just opposite: when deaf opposite ear begins to hear also / acoustical room effects are completely removed, natural ambience of recording gets out in its proper, natural portions and form.

• Crossfade dulls the sound and drastically and unnaturally changes the sound colors.

That is not true. Just opposite: when deaf opposite ear comes along / acoustical room effects are completely removed, sound comes to alive, and natural sound color can be heard.

• Crossfade changes the balance between instrumens, some get louder, some lower in mix volume.

That is partially true. But only on subjective level, because your references (headphone stereo, opposite ear plugged / loudspeakers in typical room, reflections from everywhere) are so colored themself.

• Crossfade lowers the immersive effect good recordings can give you.

That is abosolutely nonsense. Spatial distortion/room acoustics removed i.e. both ears open on headphones, good recordings can give you their true best.

• Crossfade evens out the differences between good and bad recordings, into an overall lower quality level.

That is just BS.

KaiS wrote:

• Crossfade indeed approaches the sound of speakers in some way, but low quality ones under largely compromised, sub-optimum conditions like you usually find in typical domestic households with no focus on sound quality.
If one is used to this and wants to replicate it ... Crossfade’s the tool to some degree.


Without Crossfade sound reproduction on good headphones preserve the quality I’m used to from my speakers, while adding another dimension.


On other thread you were recommending use of ADI-2´s loudness... makes suspecting that your references may not be entirely... hmmm... natural targeting.


As a aggregating summary crossfeed opens up your both ears to hear sounds on headphones. That is followed by getting rid of that so called spatial distortion of hp-stereo. No more plastic-bag-on-head/other-ear-only-bass-/insect-in-ear -effects.
Against speakers: crossfeed on phones get to take advantage of their "acoustic override" on full level, enabling them to leave all but very best speaker systems to shame their reverberation/reflections/standing waves -muddle existence.

Crossfeed won´t turn headphones to speakers, but does the best what can done to lousy headphone sound with tools ADI-2 has to offer. Next step from there would be personal HRTF measurement, like Genelec Aural ID. But that won´t be option ADI-2 has any more.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Thanx for hinting me on my typo, as recording engineer that was a Freudian slip that I correct in my posting.


Else:
What I describe is my personal listening experience, not from a theoretical approach.
This cannot be discussed away, specially as you don’t know nothing about my listening setups (home, studio), and it’s my own personal reception of crossfeed anyway.

As they say:
Your milage may vary, and you clearly stated the fact that your’s does.
Let everyone else decide by his own, listening is the key.


As busy recording engineer I have the best ever reference for sound, the real acoustic sound of real instruments and vocal, most days in my life.

So, I’ve never asked for headphones to sound like speakers.
I just take both as what they are:
Projectors to create a nice photograph of the original, not more.

Because that’s what a recorded acoustic sound is, it can approach the original in some aspects, but never represent all it’s facets.
And then there is sound that is created during a studio production, that doesn’t even exist before being recorded and mixed.

We put a lot of effort into producing the best possible quality, and I ask speakers and headphones to preserve and reproduce as much as possible from that quality.

That’s my point:
For me crossfeed audibly degrades the quality of a recording in the mentioned ways, and I stand with what I said.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

I personally can't stand listening to most recordings without a moderate amount of crossfeed (1..3) plus reduced stereo width (0.8...0.9). Some true audiophile recordings sound indeed better without any processing, sometimes much better, but that's the exception.
Since everything is adjustable in the RME, no worries.

11 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-02-21 01:24:41)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Only possibility of recording to get some advantage of switching crossfeed off from headphone signal chain, is if it´s already crossfed in recording phase. Some rare, weird "audiophile recordings" could be this kind, so called binaural recordings.

Spatial distortion of bare hp-stereo is too little known among audio folks; it has been there ever since headphones have existed and people are so accustomed to it. "This has always been this way". This thread is good example of it...

Luckily though, ADI-2 -users don´t have to follow this stone-aged hilbilly tradition, because we have ADI-2´s great Spatial Distortion Removal Tool on our free disposal. What a waste would it be to leave it off and listen on semi-deaf -mode...

Personal preference i.e. "because audio is invisible, all solutions are right" is the oldest escape of audio folks to do weird audio-things, without being busted... Crossfeed´s case this ain´t in effect though, because human physiology has so strong argument on behalf of it.



KaiS wrote:

Let everyone else decide by his own, listening is the key.

Good advice in general, but in world of audio that has high risk of leading eventually to listening WC-door handles, LEGO-block isolators and USB-cable differences. Some straight guidance is sometimes beneficial. Like now, regarding crossfeed. Hence crossfeed usage can be recommended, generally & automatically, for all headphone users! ESPECIALLY for state of the art -DSP-crossfeed -equipped ADI-2 users.

ADI-2 headphone users: ATTENTION! Present – crossfeed! Crossfeeds on 5, BOTH EARS OPEN. At ease.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Crossfeed reduces the perceived volume for the listener because both channels are mixed. If you want to compare low level information between crossfeed on/off you need to add 1db or 2db with crossfeed "on". The difference in volume is quite audible with the RME.

I like to listen to crossfeed and never noticed a degration in SQ, it takes some time to get used to it but once you are it's hard to go back. It's just weird if certain instruments appear to be sitting on your shoulder.

I also like the original headphone sound though.

Crossfeed is not only a matter of taste, it's also a matter of headphone and EQ. With my HD650 I'm fine with level 2 or 3.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Thank you all for your advice.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

@Happy_amateur

I have one more question.
When you say :
Auto ref level will automatically go from lo- to hi-power when you crank up the volume. It works almost linear and the relais are clicking, but all in all its a pretty genius system.

Do wee agree that the Hi-Poweer setting is on OFF ?

Happy_amateur wrote:

@FH1504: All your settings check out in my book. Except, turn crossfeed OFF for now. Get to know your box from this basic state and from there you can start to apply effects and EQ. Apply lightly and not everything at once. This is the best advice I can give as to sort out and apply your settings to your PERSONAL taste. Not everybody here understands that concept "personal taste" like there is some universal law for what to prefere. Although I would lean to agree with mr Kais about crossfeed.

DIM attenuates the sound by -20db.

Auto ref level will automatically go from lo- to hi-power when you crank up the volume. It works almost linear and the relais are clicking, but all in all its a pretty genius system.

Good luck on your purchase. ADI-2 DAC/PRO is great fun and a learning experience in itself. With this level of control, audio is finally "Back to the future" again.

15 (edited by KaiS 2022-03-27 18:57:14)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

FH1504 wrote:

Auto ref level will automatically go from lo- to hi-power when you crank up the volume...

Do wee agree that the Hi-Poweer setting is on OFF ?

When Auto Reference Level is “ON”, it controls headphone out‘s Hi/Lo Power setting (and the Line Out’s reference levels).

Therefore these settings are greyed out in the menu then.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Thank you.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

MstrC-117 wrote:

On other thread you were recommending use of ADI-2´s loudness... makes suspecting that your references may not be entirely... hmmm... natural targeting.

Huh? Loudness functions have their roots in psycho-acoustics and are an established, proven thing. For someone raving on about crossfeed so much, it's pretty weird to then dismiss/question loudness like this.

18 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-03-30 18:05:19)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

eleweit wrote:

Huh? Loudness functions have their roots in psycho-acoustics and are an established, proven thing. For someone raving on about crossfeed so much, it's pretty weird to then dismiss/question loudness like this.


Crossfeed and loudness are two (2) completely separated things.

Crossfeed is headphone listeners Spatial Distortion Removal Tool, mandatory for every real headphone listener, to enable hearing sounds on both ears on headphones.


Loudness roots are in (family living room/apartment/etc. unsuitable loudspeaker environment) "silencer"-loudspeaker listening. Established for those who listen, but although actually can´t do it properly, on loudspeakers. Most proven method would be to NOT USE loudspeakers in such a circumstances at all.


If volume is low, then bass must also be low. That´s the nature and law of audio.

Natural volume and frequency balance is the basic thing and starting point of whole natural audio reproduction thing, which we in this forum are so on. Basic things are those things that must be achieved first before moving to advanced things. If that´s not respected, we can throw our high end equipment directly out of window. And stay talking our AES/PCM/dBu/DSD -crypto language to WC radiator only.



Don´t use loudness, please. If you can´t listen on proper volume, don´t use speakers at all. Use headphones instead.

Including loudness in ADI -series devices is clear brainfart of otherwise german logic-engineering (like having wunderbaum in package). Maybe mr. Carsten would enlighten us, what has been the leading engineering point of including such a mega-amateur -Lo-Fi -feature in such a professional devices like ADI-2 Pro & DAC? Even remote control has direct (accident) acces button to this damned feature, to enable hard studio pro´s mix & master with loudness on...  sad

At least ADI should show this critical fuck-up-possibility -settings state on its display. Like DarkVolume -screen now shows bass/treble -setting values. Its activation, if it has to there, should be in secret service menu behind three passwords, strong identification and personal telephone-final -authorization from mr. MC himself (in office times between 13-14 only).


P.S. ADI-2 users who actually use loudness, should understand themself to donate their Hi-Fi/Pro -licenses to Unicef, for example. Dual-decker total amateurs in pro´s clothes... what an embarrasment.

19 (edited by ning 2022-03-30 18:17:22)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

I don't quite have the same view as MstrC-117.

I sometimes enjoy listening with high volumes. It's the same amazing experience as in concert halls.
But most times, I use fairly low volume, even with headphones --- don't want to feel fatigue, also don't want to impair my hearing too quickly.
In this case, Loudness is a fairly useful feature.
If you always listen at high levels, loudness is not for you. But for many of us, it's essential.

The problem with loudness, however, is track must be applied with ReplayGain. Luckily it's not hard to do so.
Also for some type of music (classical) with high dynamics it doesn't work really well when the music is super quiet.
So you have to adjust the levels independently for those tracks.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Hi

The loudness function is essentail if you hear at low volume.
To normalize I use not repay-gain but EBU R128.

Peter

21 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-03-30 22:47:46)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Nothing wrong at listening low volume. BUT... tweaking audio band extremes when doing so definitely is wrong, and as unprofessional/un-Hi-Fi activity as can be (note: we are on pro forum now). In such a case can´t avoid thinking that an actual amateur, a bare layman, has gained acces to play on high end audio gear...

Loudness is kind of acoustical binocular/magnification glass. On that same logic´s visual version you should use binoculars strapped permanently to your head when going outdoors,  because "doing so I see distant things closer" and "binoculars are established, proven thing".

To hear bass properly, there must be volume. To see objects properly from 100 meters they must be either quite big or go closer looking. Features of human physiology and laws of physics... Sorry boys, but can´t take you confessed "acoustical-binocular" -listeners seriously after these revelations... sad

22 (edited by KaiS 2022-03-31 06:17:39)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

@ MstrC-117

Besides that I don‘t like the language you‘re presenting YOUR opinion:

You are basically wrong in a lot of assumptions, both about Crossfeed AND Loudness functions.
You simply don’t dig deep enough.


Let‘s put it this way - have a look behind the curtain:

There is NO true natural, original, recording of any acoustic event, because no technology exists to “project” the original into your place.

When you listen to a recording you hear the result of a multitude of production steps, the äquivalent of something in-between a photo and a painted picture of the real thing.

There’s no chance you ever get the real thing at home, not on speakers or headphones, not even if you invite the musicians to play at your place - unless you live in a a concert hall, for the proper acoustics.


Crossfeed:

Music recordings are produced to be played on average loudspeakers in normal rooms, but:

Additionally, recording are seriously targeted for headphones these days during music production, and that’s only one fact why Crossfeed doesn’t make much sense:
Crossfeed is already mixed into the music in a much more sophisticated way than what any post-processing might offer.

Even more so - most microphone arrangements and studio effects are incompatible with any crossfeed.
Crossfeed causes loss of important parts of the audio signal, like the ambience from typical coincident (e.g. M/S - Mid/Side) or head related (e.g. ORTF) microphone arrangements.

I could extend this and go into detail far more, but that alone is enough to abandon crossfeed.
Anyway, the negative effect is clearly audible, is changing the intention I did put into my recordings.


No matter, if you like crossfeed, use it, but please don’t advocate it as a step towards an imaginary “natural” result.



Loudness:

Music productions are done at a listening level of 80 dB SPL Average, this is 103 dB SPL Peak, at least when important balancing decisions are made.

This is quite loud, and is MUCH louder that most people enjoy music at.

It’s not possible to fully compensate the changes in reception that happen when you typically listen e.g. 20 dB lower (like I do privately).

But, due to the work of Fletcher and Munson and others, at least the intended frequency balance can mostly be recovered with ADI-2’s Loudness function.
That’s proven science and not devil’s work.
A basic explanation is in the manual.

The function is intended for privat use, not for studio work BTW.
We tried these type of compensation in the studio in the 80s at German National Broadcast, ARD, but it didn’t turn out to be useful.


There’s one consideration to be made:
A lot of speakers and headphones are already partly compensated for lower listening level, have more or less (fixed) loudness compensation built in.
The headphone's “Harman Target“ is such a compensation.

If your transducer already has a V-shaped frequency response you might have no use for the Loudness function.


Personally, I don‘t usually use Loudness for another reason, except a few times when listening very quiet, privatly:
Due to my daily work as audio engineer I‘m very much used to quiet sounds too, I have a quasi “brain built in“ Loudness function.


Now I’m going to evaluate the result of my today’s work ON HEADPHONES, Mysphere 3.2 on ADI-2 Pro, then go to bed - good night!

23 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-03-31 00:28:33)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

KaiS wrote:

@ MstrC-117

Besides that I don‘t like the language you‘re presenting YOUR opinion:

You are basically wrong in a lot of assumptions, both about Crossfeed AND Loudness functions.
You simply don’t dig deep enough.


Let‘s put it this way - have a look behind the curtain:

There is NO true natural, original, recording of any acoustic event, because no technology exist to “project” the original into your place.

When you listen to a recording you hear the result of a multitude of production steps, the äquivalent of something in-between a photo and a painted picture of the real thing.

There’s no chance you ever get the real thing at home, not on speakers or headphones, not even if you invite the musicians to play at your place - unless you live in a a concert hall, for the proper acoustics.

No. It´s question about to hear whole audio band in proper proportions to each other, in given general volume level. It´s not right to hear bass relatively much louder than midrange, what using loudness does. That´s pure form of distortion. If we are talking about Hi-Fi / naturality -wise, of course.   


KaiS wrote:

Crossfade:

Music recordings are produced to be played on average loudspeakers in normal rooms, but:

Additionally, recording are seriously targeted for headphones these days during music production, and that’s only one fact why Crossfade doesn’t make much sense:
Crossfade is already mixed into the music in a much more sophisticated way than what any post-processing might offer.

Even more so - most microphone arrangements and studio effects are incompatible with any crossfeed.
Crossfeed causes loss of important parts of the audio signal, like the ambience from typical coincident (e.g. M/S - Mid/Side) or head related (e.g. ORTF) microphone arrangement.

I could extend this and go into detail far more, but that alone is enough to abandon crossfade.
Anyway, the negative effect is clearly audible, is changing the intention I did put into my recordings.


No matter, if you like crossfade, use it, but please don’t advocate it as a step towards an imaginary “natural” result.


Crossfade may be, crossfeed definitely is not (except rare special recordings). A recording can´t be crossfed properly in production if it´s ever intended to be used for loudspeakers. Please clarify yourself what it does to signal... 

Crossfeed may not suit optimally for certain phases in recording workflow, that I can admit. But listening the actual finished end product, which I´m writing about here, it suits 100%.


Hope you don´t mix crossfade and crossfeed in your productions like you do here... may yield weird results... could also explain your bad experiences about crossfeed...

KaiS wrote:

Loudness:

Music productions are done at a listening level of 80 dB SPL Average, at
least when important balancing decisions are made.

This is quite loud, and is MUCH louder that most people enjoy music at.

It’s not possible to fully compensate the changes in reception that happen when you typically listen e.g. 20 dB lower (like I do privately).

But, due to the work of Fletcher and Munson and others, at least the intended frequency balance can mostly be recovered with ADI-2’s Loudness function.
That’s proven science and not devil’s work.
A basic explanation is in the manual.

The function is intended for privat use, not for studio work BTW.
We tried these type of compensation in the studio in the 80s at German National Broadcast, ARD, but it didn’t turn out to be useful.

Where does this 80 dB SPL come from? From my knowledge music productions do not have clear standards for production volumes at all. They are made on whatever SPL/deafness-level Pro Tools -artist etc. DJ in charge has.


Lot of excuses could be made for justifying "acoustical-binocular" -listening. Depends on listeners Lo-Fi -tier, attitude and knowledge. Some listeners may use wunderbaums and even dig their nose during listening, because "that feels good" also.

Again, it´s question about to hear whole audio band in proper proportions to each other.  Using loudness to distorting that balance/proportions is like using ladies ass narrowing mirror or walking outdoors binoculars on head (visual versions of loudness).   

KaiS wrote:

There’s one consideration to be made:
A lot of speakers and headphones are already partly compensated for lower listening level, have more or less (fixed) loudness compensation built in.
The headphone's “Harman Target“ is such a compensation.

If your transducer already has a V-shaped frequency response you might have no use for the Loudness function.


Personally, I don‘t usually use Loudness for another reason, except a few times when listening very quiet, privatly:
Due to my daily work as audio engineer I‘m very much used to quiet sounds too, I have a quasi “brain built in“ Loudness function.

Bad headphones/loudspeakers are subject of their own, acoustical responses must be as flat as possible.

Harman Target -curve is nothing else but "most pleasing" -election winner of bunch of amateurs. It´s already changed several times. Real headphone listeners don´t use Harman curves for their phones for sure.

24

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

MstrC-117 wrote:

No. It´s question about to hear whole audio band in proper proportions to each other, in given general volume level. It´s not right to hear bass relatively much louder than midrange, what using loudness does..

Not at all. Fact is that at lower volumes the bass (and treble for mid to high aged persons) simply vanishes, they are gone and not audible anymore. That is exactly why Loudness for HiFi (!) was invented decades ago. Raising bass and treble parts does make the sound linear, or maybe better said 'balanced' again for the human ear.

Nobody said it works perfectly, but it does its job good enough to be the number one and most loved feature in the ADI. As such your rant comes over like trolling.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

I like eggs, any form of of eggs cooked as long as it is not an bad egg.

On vacations overseas, at some hotels, they offer boiled eggs at breakfast, some boiled for 3 mins, some 5, also pan fried eggs, sunny side up, both sides fried, you name it.

In Portugal, it is not allowed to serve eggs not completely cooked, you still can ask for an egg with running yolk, but the cook will not take any responsibility if something goes wrong after you ate it.

Loudness, EQ and B/T are function(s), use it when needed, if you do not like it, disable it.

It is about the choice, available choice, to compensate individuals, could be the music, could be the amp type, could be the speaker type, could be the room acoustics and human ears as well. Vinyl and CD or a radio broadcast and streaming is a fixed thing from production, it cannot be change after it was produced, though you can blame the producer, the function(s) at a piece of equipment allows you to alter something according to someone's need. There is no fixed rule for such adjustment, it is personal taste.

People can walk outside when raining without a raincoat or umbrella, human skin is waterproof, and it doesn't hurt others, right?

Eat raw or or cooked, seasoning it with pepper, salt, sugar, spices or do nothing is a choice, to each his own, period.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

MC wrote:
MstrC-117 wrote:

No. It´s question about to hear whole audio band in proper proportions to each other, in given general volume level. It´s not right to hear bass relatively much louder than midrange, what using loudness does..

Not at all. Fact is that at lower volumes the bass (and treble for mid to high aged persons) simply vanishes, they are gone and not audible anymore. That is exactly why Loudness for HiFi (!) was invented decades ago. Raising bass and treble parts does make the sound linear, or maybe better said 'balanced' again for the human ear.

Nobody said it works perfectly, but it does its job good enough to be the number one and most loved feature in the ADI. As such your rant comes over like trolling.

Good Morning, MC, you stand up so early or you are in Thailand?

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

27 (edited by KaiS 2022-04-02 12:13:22)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

@ MstrC-117

I give you first hand information from a highly skilled and knowledgeable studio owner, audio engineer and producer - me.

Not a DJ or artist doing more or less advanced homerecording.
Decades of personal experience, no internet hearsay.


Hope you will stop to ignore and neglect this information and stop repeating your same, wrong points over and over again.
Start to listen, please.


You asked, and so I just further explain one point, even for those reading along.

How is superior studio quality crossfeed for headphones already integrated into commercial recordings?


Headphones playback has been taken into consideration when recording and mixing for a long time.
Since the 70s a lot of developments in recording technology are based on head related principles.
Engineer do compatibility checks for headphones playback during production.


It starts with main microphones selection and placements like:

The fully head related ORTF microphones arrangement, that uses human’s ears distance for the main stereo mic pair, works angle-correct on headphones.

Same for the OSS mic. It uses a special head sized disc between a stereo pair of mic’s, much like a dummyhead recording, but without it’s downside of strange coloration.

These are fully compatible to headphones, have a natural crossfeed per design.

Decca tree, widely used for classical recordings, is a wider spaced stereo pair of mic’s, but has an additional center “mono“ mic that‘s feed to both ears = full natural acoustical crossfeed that does NOT compromise the signal quality like later DSP processing.


There are numerous other main mic placements like NOS or DIN, non of which separates left/right more than the human auditorial system.
All tend to already narrow the stereo base at lower frequencies, comparable to the human ears.


Additionally to the main mic, the engineer places spot mic’s (to feature certain instruments).
Their signal doesn’t go just full left or right, but is panned, “crossfeed” into the stereo positions that are already projected and defined by the, see above, head related main mic’s.
As these spot mic’s are (opposed to the main mic’s) fully phase-coherent, they would be unnaturally boosted up to 6 dB by later crossfeed.


Room mic’s and/or additional electronic reverb is added, to capture the real ambience and/or enhance or create an appropriate room definition and soundfield.
These are very vulnerable for later stereo signal manipulation like post-crossfeed, as they contain a lot of left/right antiphase signal that is canceled out by crossfeed.
Crossfeed indeed tends to knock those off the table, although they are an important part of the artistic decisions.
Same, BTW, applies to the ambience information from the main mic’s.


Conclusion:
ADI-2’s (and other’s) Crossfeed Function narrows the stereo field in a way NOT intended by the production team, selectively reduces certain signals, boosts others.

This is the opposite of “natural” by your own definition of reproducing the recorded signal as faithful as possible.


DSP based crossfeed on a readily mixed stereo signal is a sound effect, you might like it or not, but that’s all about it, nothing more.



If you now find some typos, you can keep them and I won’t pay you for lecturing my postings. smile

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

^ pretty asweome & informative post, that.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

KaiS wrote:

How is superior studio quality crossfeed for headphones already integrated into commercial recordings?


Headphones playback has been taken into consideration when recording and mixing for a long time.
Since the 70s a lot of developments in recording technology are based on head related principles.
Engineer do compatibility checks for headphones playback during production.


Dear highly skilled and knowledgeable studio owner, audio engineer and producer. Despite your apparent knowledge of microphone techniques, you don´t seem to understand the actual core problem here.   
How recording can be "optimized" simultaneously for loudspeaker and headphone playback, when loudspeakers have acoustical channel separation only head-shadowing-effect -much (very little) and headphones have it skull-splitted-to-half -much (infinite separation/soundproof between ears)?

Those "natural crossfeed" including mic-techniques you describe, are used mostly in weird and rare áuteur-music-productions. They may benefit crossfeed less than typical 2ch -material, but as a penalty shot their performance in speaker playback is somewhat compromised. You are some kind of árt déco / "alternative" music -producer?


Your earlier bragged comparations of (probably just not enough) crossfed headphone playback and your 30k€ speaker system is also pretty ridiculous to begin with, like comparing Volkswagen Golf vs. Leopard 2 off-road abilities. Crossfeed should be compared against the same headphones, just without crossfeed. In this threads case 300€ Sennheiser HD 600, ADI-2´s Crossfeed OFF / Crossfeed 5.

30 (edited by KaiS 2022-04-02 20:49:32)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Headphones have a very high (not infinite) left / right channel separation.
But music recordings have not!

Just the opposite:
The vocalist usually is placed in the center (=100 % “crossfeed”), instruments are arranged in the space around, but rarely placed hard left or right, ambience is spread across the entire soundstage.
This is common for all styles of music.


So on the whole you are talking about a problem not existent.

Which for the rest of it wouldn’t be a big deal if you would not insist that using crossfeed is “...mandatory for every real headphone listener“.


To put it simple:
Music recordings are optimized for playback on loudspeakers AND headphones, because producers know that headphones play a very significant role in consuming music.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Well, thank you for all this information.
I believe it is time to end the conversation that drifts away from my initial question.

32 (edited by KaiS 2022-04-02 21:06:50)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Sure, now you know more than you ever wanted about crossfeed smile

Anymore questions?

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

KaiS wrote:

Headphones have a very high (not infinite) left / right channel separation.
But music recordings have not!

Just the opposite:
The vocalist usually is placed in the center (=100 % “crossfeed”), instruments are arranged in the space around, but rarely placed hard left or right, ambience is spread across the entire soundstage.
This is common for all styles of music.


So on the whole you are talking about a problem not existent.

Which for the rest of it wouldn’t be a big deal if you would not insist that using crossfeed is “...mandatory for every real headphone listener“.


To put it simple:
Music recordings are optimized for playback on loudspeakers AND headphones, because producers know that headphones play a very significant role in consuming music.

RECORDING CAN´T BE DONE TO BE OPTIMAL SAME TIME FOR HEADPHONES AND LOUDSPEAKERS. You don´t seem to undestand, or are pretending not to understand, loudspeakers and headphones vastly differing acousto-physical decoupling mechanisms. Or maybe your understanding of concepts "natural", "spatially correct" and "right sounding" is just... too distort... eeh... "personal".

Commercial emphasis on vast majority of recordings has been on loudspeakers. Your headphone-stereo friendly stereo-mic -recordings are in real world rare, commercially available from weird boutique-channels only. Maybe you sell this kind of marginal stuff yourself? From your garage maybe? If one himself is deep enough in the marginal, doesn´t necessarily realize how things actually are in general, outside that esoteric -bubble.
And when we exit from stereo -world, into realm of downmixed multichannel (TV, movie, game) sound on headphones, already high need of proper crossfeed solution blows straight out of the roof.

34 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-04-02 22:43:30)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

For normal serious headphone listener, with normal varied content and with normal understanding of which is considered natural audio reproduction, crossfeed IS just mandatory accessory. Of course as in all new things, first reaction may be denial. But... give it a little bit time to show its potential... After couple of days intensive crossfeed test listenings mind changes. And won´t abandon it ever again. Key thing is put it in enough. In ADI-2 + Senn HD 600, enough is setting 5.


FH1504 wrote:

Well, thank you for all this information.
I believe it is time to end the conversation that drifts away from my initial question.


KaiS´s crossfeed "information" is just wrong. Fake-information, as such in nowadays is called.

Put your ADI´s crossfeed to setting 5 and give it one week of serious test run with varied content. Varied content means everything between acoustical 50´s afro-indian lute/harp music (a´la KaiS) to Rammstein, and all between + video & game audio.

After that, come here to tell, what you think.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

I can tell you right now. Crossfeed at 5 = best way to cramp any soundstage. If you say its a matter of taste I totally and 100% agree with you. If you say everybody must use high crossfeed settings to get the "right" sound, you dont even want to know what I mean. IMHO youre telling everybody to get the wrong sound, but thats just me. One more thing. Whitout taking any away from its founders, I think, RME forum is more for tech support and such. Not really a debate fora. Maybe you could take this noise elsewhere. Given the intensity of your argumentaion, someone professional perhaps!?

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

With RME, MADIface and Digiface everyone can easily find out whats true and whats fake information. Not only by listening, also by measurement. Switch function to Vector Audio Scope or Totalyser. Down at the bottom, over the RME sign is the field Correlation. A signal only on one side, left or right channel, would be correlation = 0. A central signal, equal on both sides, would be correlation = +1.

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME_Totalyser.jpg 

Now everyone can find out, how seperated left  <> right his music is.

I did. The screenshot above is from Mercy by Dave Douglas, from his new recording Secular Psalms, released April 1, 2022 https://davedouglas.bandcamp.com/album/secular-psalms  (no joke). I did with other takes, a lot of other Jazz. Nearly the whole time correlation is between 0.7 and 0.95. I tried crossfeed several times. For me and my music the disadvantages of using crossfeed clearly outweigh, therefore absolutely not mandatory.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

37 (edited by ramses 2022-04-03 13:04:29)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

As nice as the idea of crossfeed may be in principle. I also took the challenge/effort (again, after long time) to find out whether crossfeed enriches the sound over headphones for me or not.

The first thing that bothers me is that the sound image is suddenly no longer coherent. Something seems to be out of balance. I can't describe it at the moment better than saying, I was missing something in the treble range.

Then I also had to realize that it depends on the audio material whether crossfeed can be used at all at level 5 and to sound still reasonably/coherent. Some things only sounded better again when crossfeed was turned down to level 2.

My conclusion: it did not convince me. Also not the suggested approach to listen to it on level 5 for a week.
Ears get used to sound quickly, which is why mastering engineers change audio material more often or take breaks to listen to something with fresh ears. In this respect, I think it's a completely wrong recommendation to "force" yourself to listen to it for a week in order to like it. Listen with fresh ears and either you like it or not.

But everybody is free to use the features as he want, I only describe my discoveries / taste, I have no intention to tell other people whether or how they ought to use crossfeed.

@Happy_amateur: thank you for your remark, I would also find it much more relaxed if such discussions in the forum would be led in a more cultivated respectful tone. This has always been something the RME forum could be proud of and where it was pleasantly different from the usual forum landscape on internet.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

ramses wrote:

As nice as the idea of crossfeed may be in principle. I also took the challenge/effort (again, after long time) to find out whether crossfeed enriches the sound over headphones for me or not.

The first thing that bothers me is that the sound image is suddenly no longer coherent. Something seems to be out of balance. I can't describe it at the moment better than saying, I was missing something in the treble range.

Then I also had to realize that it depends on the audio material whether crossfeed can be used at all at level 5 and to sound still reasonably/coherent. Some things only sounded better again when crossfeed was turned down to level 2.

My conclusion: it did not convince me. Also not the suggested approach to listen to it on level 5 for a week.
Ears get used to sound quickly, which is why mastering engineers change audio material more often or take breaks to listen to something with fresh ears. In this respect, I think it's a completely wrong recommendation to "force" yourself to listen to it for a week in order to like it. Listen with fresh ears and either you like it or not.

But everybody is free to use the features as he want, I only describe my discoveries / taste, I have no intention to tell other people whether or how they ought to use crossfeed.

@Happy_amateur: thank you for your remark, I would also find it much more relaxed if such discussions in the forum would be led in a more cultivated respectful tone. This has always been something the RME forum could be proud of and where it was pleasantly different from the usual forum landscape on internet.

Hello Ramses, I did try the Crossfeed too, cannot say it works or not for me, different headphone pads can change something, I believe our skull also brings and plays something into crossfeed, especially on-ears, I seldom use IEMs, cannot say IEM put more crossfeed to ear canal and the bone.

I think what we play from our stereo system, be it through headphone or speakers, the source is a recording, the recordings are from/picked up by microphone(s), even we are at a live concert, microphones and speakers are in place to reproduce the sound to the hall, unless we hear someone sings without any equipment, but his/her own voice, for eg. Klapa Šušur at the Vestibul of Diocletian's Palace, Split, Croatia.

@Happy_amateur: Agree .....!

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Johannes AU wrote:

... the recordings are from/picked up by microphone(s), even we are at a live concert, microphones and speakers are in place to reproduce the sound to the hall, unless we hear someone sings without any equipment, but his/her own voice, for eg. Klapa Šušur at the Vestibul of Diocletian's Palace, Split,....!

Or you visit a classical concert in a dedicated concert hall.

Indoor live Classical is without amplification through microphones or speakers in general, purely acoustic.

Even if you‘re not into this music style, I suggest to audition such an event at least once in your lifetime.
Listening to a live Symphonic Orchestra can be an overwhelming experience.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

KaiS wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

... the recordings are from/picked up by microphone(s), even we are at a live concert, microphones and speakers are in place to reproduce the sound to the hall, unless we hear someone sings without any equipment, but his/her own voice, for eg. Klapa Šušur at the Vestibul of Diocletian's Palace, Split,....!

Or you visit a classical concert in a dedicated concert hall.

Indoor live Classical is without amplification through microphones or speakers in general, purely acoustic.

Even if you‘re not into this music style, I suggest to audition such an event at least once in your lifetime.
Listening to a live Symphonic Orchestra can be an overwhelming experience.


Did experience something live, but not at a concert hall, not a very renowned Orchestra, it is at the Hong Kong Airport, kids playing music, the bass of the Basoon impressed me very much.

It was officially recorded by the team and at youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S6LERvJ0Do

There is another one, by the Polytechnic University, at the campus, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC87EAu1X2o unfortunately at November 2019, it turns into a war zone by the police.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

41 (edited by MstrC-117 2022-04-03 19:23:50)

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Couple additional remarks regarding crossfeed


1) If a recording is meant to be working with loudspeakers, crossfeed improves it for headphone listening. Thats the acousto-physical fact. You may not like the results, but bare fact remains. Period.

2) Recording which is not meant to work with loudspeakers, won´t work with crossfeed. Hence testing crossfeed with headphones designed, most rare, esoteric & weirdest stereo-pair -jazz -recordings gives totally distorted picture of its capabilities.

3) Crossfeeds purpose is to sound right. Sounding right does not always mean  sounding pleasing/good. Proper crossfeed reveals mercilessly what an garbage some recordings are. Removing ping-pong -headphone stereo effects, to which listener is fully accustomed, may first seem soundstage shrinking/uncoherence. Patience... mind needs to recalibrate into new right sound. Same shock as a baby (or later) you were weaned from dummy... 
Adjusting crossfeed for individual recordings is same as adjusting bass, midrange and treble i.e. EQ in same situation: utter please-me-don´t-tease-me -Lo-Fi-pleasing behavior. Be a man, accept the truth and deal with it (skip next piece). Real men do not need constant pleasing/ear licking/dummy in their listening!

4) If one has listened headphones tens of years in soundproof-feed -mode, it would be unreasonable to expect change to happen snap-like-that -manner. Hence longer testing period. One week should be realistic rehabilitation schedule for even more exposed headphone abusers to get their shit together.

5) Everyone in this forum has the same ADI-2 -device and crossfeed. Hence this is perfect place to discuss crossfeed, among other RME-things!

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

If owner(s) of the Adi-2 Dac or Adi-2 Pro already read the manual, they knew it precisely.

https://i.ibb.co/vZsr2fP/Screenshot-2022-04-04-at-02-51-25.png

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

I used crossfeed 5 for my HD800 for quite a while and really liked how it changed the presentation. But nowadays I've found a great middle-ground with crossfeed 2; it still retains great imaging but still makes it so any hard-panned sound isn't weird to my ear, after going more into speakers and getting used to the more natural presentation.

Really love having the option, and since I can just toggle it on and off from my sofa via the remote, it's easy to quickly test a song if it sounds better or worse for me with crossfeed on or off.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Well, this conversation has definitely really drift far away from my initial questioning...

For the sake of the forum, I suggest that we close this conversation and for those who would like to debate about crossfeed, they can start a new one on the subject.

Re: Finalizing my headphone setup - Last questions

Once again, thank you all for your explanations.