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RME User Forum → ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series → De-Emphasis makes speakers sound unclear
I have had two very good passive speakers.
They sounded very good before I bought adi2fs
The adi2fs was out of the box sound. I was literally in schock that even my sanskrit 10th mk2 was better
I played around and found de-emphasis. Turned it off.
Now sound is much more clear….but thin.
I dont wanna play with EQ before I have a good sound.
Any recommendation?
it only depends on your signal (such as CD) is pre-emphasised or not.
some old cds are preemphasised, and you have to turn it on to make the CD sound original.
Otherwise you should turn it off.
RME's default option is auto, and detect whether or not to deemphasis the incoming signals from your cd player.
If you don't want any alternation of signals's Frequency Response in audible range, just turn it off, and only listen to music that is not pre-emphasised.
it only depends on your signal (such as CD) is pre-emphasised or not.
some old cds are preemphasised, and you have to turn it on to make the CD sound original.
Otherwise you should turn it off.RME's default option is auto, and detect whether or not to deemphasis the incoming signals from your cd player.
If you don't want any alternation of signals's Frequency Response in audible range, just turn it off, and only listen to music that is not pre-emphasised.
So the adi2fs detects signal?
But why does it sound worse then?
Emphasized music sound like crap then to me. Some deaf engineers walking around proud of that feature?
I turned it off.
> But why does it sound worse then?
What do you mean by "then", more details please.
I tried De-Emphasis Auto vs Off through montors, there is no difference (as the used audio material has no emphasis).
Turning it on results in the expected Treble reduction.
> But why does it sound worse then?
What do you mean by "then", more details please.
I tried De-Emphasis Auto vs Off through montors, there is no difference (as the used audio material has no emphasis).
Turning it on results in the expected Treble reduction.
Why … why reduce the treble?
I instantly new it was crap right away.
No matter what I listen to it is crap with de-emphasis. This functio puts a veil on the music.
Its obvious on my speakers.
Emphasized music sound like crap then to me. Some deaf engineers walking around proud of that feature?
I turned it off.
It seems you don't know what Pre-/Deemphasis is and how it works. It has nothing to do with (audio) engineers. And it's no longer used these days. No idea why it was turned on, did you buy the unit second-hand?
http://pspatialaudio.com/cd_deemp.htm
Why … why reduce the treble?
I instantly new it was crap right away.
No matter what I listen to it is crap with de-emphasis. This functio puts a veil on the music.
Its obvious on my speakers.
Because Preemphasis means it was raised in CD premastering - it was a kind of digital noise reduction in the early days. A bit like Dolby B/C, if you know what that is... It's only good for signals that were put on CD with preemphasis. Otherwise, there is obviously no use for this...
sophosutm01 wrote:Emphasized music sound like crap then to me. Some deaf engineers walking around proud of that feature?
I turned it off.
It seems you don't know what Pre-/Deemphasis is and how it works. It has nothing to do with (audio) engineers. And it's no longer used these days. No idea why it was turned on, did you buy the unit second-hand?
http://pspatialaudio.com/cd_deemp.htm
sophosutm01 wrote:Why … why reduce the treble?
I instantly new it was crap right away.
No matter what I listen to it is crap with de-emphasis. This functio puts a veil on the music.
Its obvious on my speakers.Because Preemphasis means it was raised in CD premastering - it was a kind of digital noise reduction in the early days. A bit like Dolby B/C, if you know what that is... It's only good for signals that were put on CD with preemphasis. Otherwise, there is obviously no use for this...
I hear this “veil” on new productions also.
Its not only old. Auto mode also do this. I have listened for hours before I found out why this dac was horrible at stock settings.
I hear this “veil” on new productions also.
If you de-emphasize material that was not pre-emphasized, it will sound bad. That's not at all surprising. Emphasis hasn't been used any more since the Eighties... Also, it's not a matter of the production, but of the CD premastering process.
Its not only old. Auto mode also do this. I have listened for hours before I found out why this dac was horrible at stock settings.
a) Auto does not de-emphasize unless a CD player or other SPDIF source explicitly signals the presence of a pre-emphasized signal. I think I have heard of cases where devices incorrectly set that bit. What is your signal source here, a CD player? Or an AV receiver?
b) The ADI does not sound "horrible at stock settings". If deemphasis was set to on, someone must have changed it manually before you received it. If it was in Auto, there is an issue with your source. Please do not base your rant here on a simple lack of knowledge of basics of digital audio technology (even if outdated)... You claimed to "know" something is "crap" without knowing how it works. That's not helpful if you want to understand the issue.
sophosutm01 wrote:I hear this “veil” on new productions also.
If you de-emphasize material that was not pre-emphasized, it will sound bad. That's not at all surprising. Emphasis hasn't been used any more since the Eighties... Also, it's not a matter of the production, but of the CD premastering process.
Its not only old. Auto mode also do this. I have listened for hours before I found out why this dac was horrible at stock settings.
a) Auto does not de-emphasize unless a CD player or other SPDIF source explicitly signals the presence of a pre-emphasized signal. I think I have heard of cases where devices incorrectly set that bit. What is your signal source here, a CD player? Or an AV receiver?
b) The ADI does not sound "horrible at stock settings". If deemphasis was set to on, someone must have changed it manually before you received it. If it was in Auto, there is an issue with your source. Please do not base your rant here on a simple lack of knowledge of basics of digital audio technology (even if outdated)... You claimed to "know" something is "crap" without knowing how it works. That's not helpful if you want to understand the issue.
I bought mine brand new from store.
It sounded like a pc soundcard from early 2000s. Yes to me it did with emphasis, on usb and optical. No matter the flac file I played!
It just add a veil to the music, doesnt matter the production date old new.
I run the new version 0.49.
Maybe I should runback the firmware and try?
If Pre-Emphasis is detected you could easily see that in the Status Overview screen (check manual). There is no such thing on USB, though.
If Pre-Emphasis is detected you could easily see that in the Status Overview screen (check manual). There is no usch thing on USB, though.
Ok I am going to make a test again and see.
Could it be the way flac files are converted/ripped?
Thank you guys for helping me to have e little more indsight.
I feel like a geek with this device. Soo many options
If you rip the disk you get a lossless 1:1 copy of the disk if the destination format is lossless.
No, this has nothing to do with audio files. It only happens with an SPDIF connection. What's the SPDIF source?
If you play from your computer through USB and your de-emph setting is auto, the de-emph feature is not enabled. Turning that to off will not affect the sound in anyway.
FLAC may preserve pre-emph info in the metadata or cue files, but there's no way to transfer such info through USB, according to the UAC spec.
The device is much more sophisticated than a regular DAC, simply because it can do much more than a regular DAC.
The manual is a good read. you should always read the manual to get the background information first.
Here‘s a quote from the ADI-2 DAC manual page 56, that explains it all in detail, I put the most important part in bold.
Page 76 in ADI-2 Pro‘s manual has some graphs too.
31. Technical Background
31.1 Emphasis
In the early times of digital audio, with AD and DA converters of only 14 bit resolution, a technique was used that is also known from radio transmission: pre- and de-emphasis. The audio signal is equalized to have treble boosted before the conversion. When played back an analog treble filter (the term high cut seems a bit strong) is required. Overall the audible noise and distortion caused by the AD and DA conversion was hoped to be reduced this way.
Some older CDs were recorded with Emphasis, and indeed Emphasis is part of the Red Book standard. Listening to them requires a filter on the playback side or their sound will seem too bright. The playback of older digital recordings from tape might also require de-emphasis, and even one of the first DAT recorders used Emphasis constantly.
Fortunately digital to analog converter chips have support for de-emphasis included. The ADI-2 DAC activates the DAC’s de-emphasis automatically when the current source is AES or SPDIF and the Emphasis bit is set in the incoming Channel Status. The State Overview screen can be used to track this state, a WARNING SPDIF EMPHASIS message will be shown.
Why warning? Because when using the ADI-2 DAC as audio interface to record SPDIF into an audio file, the emphasis state is lost. Similarly there exists no mechanism to let the audio playback software control the emphasis state of the ADI-2 DAC during playback of that recorded file. An option De-emphasis On in the channel’s I/O menu allows for a manual activation in such a case.
No, this has nothing to do with audio files.
Well, in this case it has. Ripping a Pre-emphasis equallized CD will result in files with too much treble. But I doubt the OP has those, they are really rare these days.
I have tried usb to synology and pc. This connection was better OFF de-emphasis. It was horrible ON/AUTO.
No matter the source USB or SPDIF. I got old from struggling to find the solution.
I am going to approve what I say here for a very long test session next week.
RME Support wrote:No, this has nothing to do with audio files.
Well, in this case it has. Ripping a Pre-emphasis equallized CD will result in files with too much treble. But I doubt the OP has those, they are really rare these days.
The problem here is a lack of treble, not too much of it... :-)
@ sophosutm01, what's the Synology device mentioned here and how is it connected?
MC wrote:RME Support wrote:No, this has nothing to do with audio files.
Well, in this case it has. Ripping a Pre-emphasis equallized CD will result in files with too much treble. But I doubt the OP has those, they are really rare these days.
The problem here is a lack of treble, not too much of it... :-)
@ sophosutm01, what's the Synology device mentioned here and how is it connected?
It definitly turns off treble for me when its ON/AUTO
USB directly to Synology NAS usb port. Synology support dac.
Or
USB directly to PC same results
What ADI is that exactly? How old is it?
> I run the new version 0.49.
There is no such version. If this is an ADI-2 DAC FS then the current version is 50 (51 on Mac). Can you update to firmware 50 or 51?
Playback is at what sample rate?
Do you see an Emphasis warning in the Status Overview screen?
What ADI is that exactly? How old is it?
> I run the new version 0.49.
There is no such version. If this is an ADI-2 DAC FS then the current version is 50 (51 on Mac). Can you update to firmware 50 or 51?
Playback is at what sample rate?
Do you see an Emphasis warning in the Status Overview screen?
It says 0.49 at startup.
3months old
Edit: As soon as I get home I will update the firmware and see again.
I have only seen warning at 768 Khz. Every other letters is “blue”
Playback: 44 48 96
About two/three weeks ago I updated the firmware. I was also confused it says 0.49.
I followed RME instruction video
@sophosutm01: the version numbers that are displayed when the unit is started are natural numbers >0.
But not something like 0.49 .. please use the numbers that you actually see, otherwise it's a little bit confusing.
From the driver readme: I think you refer to version 49, so you should update the ADI-2 DAC FS to the latest version, see the post from MC above.
05/19/2022: ADI-2 DAC 78/50, ADI-2 Pro 262/115. Bugfix: A preset name consisting only of spaces caused the device to freeze. AutoRef DSD did not work correctly on devices with AK4490. Pro only: ADC set to DSD mode caused a false DC warning on the DAC part. AutoStandby now also includes signal check of the analog inputs.
04/11/2022: ADI-2 DAC 78/49, ADI-2 Pro 262/113. The option Do not load Volume did not always work as expected. Loading the Factory setup now also follows that option. B/T can now be used in both PEQ and as B/T at up to +/-12 dB. Remote Locked now allows to use the volume keys on the remote. Pro only: In Dual EQ mode a graphics refresh was missing in the Bode plot. In Dual Phones mode with AutoRef active, inserting a TRS jack into Phones 1/2 could cause a wrong dBr setting.
It says 0.49 at startup.
No, it says V.49 for Version 49. I checked the DAC again and there is no Emphasis issue with USB or SPDIF.
sophosutm01 wrote:It says 0.49 at startup.
No, it says V.49 for Version 49. I checked the DAC again and there is no Emphasis issue with USB or SPDIF.
Thank you very much.
Only way to check firmware is download the firmware installer?
Yours say V49 also?
@sophosutm01: the version numbers that are displayed when the unit is started are natural numbers >0.
But not something like 0.49 .. please use the numbers that you actually see, otherwise it's a little bit confusing.From the driver readme: I think you refer to version 49, so you should update the ADI-2 DAC FS to the latest version, see the post from MC above.
05/19/2022: ADI-2 DAC 78/50, ADI-2 Pro 262/115. Bugfix: A preset name consisting only of spaces caused the device to freeze. AutoRef DSD did not work correctly on devices with AK4490. Pro only: ADC set to DSD mode caused a false DC warning on the DAC part. AutoStandby now also includes signal check of the analog inputs.
04/11/2022: ADI-2 DAC 78/49, ADI-2 Pro 262/113. The option Do not load Volume did not always work as expected. Loading the Factory setup now also follows that option. B/T can now be used in both PEQ and as B/T at up to +/-12 dB. Remote Locked now allows to use the volume keys on the remote. Pro only: In Dual EQ mode a graphics refresh was missing in the Bode plot. In Dual Phones mode with AutoRef active, inserting a TRS jack into Phones 1/2 could cause a wrong dBr setting.
Ok I will thank you for information:)
sophosutm01 wrote:It says 0.49 at startup.
No, it says V.49 for Version 49. I checked the DAC again and there is no Emphasis issue with USB or SPDIF.
How can I check it too?
I succesfully updated firmware to V 50.
But I am missing the icon right corner where I can change asio/latency.
It use to be included. Hmmmm
The icon represents driver settings. This you will see once the MADIface ASIO driver is installed.
This ASIO driver is required to perform a firmware upgrade as you can read in the manual.
So .. if the firmware upgrade worked, then you also have the ASIO driver installed.
So you should see this icon.
If you do not see the icon in the windows notification field, then it might be hidden and you will see it when clicking to the little triangle there, where you can hide drivers which are not so interesting to see. I usually change settings to see all these icons... These are Windows basics ..
The icon represents driver settings. This you will see once the MADIface ASIO driver is installed.
This ASIO driver is required to perform a firmware upgrade as you can read in the manual.
So .. if the firmware upgrade worked, then you also have the ASIO driver installed.
So you should see this icon.
If you do not see the icon in the windows notification field, then it might be hidden and you will see it when clicking to the little triangle there, where you can hide drivers which are not so interesting to see. I usually change settings to see all these icons... These are Windows basics ..
Ok there is only driver and flash update utility right?
I think this is som windows update issue maybe..
I cant seem to understand it but I will try even though I work in the IT field for 5 years
I still need to “emphasize” this issue!!
I need feedback from people with speakers and not headphones!
Its still noticable on headphones, if you cant hear.
Turn on your speakers!
De-Emphasis or not is clearly audible in both headphones and speakers.
If you are using usb, off is equal to auto.
If you don’t believe off =auto, you can use a audio interface to record a 15khz sine wave and compare their amplitude. If you don’t have a recording device, you can measure the rca output with a multimeter. Use AC voltage. Should be identical.
Turning it on will significantly reduce the analog signal amplitude/voltage.
If off and auto in usb mode are not identical, it’s a bug. If they are, it’s your hearing issue.
I have my ADI-2 Pro on De-Emphasis = Auto ever since, running on a lot of various firmware versions, currently V.113
I‘m using ADI-2 with USB and Optical, even as measurement interface very often.
If there was the slightest deviation from linear frequency response I‘d immediately noticed it.
Just to be sure I just tested again on iOS - USB:
• De-Emphasis “Auto” or “OFF”: no difference
• De-Emphasis “ON”: clearly audible.
@sophosumt01:
It might well be that you have a Windows or other’s software’s problem.
As obviously ADI-2 DAC is not faulty, so you could further investigate on that side.
Meanwhile I suggest to run your ADI-2 DAC “De-Emphasis = OFF” and maybe forget about the problem.
There are so few recordings that needs to be De-Emphasised, you will have a hard time to stumble across one - even if you find one, through USB the automatism wouldn’t work anyway.
Thanks for the responds.
I use to also have the ASIO software that came with drivers. In the notification area. Hmm maybe Windows issue.
But it does not show up after installation of drivers.
Regarding the emphasis:
I am going to make a test next weekend. I dont think this one is windows related as I also have the rme connected to other devices, like NAS(synology)
@KaiS
I think I will turn it off totally. But its just funny that it also happens on new recordings. Thats why I am curious if it has something to do with flac.
@KaiS
I think I will turn it off totally. But its just funny that it also happens on new recordings. Thats why I am curious if it has something to do with flac.
Again, this has nothing to do with flac or other file formats. There is no Emphasis in USB playback, and there is none in audio file formats. It also has nothing to do with speakers or headphones. I still have the impression that you don't really understand what pre-/deemphasis is and how it works. Did you ever read the link I sent you?
USB directly to Synology NAS usb port. Synology support dac.
In that case, there is a chance that the Synology device incorrectly sets the Emphasis bit. Ask the manufacturer.
USB directly to PC same results
No Emphasis in USB audio. And no known bug... You'd need to measure this and provide results...
sophosutm01 wrote:@KaiS
I think I will turn it off totally. But its just funny that it also happens on new recordings. Thats why I am curious if it has something to do with flac.
Again, this has nothing to do with flac or other file formats. There is no Emphasis in USB playback, and there is none in audio file formats. It also has nothing to do with speakers or headphones. I still have the impression that you don't really understand what pre-/deemphasis is and how it works. Did you ever read the link I sent you?
sophosutm01 wrote:USB directly to Synology NAS usb port. Synology support dac.
In that case, there is a chance that the Synology device incorrectly sets the Emphasis bit. Ask the manufacturer.
USB directly to PC same results
No Emphasis in USB audio. And no known bug... You'd need to measure this and provide results...
Good points there thanks!
I will go through my flac libraries and test the same files between the devices…
I could have made it much easier for me and you guys by asking the right question from the start.
What is the disadvantage of setting the de-emphasis setting to OFF - will this downgrade the quality of the sound?
What is the disadvantage of setting the de-emphasis setting to OFF - will this downgrade the quality of the sound?
If you had read the article about Emphasis that I sent you, you'd know the answer.
The only possible change would be if you were to listen to a CD with Preemphasis without Deemphasis. Then you'd have too much treble.
sophosutm01 wrote:What is the disadvantage of setting the de-emphasis setting to OFF - will this downgrade the quality of the sound?
If you had read the article about Emphasis that I sent you, you'd know the answer.
The only possible change would be if you were to listen to a CD with Preemphasis without Deemphasis. Then you'd have too much treble.
Ok. It is very noticable?
RME Support wrote:sophosutm01 wrote:What is the disadvantage of setting the de-emphasis setting to OFF - will this downgrade the quality of the sound?
If you had read the article about Emphasis that I sent you, you'd know the answer.
The only possible change would be if you were to listen to a CD with Preemphasis without Deemphasis. Then you'd have too much treble.Ok. It is very noticable?
Yes, with Pop music, almost 10 dB too much treble in this few cases would be.
Not too noticeable an old Classical recordings, as they often have very low treble anyway
You only find Pre-Emphasis on very, very few CDs, non in streaming.
The chances of finding an audio CD that needs deemphesis is near zero, so off is a perfect setting if auto gives you strange or unwanted result for whatever reason. So off you go, pun intended.
Cheers
The chances of finding an audio CD that needs deemphesis is near zero, so off is a perfect setting if auto gives you strange or unwanted result for whatever reason. So off you go, pun intended.
Cheers
many classical CDs in the 80s are pre-emphasised. i have plenty of them.
some do not even indicate that in either cd format bit or enclosed booklet.
but applying de-emphesis make them sound "right" immediately.
For CDs released after 2000 I've never seen them pre-emphasised.
... many classical CDs in the 80s are pre-emphasised. i have plenty of them.
some do not even indicate that in either cd format bit or enclosed booklet...
These wouldn’t sound correct when listened from a regular CD player’s analog out as originally intended, with no chance to correct this for the normal consumer.
Strange, As Red Book Standard was handled very strict in the early days of CD.
No such in my collection.
Are yours ripped and re-burned on CDR, or later re-issues of some kind, where the transfer lost the Emphasis-Bit?
> These wouldn’t sound correct when listened from a regular CD player’s analog out as originally intended, with no chance to correct this for the normal consumer.
That's right.
> Are yours ripped and re-burned on CDR, or later re-issues of some kind, where the transfer lost the Emphasis-Bit?
It's not. I borrowed it from a local library when I lived in the States years ago. It just sounded very off (too bright).
I later found a remastered copy on the internet and that one sounds correct.
> These wouldn’t sound correct when listened from a regular CD player’s analog out as originally intended, with no chance to correct this for the normal consumer.
That's right.
> Are yours ripped and re-burned on CDR, or later re-issues of some kind, where the transfer lost the Emphasis-Bit?
It's not. I borrowed it from a local library when I lived in the States years ago. It just sounded very off (too bright).
I later found a remastered copy on the internet and that one sounds correct.
I can only imagine that's an error in production (CD premastering). I also still have a good number of classical CDs from the Eighties here, let's see how many I can find with Emphasis.
> I can only imagine that's an error in production (CD premastering).
I'd imagine the producer had a cd player with deemphasis always on so he/she never notice the problem.
early CDs are particularly messy. some don't have preemphasis (PE) bits in the TOC but in the subcode.
so even some modern software cannot correctly identify them.
I'm so happy that cd gradually becomes irrelevant today.
> I also still have a good number of classical CDs from the Eighties here, let's see how many I can find with Emphasis.
I ripped all my CDs to computer, so can quickly find them in the metadata info. I found ~ 30 PE CDs in my collection.
I saw people having tons of PE cds by searching their ripped CD database.
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ … t-26907924
https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ … t-25226262
It would be useful to construct a database that has all the PE CD ids.
> I can only imagine that's an error in production (CD premastering).
I'd imagine the producer had a cd player with deemphasis always on so he/she never notice the problem.
Which "producer" would that be? And which CDs would a producer be playing during production, i.e. before premastering?
Which "producer" would that be? And which CDs would a producer be playing during production, i.e. before premastering?
you're right... such convenience is only available now.
people in the 80s must have very different tools and workflows.
final cd wouldn't be available before premastering.
Checking the CD audio and Emphasis situation.
First test was to play:
DENON AUDIO TECHNICAL CD 38C39-7147
It contains various tracks with and without Emphasis.
First insight:
My Pioneer DV575A multi format player does not transmit the Emphasis flag on it’s digital output.
(EDIT: Just tested, on it’s analog outputs Pioneer DV575A handles De-Emphasis correctly.)
My Marantz DR700 does, and ADI-2 Pro works like intended, showing the active Emphasis, so on it goes with testing:
From 40 CDs tested (only Classical), 2 CDs are with Emphasis:
• J. S. Bach: Flute Sonatas, OPUS 9351 1758, 1985
• Haydn Zingarese ..., HARMONIA MUNDI FRANCE HMC 901057, 1981
Both origin from the early days of CD.
I think most record labels don’t like Emphasis, because it reduces the maximum level that can be achieved.
10 dB of treble boost eats from the headroom.
I stopped there, because testing of hundreds of CD’s is pointless for me.
Then I listen-checked the “Haydn Zingarese ...” in Tidal Hifi vs CD, and indeed the De-Emphasis was missed during transfer, so the Recording sounds overly bright.
Here is one example-list of CDs with Emphasis, with and without correct flag:
https://www.studio-nibble.com/cd/index. … ease_list)
Resume:
There are more CDs out with Emphasis than I expected.
So having the De-Emphasis function in ADI-2 is a welcome feature, even to correct mastering errors both on CD or in the Streaming.
I saw that list as well, I don't think I have any of them. My conclusion would be "fewer than I expeced"... :-)
I'd assume on classical CDs you don't lose that much headroom. Does the Pioneer do deemphasis correctly across DA? I have a 565 here. Could also test how an old external DA like the Denon DA-500 handles this, but then... Too much effort :-P
I saw that list as well, I don't think I have any of them. My conclusion would be "fewer than I expeced"... :-)
... Does the Pioneer do deemphasis correctly across DA? I have a 565 here.
I don’t think the list is comprehensive.
Just tested, on it’s analog outputs Pioneer DV575A handles De-Emphasis correctly.
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