Topic: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

<Apologies if this has been asked. I did search but couldn’t find anything>


Re: RME ADI-2 DAC FS.

I have a new power amp which takes XLR or RCA inputs. Interconnect length is short (60cm) so from a resistance to interference perspective I would think that one is as good as the other (correct me if I’m wrong).

But, I read that the RME output circuitry for the two outputs is unique to the output, so I wondered whether one is preferable to the other when it comes to driving the amp?

Amp input impedance is 50 KOhm.

2 (edited by ramses 2023-04-29 20:25:20)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

I wouldn't expect any difference in sound at such short cable runs, but using balanced you can't go wrong, it is preferable and I would use it even with such short connections. Google for balanced vs. unbalanced.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

Both ADI-2 DAC’s outputs deliver the exact same quality, as they use a similar circuit.


The XLR has an advantage regarding ground loop related hum and sometimes even computer noise that enters a system via the USB connection.

The RCA’s advantage in a Hifi environment is it’s 6 dB lower level.
If your power amp doesn’t have input level controls this usually leads to a 6 dB better level match.


So, if your power amp has input level controls, or if you hear any noise or hum with RCA, use the XLRs.
Else, use the RCAs.

For level matching, read this, Case 2 is for you:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 21#p161721

Always keep in mind:
If you don’t hear noise, you don’t have a noise problem.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

Thanks for this. I have read the articles. I am not very knowledgeable with regards to the detail, so please tell me if this simple interpretation is right.

Firstly : Ideally you want ADI  volume to be at about -18db(r) at normal listening levels.
For me normal is about -28db(r) when using RCA.
If I used XLR normal would require a further 6dB of attenuation, making normal about -34dB.
So RCA is preferred here.


Secondly: My Power amp gain or input sensitivity is not adjustable. But I could use passive line attenuators to reduce the line level by 10dB, which would mean the ADI  normal volume would then be around the preferred -18dB(r).


Thirdly: As it is, there is no audible hum or buz at no signal, from the ADI / AMP  combination. So is it worth making any changes?


Please let me know if I’ve understood roughly right or am confused.

Thanks for you help and patience.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

You completely understood.

-28 dBr is close enough, specially as you say your system works clean.
Of course, if you like, you can spend the few bucks for the attenuators to fetch the ultimate in resolution.

Probably inaudible, but might “feel” even better smile

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

KaiS wrote:

The RCA’s advantage in a Hifi environment is it’s 6 dB lower level.
If your power amp doesn’t have input level controls this usually leads to a 6 dB better level match.

I don't think you can make that sweeping statement. Yes, it's true that XLR of ADI 2 DAC FS has a gain + 6dB compared to RCA, but: There are power amps out there, which have a -6 dB reduced sensitivity with XLR compared to RCA (e.g. T+A A200 - +37 vs. +31 dB (RCA / XLR)) - therefore it doesn't matter using RCA or XLR from a level perspective. Or did I get something wrong?

7 (edited by KaiS 2023-04-30 08:14:07)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

user317 wrote:
KaiS wrote:

The RCA’s advantage in a Hifi environment is it’s 6 dB lower level.
If your power amp doesn’t have input level controls this usually leads to a 6 dB better level match.

I don't think you can make that sweeping statement. Yes, it's true that XLR of ADI 2 DAC FS has a gain + 6dB compared to RCA, but: There are power amps out there, which have a -6 dB reduced sensitivity with XLR compared to RCA (e.g. T+A A200 - +37 vs. +31 dB (RCA / XLR)) - therefore it doesn't matter using RCA or XLR from a level perspective. Or did I get something wrong?

Yes, of course, everything is possible.
Thanx for the hint, will keep an eye on it.

An answer can’t be more specific than the question.
In this case the model of the power amp is not mentioned.

But- the difference between same or +6 dB is clearly audible, so everybody can check his setup.
Only - most misinterpret the 6 dB higher level as better sound, which it’s not.


Most important - does a setup work nicely, without noise and hum, which seems to be the case here.


BTW: +37 dB gain on a power amp, unbalanced connection, is on the very high side.
One will have a hard time to achieve a setup with inaudible noise, specially with efficient speakers connected.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

KaiS wrote:

BTW: +37 dB gain on a power amp, unbalanced connection, is on the very high side.
One will have a hard time to achieve a setup with inaudible noise, specially with efficient speakers connected.

You're perfectly right. The T+A A200 is a pretty bad amp - it's not worth the money at all (even 500 € would be too much). It's just horribly bad from my perspective. I wouldn't buy it today any more if I would have understood those facts completely a few years ago.

The T+A A200 noises audibly even using speakers with lower sensitivity. The measured values presented by T+A are so much "misleading" compared to the values measured by specialized press (see the links on the T+A A200 homepage). If you read those values, you understand, that this amplifier must be noisy.
They brag about a development partnership or something like that with Purifi - I don't understand, why Purifi accepted a massive worsening of there concept. A AUDIOPHONICS HPA-S400ET is much better (measured by amir of audioscience review) as the T+A device at much lower costs.

But the "good news" is: because the T+A A200 noises so much even with inputs shortened(!!), you can't hear any noise from the ADI 2 DAC FS at all (even if DAC is set to + 0 dB), because the noise created by the DAC is much to low to be audible after the T+A A200. The bad development quality of the T+A A200 overlays all ... .

Before I bought the ADI 2 as preamp for the T+A A200, I used the T+A VVM (Vorverstärkermodule). This is really bad (in conjunction with T+A music player balanced). T+A rates it with 109 dB(A) noise voltage ratio - never ever! The VVM (310 €) basically consists of a TDA 7303 (price per unit $ 0.18 if > 100 pieces).

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

Just for completeness or in case anybody likes to comment further, the power amp used by me (the OP) that is  giving no audible buzz or hum when connected through RCA,  is a Musical Fidelity M6s PRX.

10 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-01 07:55:12)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

Crunchynut wrote:

Just for completeness or in case anybody likes to comment further, the power amp used by me (the OP) that is  giving no audible buzz or hum when connected through RCA,  is a Musical Fidelity M6s PRX.

Looks like a good choice.

Gain/sensitivity is not spec‘ed, but seems practically reasonable (read: on the lower side) which is a requirement for clean sound.
120 dBA SNR points in the same direction.
Saves from using attenuators.

The distortion vs power chart is textbook perfect, if such has influence on sound - on this low level of distortions - it‘s probably positive.
http://www.hifisound.de/out/media/pdf.p … %3D%3D.pdf

BTW:
Measured SNR is 6 better for RCA input, over XLR.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

KaiS wrote:

Looks like a good choice.

Well - at first glance - but not really after closer inspection.

KaiS wrote:

Gain/sensitivity is not spec‘ed, but seems practically reasonable (read: on the lower side) which is a requirement for clean sound.

29.8 db is quite high, too (sensitivity 1.18 V - i-fidelity).

KaiS wrote:

120 dBA SNR points in the same direction.

Same as T+A - marketing speak or as I'm saying: purposefully misleading. Stereoplay measured it to -92 dB (1 W / 8 R) (T+A A200: -93 dB) and i-fidelity is much lower, too. No SINAD measurements at all.

KaiS wrote:

Saves from using attenuators.

Based on the relevant measurements, I'm expecting audible noise at the speaker, too (tweeter) like the T+A A200, which is measured nearly equally by stereoplay. My expectation therefore: The self generated noise most probably overlays the noise produced by the ADI DAC 2 FS, too. Therefore: no attenuators necessary.

Hmm - two different stereoplay tests. I'm pretty puzzled.

KaiS wrote:

BTW:
Measured SNR is 6 better for RCA input, over XLR.

If this is true, this would mean the developers would have failed.

All in one, I wouldn't say this device is a good choice at all. Much too expensive in relation to the service offered. Idle power consumption > 70 W (stereoplay measured 85 W!) is a joke (just calculate the costs for electricity 5h each day over the year - 155 kWh * 0.40 € => 62,05 € per year in Germany actually (or even more)).

12 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-01 10:26:56)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

The 92 dB SNR here is referenced to 1 W @ 8 Ohm / 2.83 V:
(1) https://www.reichmann-audiosysteme.de/i … eoplay.pdf

Interesting the same magazine published 11 to 16 dB better SNRs here:
(2) http://www.hifisound.de/out/media/pdf.p … %3D%3D.pdf


Based on the lesser result from (1):
Combined with a typical Hifi loudspeaker‘s efficiency of ca. 85 dB SPL @ 1 meter distance @ 1 W, the audible noise would be 7 dB BELOW the threshold of hearing of a young, perfectly healthy ear.

Even in a perfectly quiet room there‘s no chance to hear this noise, and air molecules motion’s noise is in the same magnitude.


Factory specs of power amps SNR usually refer to nominal full power, “Dynamic Range” would be the better term.
230 W @ 8 Ohm is 24 dB above 1 W.

92+24=116 dB, close to the 120 dB factory specs.
None of the measurements tell the filter (A, CCIR, Lin) or detector characteristics (peak, rms, quasi-peak) and input termination used, which can significantly vary the result, so don’t expect 100% congruence.


Resume:
Crunchynut doesn’t hear noise, so there’s no noise problem.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

Yup. No noise with my ear when pressed against driver or tweeter.

Also, just in defence of the MF product, it’s a bit out of context to suggest it is a poor product based on measurements and power consumption since there is more to consider. And the headline grabbing annual electricity cost statement suggests that a competing amp runs at 0W.

Thanks all for your comments.

14 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-01 10:37:57)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

Crunchynut wrote:

Yup. No noise with my ear when pressed against driver or tweeter.

... this alone is indeed remarkable!

Crunchynut wrote:

Also, just in defence of the MF product, it’s a bit out of context to suggest it is a poor product based on measurements and power consumption since there is more to consider. And the headline grabbing annual electricity cost statement suggests that a competing amp runs at 0W

I even don’t get the point.
A class A/B power amp isn’t possible without some idle current.
The 70 W is completely in the usual range.

Contemporary switched mode/digital power amps are a different story, but I wouldn’t compare those- although sound-wise I even have very good experience with them too.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

KaiS wrote:

The 92 dB SNR here is referenced to 1 W @ 8 Ohm / 2.83 V:
(1) https://www.reichmann-audiosysteme.de/i … eoplay.pdf

Interesting the same magazine published 11 to 16 dB better SNRs here:
(2) http://www.hifisound.de/out/media/pdf.p … %3D%3D.pdf

add (2): Measurements without telling any reference are worthless.

KaiS wrote:

Based on the lesser result from (1):
Combined with a typical Hifi loudspeaker‘s efficiency of ca. 85 dB SPL @ 1 meter distance @ 1 W, the audible noise would be 7 dB BELOW the threshold of hearing of a young, perfectly healthy ear.

Even in a perfectly quiet room there‘s no chance to hear this noise, and air molecules motion’s noise is in the same magnitude.

That's true - no noise @ 1 meter distance audible. If you can hear it near the tweeter or not depends on the sensitivity of the tweeter itself.

KaiS wrote:

Factory specs of power amps SNR usually refer to nominal full power, “Dynamic Range” would be the better term.
230 W @ 8 Ohm is 24 dB above 1 W.

Yes - but pretty meaningless. Who listens @home using 230 W output power permanently? Practical values are ~ 1 W. 10 or 50 W would be already pretty loud based on your mentioned loudspeaker‘s efficiency above. Therefore, most relevant are the measurements referenced to 1 W or even less.

KaiS wrote:

Contemporary switched mode/digital power amps are a different story, but I wouldn’t compare those- although sound-wise I even have very good experience with them too.

It's a different story - true. But we're living today and not 10 years before :-). 70 W idle power consumption or more is usual for class A/B designs. But there are equal solutions nowadays - at the latest since Purifi announced their new Class D approach. Usually no need to buy class A/B technique any more.

To be exact, there is no digital power amp at all. Class D power amps use the power transistors in switched mode and the signal is PWM modulated e.g. - there is no ADC or DAC anywhere.

16 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-01 14:31:21)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

Measurements that don’t publish ALL circumstances can just be taken as no more than thumb-estimates.

This is why standards like the DIN HIFI 45500, IHF A-202/ EIA RS-490, IEC 60268 etc. exist, but most contemporary review(er)s don’t even know them or don’t care, or measure to their own “standards“.


The amplifier noise measurement in dBA RMS (A-weighting filters out hum) relative to nominal full power has established as marketing’s “quasi”-standard, because it delivers the highest dB-values possible.

It’s perfect to impress potential buyers.


To further “improve” the figures without improving the actual device, the Chinese started to measure power as momentary Peak to Peak, opposed to long term RMS.
Peak to Peak is a power that’s at no single moment delivered to the load, in reality.
This alone achieves 9 dB or more higher values (if you stay with RMS for the noise) for the same amp - true progress smile



Anyway, measurements can tell a lot, but finally it’s the practical result that counts, for the good or the bad.
As you found with your T&A A-200.



I’m happy we have such great devices like RME’s ADI-2-series where, e.g., it’s close to impossible to squeeze out the slightest amount of audible noise in any configuration.
A fact that highly correlates with ADI-2’s extremely well documented measurements too.



I’m not 100% sure about your classification of Class D amps not being “digital”:

The analog signal in fact is converted into a PWM or pulse train signal, containing two state signal levels only, the primary definition of digital.
There’s even a clock.
On the other hand “analog” design parts can often be found too, like an overall feedback loop.

Probably Class-D is a good label for the whole range of these designs.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

I had some graininess in the sound via unbalanced output which was gone when I switched to XLR. Obviously different cables.

18 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-02 12:10:00)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

BoooM wrote:

I had some graininess in the sound via unbalanced output which was gone when I switched to XLR. Obviously different cables.

If you switch from unbalanced to balanced different electronics are used in the signal path.
If your unbalanced path sounds “grainy” it’s technically broken, defective.

19 (edited by BoooM 2023-05-02 12:36:37)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

Meanwhile I got galvanic isolation for USB, that helped tremendously. Haven't checked unbalanced since then on my studio setup. I can't think of it being advantageous if balanced is available. You even can run non-shielded balanced cables which you probably shouldn't do unbalanced.

20 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-02 15:17:51)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

BoooM wrote:

Meanwhile I got galvanic isolation for USB, that helped tremendously. Haven't checked unbalanced since then on my studio setup. I can't think of it being advantageous if balanced is available. You even can run non-shielded balanced cables which you probably shouldn't do unbalanced.

That’s a possible reason:

PC’s, via the USB path, can spill a lot of audible and inaudible garbage into the signal path.


ADI-2 by itself, internally, is perfectly immune to this.
All garbage is kept on the outside.
You will never have any loss of audio quality on headphones plugged directly into it, no matter what happens on PSU or USB side.


Power- and headphone-amps connected to ADI-2 externally is a completly different story:

On unbalanced interconnects the cable’s shield is shared for a double-porpose:

(1) Shielding from electric stray fields.
(2) Providing the common ground reference for the audio signal, which incorporates running possible noise garbage to the next device.

While (1) usually works quite well, (2) incorporates a big problem, if noise and hum currents that origin from mains power and USB run through this shield:
Due to the voltage drop at the cable shield’s impedance of typically ca. 1 Ohm a noise signal develops, that fully adds to the audio signal.

The best known of these effects is the hum, caused from the so called “ground loop”.


Less obvious are distortions from high frequency intermodulations:

As power amps have a limited “speed”, they cannot handle the mentioned USB high frequency garbage, they can distort if they don’t use proper filters at their input.
This distortion “demodulates” the primarily inaudible high frequencies into the audio band.

If you ever heard the “tock, tock, tock...” from a cellphone spilling into the stereo just before it rings- thats such an effect.

Furthermore the HF saturates the power transistors, preventing them from doing their audio job properly.



With balanced interconnects audio and shield are separated, which circumvents those detrimental effects.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

user317 wrote:

[To be exact, there is no digital power amp at all. Class D power amps use the power transistors in switched mode and the signal is PWM modulated e.g. - there is no ADC or DAC anywhere.

Exactly, that "digital" here is a misnomer, confusing the (maybe binary and hence also digital-looking) messenger with the (analog) message as at the end of the day, the PWM signal doesn't represent symbols from a discreet character set.


KaiS wrote:

I’m not 100% sure about your classification of Class D amps not being “digital”:

The analog signal in fact is converted into a PWM or pulse train signal, containing two state signal levels only, the primary definition of digital.

Something being digital however by definition demands independence from a carrier, as it is the whole concept of having physically always time- and value-continous carriers (even within so-called "digital" circuits) and logically abstracting that down to symbols by introducing thresholds.

Taken "digital amplifiers" strictly by the name, it would mean to somehow amplify a number or symbol in general which isn't possible but only applicable to the carrier (within the thresholds not changing the meaning of the digital embedded information though).

Since you're most probably from Germany and highly educated and skilled with electronics (unlike me unfortunately), you might be interesting in that awesome blog article by some guy who goes into almost philosophical detail about analog and digital as hardly anyone else, which also triggered me leave a comment:

https://perspektiefe.privatsprache.de/d … nd-analog/

22 (edited by KaiS 2023-05-22 21:07:17)

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

little-endian wrote:

https://perspektiefe.privatsprache.de/d … nd-analog/

“...ein Symbolsystem dann digital ist, wenn es syntaktisch und semantisch durchgängig disjunkt und effektiv differenziert ist...”

Following this philosophy an ADC or DAC isn‘t digital, as by the dither noise, both conversions don‘t deliver an exactly deterministic result throughout.


For a Class D amplifier I‘d like to think it from the other side:
It‘s not a classical analog amp, as it‘s signal handling has binary inter-steps.
This results in limitations an analog amp doesn’t have, like a certain upper band-limit (related to the Class D’s clock).

It might, on the other hand, not be a digital amp too, as it does not use binary symbols that represent numbers, and it does not amplify by processing binary symbols with multiplications.


Anyway, the main point and basic idea behind a Class D Amp always had been to be as energy-efficient as possible.
Because of this special feature, those amps are used everywhere these days, not just in the audio world.
In the technical applications the variant that uses a digital input signal with binary processing all through is widespread, as it interfaces directly with a processor.

Re: ADI-2 DAC FS > Better fidelity from RCA or XLR output circuitry?

True, but for me, an ADC for example deserves its "D" in its abbreviation righteously through "generating" discreet symbols from a limited character set according to the analog input.

In most cases, it won't be deterministic, especially not when adding dither, but the ADC creates a stream of numbers which from then on shall be the declared precious digital content (again wrapped into analog "containers" as there is no way around it for physical representation).


As for the binary looking PWM signal which a class D amp processes - isn't the time domain and thus the lengths of any of those more or less binary looking states still continous, eventually leading to a signal in the audible band which then is both time- and value-continous without ever having represented discreet symbols of any character set?

For example, the pits and lands from a LaserDisc also have a binary pattern at their outer boundaries after the original signal has been deliberately clipped to match the physical format for recording, but at least the FM-video is truely analog. To my understanding, the key difference is that the lengths of the pits and lands aren't discreet, unlike the ones on a CD from 3T to 11T (under approximation and tolerances, but logical strictness of course) but continous and thus not encoding numbers.