Topic: Pre-Sales Questions

Hello,

I’m brand new to this forum, & jonesing to switch to RME Fireface UFX II(?); but I have some pre-sale questions, I’m hoping can be answered here?

1) How stable are the current (non-beta) RME drivers? I’m running Monterey 12.6.1 with an M1 Max CPU and 64GB of RAM. My DAW is Logic X 10.7.6. Are there problems with the Fireface UFX II in that enviro?

2) I’ve noticed that when my Monterey laptop goes to sleep, my MOTU 8Pre almost always disconnects. Is this a problem with RME gear?

3) From what I’ve read, looks like ADAT can be used to connect Interfaces from two different manufacturers provided the clocking can be synced; Hoping RME and MOTU would? They both have ADAT, & flexible clocking options.

4) Since the Fireface UFX+ is no longer made, is the Fireface UFX II a legit replacement? I'm looking for 10+ hard inputs (4 of them pre's), front-panel metering, multiple outs + multiple headphones.

5) For protocol, still hedging a bit on what to consider…how does USB 2.0 compare to TB2? Seems no one developing past USB 2 ...Is this more driven by chip shortage, stability issues, or other? Are TB3 or even TB4 even conceivable let alone close to development?

Thank you so much for any info!

2021 MacBook Pro+M1 Max Chip+64GB RAM
AI: Still Shopping
OS: Monterey 12.6.1
DAW: Logic X 10.7.6

2 (edited by ramses 2022-12-31 09:39:03)

Re: Pre-Sales Questions

Hi and welcome to the RME user forum.

I think this is not the "official" place for things like pre-sales. I only mention it as you ask officially for "pre-sales".
But such questions are also answered here.

If you want an official statement / pre-sales from RME, I am not 100% sure what the official/formal way is. Either through the reseller or to write an e-mail to RME. Then you can send them the link to this thread.

I can only answer a few of your questions, as I have no Apple-based environment.

To 3) Of course, it's possible. There are sometimes different possibilities, where to place the clock master. It depends on the devices that you want to connect. You can clock synch either through digital connections (ADAT, AES, SPDIF, MADI, …) or by using Word Clock (WC) or a combination of both. You need to tell the devices that you intend to connect.

To 4) The UFX II is a cheaper version of the UFX+ without MADI and also without USB3/TB because for the transmission of 30 channels USB2 is completely sufficient. RME supports up to 68 channels via USB2. According to the info from the forum, there will be a successor to the UFX+, probably purely USB3 based. If you don't need MADI, you can also use the UFX II.

To 5) I wouldn't worry and base your choice more on the type and amount of I/O ports and product features that you require. There is no significant performance difference between USB, FW and Thunderbolt drivers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIf4QGYs-c
If you look at the RTL (round trip latency) of different RME solutions that I used, then you see that everythink delivers about the same excellent performance. From my blog: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … es-v2-jpg/
More important is here, that RMEs devices are FPGA based and even the communication to the PC via USB/FW is being performed by own code inside the FPGA instead of using 3rd party chips that can be slow or bugged.
At the end of the day USB2 / USB3 is available on every PC, costs less and allows for longer cable lengths, which gives you advantages to place the components around your work desk.

To be able to quicker/easier compare the different USB/FW/TB based RME interfaces (except PCI/PCIe based solutions) you can have a look to my Excel which you can find in my blog article here:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … B-MADIfac/
Direct Link to Excel: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … 9-19-xlsx/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pre-Sales Questions

Hi!

Not a bad idea to switch over to RME ... ;-)

1) RME drivers are really stable in general.

2) Can't give an answer here, but I already heard about some issues with sleep mode. 

3) Yes, ADAT is an independent standard. Some users prefer clocking over word clock connections instead, but normally it works without any issues over ADAT. Of course the clock signal goes always only the same way as the audio stream. In my opinion it's worth to try out what master/slave configuration works better / fits your needs better. As far I know, in general MOTU devices work great as standalone units.

4) At least the UFX II is a great interface. It has 12 analog ins/outs and is expandable over ADAT (two ports each direction) and AES/EBU.

5) USB 2.0 simply is stable and fast enough for many audio applications. See here: https://youtu.be/dSIf4QGYs-c

FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Pre-Sales Questions

Hi Ramses and oli,

Thank you very much for the replies! For sleep mode problem, there is a command line program called caffeinate that will prevent sleep, but not the ideal workaround.

I think I should be able to get the clocking set up for a MOTU/RME wedding. Though I'm hoping to be so in love with the RME that I'll leave the MOTU behind.

Yeah, the UFX II does look pretty good!

Thanks Ramses for the excellent resources! I don't need MADI, and I guess the longer cables of USB2 *are* important to me.

I just have this niggling little voice in the back of my head saying "eh? You're buying an interface in 2022 that uses a protocol released in 2000?". Although I don't think twice about using MIDI lol. Plus, I'm not an early adopter if I can help it; so I guess waiting for a TB3 or TB4 interface to be proved solid by customer usage will be a long time in coming!

Thanks again,

SurfaceTension

2021 MacBook Pro+M1 Max Chip+64GB RAM
AI: Still Shopping
OS: Monterey 12.6.1
DAW: Logic X 10.7.6

5 (edited by ramses 2023-01-02 09:37:49)

Re: Pre-Sales Questions

So, you still have doubts … Ok … Some more to this topic.

SurfaceTension wrote:

I just have this niggling little voice in the back of my head saying "eh? You're buying an interface in 2022 that uses a protocol released in 2000?". Although I don't think twice about using MIDI lol. Plus, I'm not an early adopter if I can help it; so I guess waiting for a TB3 or TB4 interface to be proved solid by customer usage will be a long time in coming!

TBH … what's the point of releasing, e.g., a TB interface if only a fraction of PCs and laptops support Thunderbolt?
In most, if not all cases, only the more expensive devices have thunderbolt support.
Keep also in mind that you can't simply upgrade a PC to Thunderbolt. I am very dissatisfied with such a design because I am used to, that normally, everything on a PC can be upgraded through PCIe slots with up to 16 PCIe lanes.

Moreover, I heard that a vendor cannot simply release a device containing a thunderbolt chip. Intel demands a licensing process for every device. Therefore, I do not wonder anymore why only a fraction of PCs and Laptops support thunderbolt and if, only the more "top of the line" products.

So, a recording interface that is exclusively based on Thunderbolt would only be usable for a fraction of users. A combination of Thunderbolt and USB3/4 would make interfaces unnecessarily expensive and add a complexity to the hardware which is not necessarily needed. At least not for RME who know how to write reliably and efficient drivers and FPGA based communication on the recording interface no matter what transport medium is being used.

I regard it as a big advantage that RME chooses, what's required, so that most users benefit from being able to use the interface for most computers and not making it unnecessarily expensive.

The max supported cable length of thunderbolt is around 2 m, that is not much, I require at least 3 m to place the recording components left from my desk and the PC on the right side. That is another reason against the usage of high speed interfaces which always result in shorter cable lengths.

Look at the former product MADIface Pro. RME can support 68ch (in and out) by using USB2.
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/products/madiface_pro.php
And you are worried about 30ch in and out over USB2?

The higher Bandwidth of TB/USB3 doesn't make the RTL any significantly faster, as you can see here:

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/2343-ufx-ufx-raydat-latencies-v2-jpg/

I think there is also a difference in the type of data transfer when we talk about audio transfer.

The ASIO driver is instantly transporting data of all I/O ports over USB/FW/TB, no matter whether a port is in use or not.
This cannot be done any faster by as the needed bandwidth is fix and runs in a streaming / real-time fashion and depends solely on the number of channels, bit depth and the sample rate. Similar to a video session.

Higher bandwidth interfaces only would have a benefit if the type of datatransfer would be something like downloading a large file, where it doesn't matter, when exactly the packets arrive .. best as fast as possible.

But this transfer pattern you do not have with something like phone calls, video conferences and the transfer or recording and playback data from / to a recording interfaces.

What counts here is to have an uninterrupted reliable data transfer without too much latency
- inside of the PC, to be able to process audio data "in time" without loss (low DPC latencies, good drivers not blocking a CPU too long)
- for the transport of audio data over the transport medium without too much latency

Therefore, USB2 is fully sufficient and - as I mentioned already - RME uses no 3rd party communication chips on the devices that could be flawed by design to get most reliability and compatibility to the USB protocol standards.

There is a little advantage of PCIe/TB (external PCIe) at high computing loads and if you need to use smaller ASIO buffer sizes when a machine is under high load. But also this difference is neither visible nor significant even if you test with big artificial DAW loads, see below.

With Cubase, I created a project with 400 tracks and around 800 VSTs (two VST in each track).
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … cks-de-en/

Playback without audio loss was possible with UFX+ at the lowest ASIO buffer size of 32 samples at single speed and with the lowest number of samples at double speed (96 kHz) which is 64 buffers.
DRAM consumption of the project was around 26 GB.

I compared UFX+ through USB3 and a RME RayDAT (PCIe card).
It's the same excellent performance without audio loss during playback, and with about the same CPU consumption.

At the end of the day, you should also ask yourself why RME is known/famous for the driver quality...
Because this is since the beginning since over 20 years when we even had no USB3, Thunderbolt, PCIe.

As a side note … do you also have the same niggling little voice that tells you that you need an €8000 PC for recording with latest Threadripper 64 core CPU??? No, then think about why not. Is it maybe because such a number crunching compute power is in most cases not needed, and DAWs usually would not really benefit from a very high core count? In fact, what's in most cases more needed is the proper balancing of core count and single thread performance depending on your application demands. And this depends on how your DAW projects are. Some people only require little power for recording and mixing, with not too many CPU hungry VSTs. But some people use many inserts in a track or use CPU hungry VSTi.
Or do you feel bad that you have no 40 or 100 GBit switches at home? Well, you are not operating a data center.

It always depends, and you should try to see behind the curtain to get a better understanding of what's needed when and why. Don't stress yourself for no reason thinking, you would miss something if the recording interface doesn't use the latest high-speed communication standards.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

6 (edited by KarenCornish 2023-06-30 13:28:16)

Re: Pre-Sales Questions

Personally, I've had a stable experience with the non-beta RME drivers on a similar setup with Monterey 12.6.1 and an M1 Max CPU. I haven't heard of specific issues with the Fireface UFX II in that environment, but it's good to double-check with others. Regarding your MOTU 8Pre disconnecting, it's unlikely a problem with RME gear. ADAT can indeed connect interfaces from different manufacturers, and the Fireface UFX II is a legit replacement for the UFX+. USB 2.0 vs. TB2 depends on device compatibility. Good luck! Check out this helpful forum link-building article for SEO tips.