51 (edited by ramses 2022-05-25 13:26:48)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

KaiS wrote:
ramses wrote:

> RME certainly found: if they are willing to pay, why not to take their money smile [EDIT]

In that area you will find good, but also poorly designed devices without all required technical tests, because in this market segment you can make a lot of money. I think it is good if RME offers well-designed, solid devices with all the necessary technical tests and quality seals for customers who regard such PSUs as important.

That’s what I said further on.
If you quote me please don’t ignore the smile

Sorry was focused on the sentence when doing copy/paste, added it now smile

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

52 (edited by KaiS 2022-05-25 13:43:13)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Happy_amateur wrote:

I want full and dedicated x-over functionality for a true 2.2 setup. No headphone out to monitor or other hacks. Four separate TRS or XLR on the rear panel, straight to speakers.

The separate outputs are already announced, 1/2 on XLR, 3/4 on TRS, both balanced.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Schleichhörnchen wrote:

Perhaps we will see other benefits like a higher output of the headamps. RME didn't talk about it, but this would be something I could understand and is transferable into a marketing claim. RME should have a look at Cyrus with their PSU/Amp Combos. This is clever marketing without too obvious BS and a fitting design across the line.

And don't forget, Audiophiles hear the things we didn't while we recorded it.

ning wrote:

but i've never heard a linear power supply has tube that needs warming first...

Because there aren't any tubes in it. That's why I chose it. I could have mention the crystals to synchronize the power flow with the lei lines.

Benchmark too has a nice lineup with their HPA4 and AHB. High SNR amps from RME could be a killer..

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

KaiS wrote:
Happy_amateur wrote:

I want full and dedicated x-over functionality for a true 2.2 setup. No headphone out to monitor or other hacks. Four separate TRS or XLR on the rear panel, straight to speakers.

The separate outputs are already announced, 1/2 on XLR, 3/4 on TRS, both balanced.

A great start. Remains to be seen how the functionality comes out. Lots of sub/monitor combos have their own x-overs and that would work, but to have full control from ADI would be really, really cool.

BTW, ordered an ADI-2 pro, so im in perfect suspense here big_smile I just love these boxes <3

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

I forgot one thing. It would be nice to use the power supply for a Babyface & ADI-2 at the same time.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Omg @MC!

The most important request - pleeeaasssee bring back the classic blue RME colour ! :-)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

I don't know which part of the device needs how much power. It would be nice to disable parts I don't use very often like the headphone output, if this brings down the energy consumption considerably. A better energy management would be a nice update.

Working from home office since the start of the pandemic the ADI-2 often runs for 12 hours a day and bringing down the amount of heat it radiates into the room would be welcome in the summer.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

I saw the two prototypes of the new ADI-2/4 at the High End 2022.
This new device would be the opportunity to use a larger chassis and not just increase the depth.
By doing so there would be more space at the front panel for a larger display and additional buttons or encoder.
This could help to greatly improve the usability but also heat dissipation.
At the back you could have more connectors and get rid of the Sub-D adapter.
Besides the features requests above additional features could be:
1. Add WiFi to enable app support and control the ADI-2 remotely
2. Additional line level inputs relay controlled to route analog sources directly the outputs.
3. I could even envision a streaming option to further reduce my HiFi stack :-)

The new linear PSU can be also used with the other ADI-2 and will be according to RME „expensive“.
I guess the new Pro will be equipped with the new top AKM A/D and DAC chips :-)

ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

59 (edited by rja4000 2022-05-30 06:46:32)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

OK, then my own whishlist :-)

Totalmix

More ranges for ADC and DAC could also be useful for me (but not for everyone, I guess).
Say, 0, 4, 9, 13, 19, 24, 28dBu.
The 28dBu output is already there in the ADI-2 Pro fs R, if you use the phone balanced out.
On the input, it would allow using some mic preamps to their full capacity.

A choice between impedances could also help with some tricky cases: Normal and High (>100k) for the input (to use the device for instruments... or as a voltmeter/oscilloscope), Normal and Low (<30) for the output (to drive low impedance device from the output. Or even headphones with current limitation)...

Also, the ability to programmatically interact with the device from a PC .Net app : retrieve or set parameters or measured data, backup and restore the configuration (if possible in XLM format)... The last point would also be welcomed for pro users that move from one location to another, I guess.

Oh ! Last but not least: give us DUREC as well ;-)

If you don't ask... ;-)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

I was about to upgrade my aging Crookwood system with an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, but then saw this. Is there any idea on price or release date yet? It looks great so will hold off for now.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

At Superbooth RME rep said they have enough chips secured for launch. Apparently production is underway or about to start very soon. Price will be above the current ADI-2, release is aimed for fall.

My guess is that the 2/4 will clock in around 2250.-. Street probably 2k.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Fingers crossed it'll be that soon. Price around there would be fine (you mean US dollars?) I'll hold off on buying the BE, could really do with the extra balanced outs on this new one, to drive my analogue chain and VU meter.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Euros - not idea about dollar price.

I am waiting too. Happy with my BFP but if truly possible to implement a crossover with the 2/4 I'm all in.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Yeah that's good, I know euros and  UK pounds. wink Price is fine if you are right about that, just hoping it'll be released sooner rather than later, am ready for an upgrade (My Crookwood is getting more and more unreliable).

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

With the mile long x-mas wishlist of features these products will probably disapoint some, and cheer others. As Ive just ordered the current PRO, im making some thoughts about the new 2/4.

Buying points:

1. Dedicated x-over functions.

2. Upgrade to the already excellent auto ref volume control(will some of those extra relais do that)

3. Pricing that doesnt compete with a UFX+

4. PSU should have more than one 12v out, pref. 3.

5. Some way to configure 2/4 from a PC

6. Upgraded IEM out. RME could put one above the pentacon connector. The DAC´s IEM out
    sounds a bit anemic compared to driving my Sennheiser ie400´s from phones out.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

The thread "Request: place volume markers in same order as the headphone outputs" brought to my mind, that this indeed is something the new device could improve upon. Just add a multicolour LED above the headphone outputs that indicates the status of it. It could show that a device is connected but not working, like an adapter without a headphone or a broken headphone, that the output is set to zero volume with a connected headphone and most importantly which output is routed to the volume knob when you use that. For this I would flash the LEDs about the corresponding outputs.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

supporting crossover will need changes to the current spectrum analyzer as it is now calculating the post DSP spectrum for a selected stereo output. in a crossover situation half of the spectrum will be empty.

I have crossover implemented in raspberry pi,  transfer DSP-ed data to my ADI-2 (using headphone 3/4 for sub) and already face this situation, and I have to write my own spectrum analyzer...

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

ning wrote:

supporting crossover will need changes to the current spectrum analyzer as it is now calculating the post DSP spectrum for a selected stereo output. in a crossover situation half of the spectrum will be empty.

I have crossover implemented in raspberry pi,  transfer DSP-ed data to my ADI-2 (using headphone 3/4 for sub) and already face this situation, and I have to write my own spectrum analyzer...

Maybe the signals can be combined for the spectrum analyzator. Color coded for differentiation. I dont know whats possible or not.

It does leave the question. What is the purpose of this box that they are going to sell alongside the current DAC/PRO. For a mere routing of internal signals they could have just made a PRO mkII. You got to have enough features to make it into a different product. Im confident I will buy this sooner or later, be it an audiophile crowdpleaser or some other animal.

I will not pay €1000+ for something as obvious as electricity, that amount should have a revelatory experience connected to it.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

69 (edited by ning 2022-06-02 07:42:01)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

> Maybe the signals can be combined for the spectrum analyzator. Color coded for differentiation. I dont know whats possible or not


It is possible. But good result is hard to achieve given the limitation of processing power.
One has to select what to compute very smartly.

I have a working version already running on my Pi.
But it currently only works for my cutoff frequency and I have to make sure no other filters are after the crossover step.
Generalize it would take quite some effort.

to walk away from the problem,
I would just show the pre DSP signal.
And in a lot of cases pre DSP signal actually make sense. If I room EQ 1khz to 5 db lower why showing that in the spectrum—that 5db is to correct room response, right? In audience’s respective he/she’s not hearing that sound pressure 5db lower.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

>  to walk away from the problem,
I would just show the pre DSP signal.
And in a lot of cases pre DSP signal actually make sense. If I room EQ 1khz to 5 db lower why showing that in the spectrum—that 5db is to correct room response, right? In audience’s respective he/she’s not hearing that sound pressure 5db lower.

That is a point big_smile

There is certainly a strict economy to DSP computations, maybe RME, in future products could offload some to a more dedicated screen controller. I dloaded a PEQ plugin, a really nice feature about it was the superimposed spectrum behind the PEQ. Ideas are endless, DSP power not so

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Do we know if it will come with a remote control?

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

72 (edited by ramses 2022-06-02 21:16:27)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Babaluma wrote:

Do we know if it will come with a remote control?

No, probably with a sushi set, 3 kilos of rice and and audiophile WLAN cable at the 1st of April wink

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Don't really understand the humour. Yes or no would have sufficed. The remote will be important for me as I sit 2 1/2 meters back from the rack and monitor in my mastering studio. If it's not gonna have one, then I will buy the ADI-20Pro FS R BE tomorrow.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

74 (edited by ning 2022-06-05 16:04:14)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Babaluma wrote:

Don't really understand the humour. Yes or no would have sufficed. The remote will be important for me as I sit 2 1/2 meters back from the rack and monitor in my mastering studio. If it's not gonna have one, then I will buy the ADI-20Pro FS R BE tomorrow.

based on the video it surely has a remote. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdMFILHfpc at 0:58. notice the receiver hole between the B and T on the right.


Well I am seriously considering selling my FS R BE and purchasing the 2/4 when available, as long as the latter has Linkwitz-Riley (it would be stupid for RME not to implement it, given it has rear 3/4 output and additional dsp power). Iemme know if you want mine:)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

NoisyNarrowBandDevice wrote:

At Superbooth RME rep said they have enough chips secured for launch. Apparently production is underway or about to start very soon. Price will be above the current ADI-2, release is aimed for fall.

My guess is that the 2/4 will clock in around 2250.-. Street probably 2k.

Did they say which DAC chips in particular?

ESS or AKM?

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

sberry2018 wrote:

ESS or AKM?

I've never seen it in person but ESS is a reasonable guess.  it can meet the higher spec they said in video,  and has better availability.

77 (edited by Curt962 2022-06-05 17:50:41)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Babaluma wrote:

Don't really understand the humour. Yes or no would have sufficed. The remote will be important for me as I sit 2 1/2 meters back from the rack and monitor in my mastering studio. If it's not gonna have one, then I will buy the ADI-20Pro FS R BE tomorrow.

Baba,

As the Remote has been a very useful accessory for so many users, I feel it quite likely that a new RME would include that.   

On Sushi Sets?   I Did "get it" 

wink

A bit of Comic Relief in a fun way.  I only wonder if the 3kgs of Rice is Organic, Sustainably Harvested, Fair-Trade, and Non-GMO!

(But not really...  big_smile )

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

ning wrote:
sberry2018 wrote:

ESS or AKM?

I've never seen it in person but ESS is a reasonable guess.  it can meet the higher spec they said in video,  and has better availability.

Guy at Superbooth hinted at AKM but wouldn't answer when asked directly.

79 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-06 09:55:19)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

NoisyNarrowBandDevice wrote:
ning wrote:
sberry2018 wrote:

ESS or AKM?

I've never seen it in person but ESS is a reasonable guess.  it can meet the higher spec they said in video,  and has better availability.

Guy at Superbooth hinted at AKM but wouldn't answer when asked directly.

I really think it doesn’t matter.
Features and sound are on par for both chip-families.

RME even took the extra mile to add missing DAC filters and adapt the gain headroom for the ESS in ADI-2 DAC.


People tend to have a fixation on the spec figures (often without knowing what they stand for), but in real world application a few dB more or less here and there have zero influence on the sound - in the extreme high quality range that is reached.

E.g, who is aware that doubling the power is just 3 dB louder (but doubling the temperature for the speaker’s / headphone’s driver temperature, which can fry it)?


Practically other features than chip specs make a night and day difference - in sound - compared to most of the myriads of DAC’s out there.


Just one example what makes the ADI-2 family unique.

I couldn’t live without the easy to use EQ anymore:
It changes great headphones with little flaws in tonality into simply - great headphones.

Other solutions exist for EQ, but they aren’t universally usable, limited to a single source, not available in certain configurations, etc.

This is where the rubber meets the road.


The new hardware opens the field to extend the possibilities where the current version has reached it’s limit.

80

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

The ADI-2/4 Pro SE uses the third entry (red LED) of the included MRC. AD is ES9822Pro, DA is 2*ES9038Q2M. As KaiS explained there are other things that make the difference in real world applications. For example we improved the existing hardware reference levels in two ways: full coverage and one step more (+1, +7, +13, +19, +24 dBu). And made sure that the lower ref levels reach the max in SNR by attenuating at the output (including the self noise of the output opamps).

That gives better results in real world usage than implementing one (two) overpriced ES9038Pro. Which wouldn't fit in here for various other reasons anyway.

Same for the headphone output. Less THD plus less self noise made it possible to add a third power output setting called IEM (max +1 dBu). Should be self-explanatory.

The new ref levels are found everywhere - headphone out is now +19 dBu for high power and +7 dBu for low power. Since the unit has 2.5 dB digital and analog headroom the former +22 dBu is not needed, you can easily reach those scary levels by just upping the volume control.

While working on this new unit we also have ideas that might be ported back to the existing units. For example when trying to minimize power consumption. This might come in a later firmware update.

The biggest difference between the ADI-2 Pro and 2/4 Pro was not properly communicated on these 'pre shows'. As the name indicates the 2/4 has 2 balanced inputs and 4 balanced outputs. Other than the original Pro it can do balanced phones output on DAC 3/4, while DAC 1/2 still feeds the rear XLRs with whatever signal. This removes several limitations and even simplifies operation. To not lose performance (check the description of the Advanced Balanced Mode in the manual) we now use a True Balanced Mode, where the balanced configuration is reached by 3 double relays that change the balanced (or differential) connections between DAC output and the 4 headphone amp inputs so that unbalanced stereo turns into balanced stereo. No phase shift circuit or other electronics are added to the signal path for this.

The additional Pentaconn socket (4.4 mm) is balanced only and switches the phones out to balanced automatically when inserted. In this state it is still possible to use the front TRS and grab the same high quality signal (balanced with up to +28 dBu) as line signal (while you could plug in unbalanced headphones it doesn't make any sense as the TRS signal then is not stereo but out-of-phase mono).

The TRS on the rear can be switched from source DAC 1/2 (default) to source DAC 3/4 (another relay). This was requested from mastering studios where the ADI is used to add an analog insert for external FX. The phones still work (even balanced), but volume control is the same then (obviously), except for the ref levels that are independent.

A Trigger Output makes it possible to connect any device with trigger input and switch on/off all devices with the ADI's remote simultaneously (power amps...).

There is more to say about the 2/4 Pro SE. Stay tuned.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

>  And made sure that the lower ref levels reach the max in SNR by attenuating at the output (including the self noise of the output opamps).

Do you mean the lower levels are done passively? what about the HP out +1 output? also passively?

> AD is ES9822Pro, DA is 2*ES9038Q2M.

exactly what I guessed. this could make the device a super good measuring device as well.

> full coverage and one step more (+1, +7, +13, +19, +24 dBu).

that's so awesome! I like the +1 level!

> The TRS on the rear can be switched from source DAC 1/2 (default) to source DAC 3/4 (another relay).

even better than we thought about:)

> There is more to say about the 2/4 Pro SE. Stay tuned.

Seems it's time to sell my ADI-2...

82 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-06 10:05:05)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

ning wrote:

what about the HP out +1 output? also passively?

This is, in general, technically not possible while maintaining the specs.

You would end up with an at least one magnitude higher output impedance, which is not desirable.

As proven with ADI-2 DAC‘s IEM output, the power chips exceed the SNR of the DAC far enough, so simply lower gain does the trick.

83 (edited by ning 2022-06-06 10:41:09)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

KaiS wrote:
ning wrote:

what about the HP out +1 output? also passively?

This is, in general, technically not possible while maintaining the specs.

You would end up with an at least one magnitude higher output impedance, which is not desirable.

As proven with ADI-2 DAC‘s IEM output, the power chips exceed the SNR of the DAC far enough, so simply lower gain does the trick.

i don't have the DAC but I guess its iem output has independent power supply, probably done by a linear regulator or high precision op amp.
it also uses a different headphone buffer (1622), whose noise level is much lower than the 1688. So DAC's IEM port is not relavent here.

existing Pro's hp amp's and XLR's noise is higher than the noise of the DAC at lowest level.
that's why at +7dbu the HP outs do not get full DAC SNR (118db vs 120db).
its noise level is only -111dBu.  To reach DAC's IEM output you'll need -121dBu noise level. old DAC's IEM has -118dBu noise.

It's possible to reach that low noise level by 1) more slave buffers in parallel but this solution does not scale. 2) choose the master op amp smartly. so instead of using the first 1688 it can use the 1602 before the 1688. 3) better slave op amps such as 1656, and you get more power as well

of course, better power supply and layout design will be helpful as well.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Thanks for all the info, I guess I will wait for this to drop, it seems just perfect.

@MC any rough ETA, summer, autumn, winter?

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Babaluma wrote:

Thanks for all the info, I guess I will wait for this to drop, it seems just perfect.

@MC any rough ETA, summer, autumn, winter?

end of 2022. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6txgP7xLlQ at 0:30

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Thanks, I want it sooner, haha.

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Babaluma wrote:

Thanks, I want it sooner, haha.

i am not in a hurry though... I still have half a year to sell my ADI-2 smile

88

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

ning wrote:

i don't have the DAC but I guess its iem output has independent power supply, probably done by a linear regulator or high precision op amp.
it also uses a different headphone buffer (1622), whose noise level is much lower than the 1688.

But the penny didn't drop - no 1688 anymore, all 1622.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

ning wrote:
KaiS wrote:
ning wrote:

what about the HP out +1 output? also passively?

This is, in general, technically not possible while maintaining the specs.

You would end up with an at least one magnitude higher output impedance, which is not desirable.
...

... it also uses a different headphone buffer (1622), whose noise level is much lower than the 1688. So DAC's IEM port is not relavent here.

The control OPA of the feedback loop defines the noise, not the power output chip.
Less gain - more negative feedback - can bring the headphone amp’s noise down.

I bet RME will find a solution smile, but passive attenuation won’t be it.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

MC wrote:
ning wrote:

i don't have the DAC but I guess its iem output has independent power supply, probably done by a linear regulator or high precision op amp.
it also uses a different headphone buffer (1622), whose noise level is much lower than the 1688.

But the penny didn't drop - no 1688 anymore, all 1622.

omg... I need to work hard and save more money for this.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

well, well! 1622, 666 or 5429. Are we competing with the imaginary fire ants now. Numbers for DAC and PRO, already f**** beautiful. What can it do that we doesnt have already. Chase for SNR into the sky is useless. We need controll in digital domain. Bigger FPGA, more computing power, filters, plug-ins. 10-band PEQ, room corretion, tube warmifiers, psilocybic stereo expanders. If I wanted the best SNR I would go to audio (p)sience review and check out toppin 90 whatever. I have the DAC, PRO and UCXII. Give me a reason to slush out another 2k!? RME has the edge an all of these guys, get your dick out of your pants, please!

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

92 (edited by ning 2022-06-07 03:54:24)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Happy_amateur wrote:

well, well! 1622, 666 or 5429. Are we competing with the imaginary fire ants now. Numbers for DAC and PRO, already f**** beautiful. What can it do that we doesnt have already. Chase for SNR into the sky is useless. We need controll in digital domain. Bigger FPGA, more computing power, filters, plug-ins. 10-band PEQ, room corretion, tube warmifiers, psilocybic stereo expanders. If I wanted the best SNR I would go to audio (p)sience review and check out toppin 90 whatever. I have the DAC, PRO and UCXII. Give me a reason to slush out another 2k!? RME has the edge an all of these guys, get your dick out of your pants, please!

I tend to disagree. people have different use cases and the unit can make almost everyone happy. the 1622s enable the unit to have super low noise headphone out, which is good news to IEM users. The 9822 ADC has better noise shaping properties, making the unit very useful in audio measurements. Neither is available with the current Pro. RME also needs a product to show case their state of the art technology, similar to the super expensive Apple display, and does not lag too behind in the current hi(sci)-fi market.

The current Pro and DAC's FPGA/DSP chips are powerful enough to do the above things you mentioned (10-band PEQ, room correction with convolution, etc) in low but reasonable frequencies (for instance 96k). It's just they decided not to do it this way.  Bigger FPGA and better DSP surely help but add the cost significantly. Today low powered ARM chip can do it better at much cheap cost, as is shown in my spare project (raspberry pi running 4 channels full ADI-2 DSP pipelines with 20band PEQ at 768khz with 64bits precision). This was not available when the audio world adopts FPGAs 20 years ago. For RME it would be a difficult move, as most of their past tech investments are in FPGA technologies.

Concerning price --- second hand RME products hold their value pretty well. I tend to not to worry too much about it. You can easily sell your DAC and Pro together and get the 2/4. You can't do that with toppin 90.

93 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-07 07:30:39)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

ning wrote:

Bigger FPGA and better DSP surely help but add the cost significantly. Today low powered ARM chip can do it better at much cheap cost, as is shown in my spare project (raspberry pi running 4 channels full ADI-2 DSP pipelines with 20band PEQ at 768khz with 64bits precision).

But can you do this with almost no processing latency?

This is where the DSP / FPGA, vs. a CPU solution, had it’s point ever since.

94 (edited by ramses 2022-06-07 07:54:52)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Happy_amateur wrote:

If I wanted the best SNR I would go to audio (p)sience review and check out toppin 90 whatever.

High SNR is IMHO a weak argument for those products like the mentioned Topping.

The difference in SNR between ADI-2 Pro with/without FS was already regarded as only measurable.

In my setup I am using volume levels in the range of -20 .. -35.
SNR still high enough, but this would definitively be -20 .. -35 dB SNR less on such a Topping, which brings this device quickly down in terms of SNR.

Old and new RME product support 4 (new RME product even 5) reference levels and have autoreflevel.
This can't be beaten by such a Topping.
And SNR alone doesn't deliver better sound, it's already so high, it's inaudible.

So it's more about features like better design (many reflevels) and features like autoreflevel and a lot more.

I see it this way .. besides a little better technical data here and there it's more about the added features in the new product. Speaking about features .. RME products beat the competition, even the 1st/oldest ADI-2 Pro.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

95 (edited by ning 2022-06-07 08:59:27)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

KaiS wrote:
ning wrote:

Bigger FPGA and better DSP surely help but add the cost significantly. Today low powered ARM chip can do it better at much cheap cost, as is shown in my spare project (raspberry pi running 4 channels full ADI-2 DSP pipelines with 20band PEQ at 768khz with 64bits precision).

But can you do this with almost no processing latency?

This is where the DSP / FPGA, vs. a CPU solution, had it’s point ever since.

depending on what you mean by latency.

If you means longer latency, then yes, as my toy project runs as a separate relay device. Even if you integrate it into the system, a realtime ARM chip could still have slightly longer latency than a FPGA and DSP solution (but should be close).

if you mean processing speed, then modern ARMs process the audio *much*, *much* faster than realtime and fpga/dsp chip so in theory can guarantee any hard time limit. CPU code is also much easier to write / maintain than FPGA/DSP code.

Also for many algorithms, long delay is not avoidable. Convolution for instance, will delay the audio to hundreds or even thousands of samples.

btw I'm not saying a fpga is not useful. FPGA can do various tasks such as running the usb interfacing code, and do the internal routing to the ad/da chip. They could co-exist.

96 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-07 10:15:17)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

ning wrote:
KaiS wrote:
ning wrote:

Bigger FPGA and better DSP surely help but add the cost significantly. Today low powered ARM chip can do it better at much cheap cost, as is shown in my spare project (raspberry pi running 4 channels full ADI-2 DSP pipelines with 20band PEQ at 768khz with 64bits precision).

But can you do this with almost no processing latency?

This is where the DSP / FPGA, vs. a CPU solution, had it’s point ever since.

depending on what you mean by latency.

For home use the feed-through or “round trip” latency is of no concern.


But you may not forget, the ADI-2 Pro and ADI-2/4 are aimed at recording studios too.

For recording studio use latency is a major factor that rules out a lot of devices.

A round trip latency input to output, with the computer and DAW in between, above 5 ms, very negatively influences the performance and the timing of an artist who monitors his live performance through the device.

Figures below 5 ms are not easy to achieve, with all the bufferings in between, and the DSP/FPGA processing at least doesn’t add to ASIO and DAW buffer delays.

97 (edited by ning 2022-06-07 12:11:48)

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

We are talking about latency in a few dozen of samples. Surely not in the magnitude of ms.

If you have daw and usb driver and OS in between the latency of having an arm chip processing audio instead of dsp/fpga  chips  in audio interface is completely negligible. also true in a discrete convolution processing case where usually thousands of samples is needed. In this case an ARM chip can certainly outperform a DSP chip at the same price.

The latency in the above post’s context is the direct monitoring latency. You feed aes or analog signals to the unit and how long do they come back in aes/analog out. To match ADI-2 performance ARM may be possible but I have limited knowledge on it. People with more knowledge can share their experiences. in theory (fast processing speed up to ghz, limited cpu pipeline length) it should be possible.

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Please give us 10 bands of EQ! Would be so useful! smile

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

Sorry, if its the wrong thread. Im interrested  to buy the DAC FS. But with this Pro prototype news I am super unshure whether to wait as there will be an DAC SE? follow  shortly after.

Anything known in this direction?

I just dont want to spend 1k€ on a soon end of life product.

100

Re: ADI-2/4 Prototyp

d1m0n wrote:

Sorry, if its the wrong thread. Im interrested  to buy the DAC FS. But with this Pro prototype news I am super unshure whether to wait as there will be an DAC SE? follow  shortly after.

Anything known in this direction?

I just dont want to spend 1k€ on a soon end of life product.

the added features of the Pro 2/4 are not very applicable to the DAC.
the DAC is already using ESS DAC chip and having super low noise IEM output.

The rear 3/4 output, ESS ADC chip, more powerful balanced connection, etc. does not make sense in the DAC version.
ADI-2/4 Pro will have slightly more powerful dsp but that will be used for crossover, also not applicable to the DAC.

Even if there will be a new future DAC version I don't expect RME to fundamentally overhaul it in the same way as the ADI-2/4 Pro to the ADI-2 Pro