1 (edited by bvogeler 2008-09-04 23:19:57)

Topic: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Though I can't say wether this actually is an DC 5 issue, it seems at least to be related to it, since all recording took place solely through Global Record in DC 5 Beta 4.

Using two ff800 in DC 5 Beta in a cascade, recording 20 channels analogue in, 10 from each device, saving the takes to 20 mono files.
In 2 of the 11 recorded sessions, aparently all of the 20 mono files saved show sort of pink noise, waveforms are fully squared out up to 0dB.
In further 2 of the 11 recordings, this occurs only for about one second during takes, again aparently through all 20 files.
Note: I will have to verify for an occurance in all files tomorrow by walking through all tracks separately!

I can not even say it's reproduceable, since it happened as well at the beginning, as in the middle and in the end of the recording session. The occurence of the faulty tracks was 2nd and 10th take, complete failure, 4th and 7th take, short failure, so this didn't happen by any regularity visible or audible to me.

Recordings had been done 96KHz, 24 Bit throughout, and varied in length between 5 and 15 minutes each. HD usage was measured around 2%-5% in DC.

No other audio application was running or writing/reading data while recording.

Note: DC was showing recording time in red, after recording, throughout all recordings, something which I had never seen before. So if this should be related to the failure, then smaller ocurrences of it should be present in all files. I will check for this too tomorrow and get back to report.

All tracks were temporarily written and subsequently saved to an external SATA2 hard disk using sonnet tempo sata express 34 card adapter.

Latest drivers were used on XP Pro SP3 on a Mac Book Pro using Bootcamp.

None of this seemed to happen with Beta 3 during two sessions with the exact same setup, apart from using Beta 3 instead of Beta 4 and driver 2.896 instead of 2.898.

However it is possible that I only missed the failure then since it didn't produce any audible faults in the rough mix.

Though I am not likely to wish for it, I hope there's a chance to reproduce this in order to be able fix it;-)

Best Regards
Boris Vogeler

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

I checked for the corrupted data again today, it shows that all twenty mono files are corrupted where the failure occured. No files where corrupted when Beta 3 with driver 2.896 had been in use.

Since I see DC as a reliable recording setup I will go on testing against the driver first.

I went back to driver version 2.896 today.
Tomorrow I will try to reproduce the recording procedure two times, one with Beta 3 and one with Beta 4.
In case none of the errors occurs with those settings, I will again go through the same procedure with driver version 2.898 installed.
If the failure occurs within the latter setup again, I will also check, in a third session procedure, different saving procedures, just to be sure, in stereo files and multiple channel files instead of mono files.

This will take some time :-(( So I hopefully can report who could be the rogue guy latest the day after tomorrow.

Regards
Boris Vogeler

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Update: Did various checks on the corrupted files today. DC offset revealed nothing, declipping brought some things of more interest: At the beginning and end of the files it showed some details of the recorded material, so it seems that the signal is just extremly boosted in order to get recorded fully clipped and distorted throughout almost all recorded data.

I then did various tests with the reinstalled driver 2.896:

Using Beta 4 on the first recorded session everything was fine.

On the second recorded session the extreme boost started amidst the recording, since this time there were very low signals present on the 20 analogue inputs, the boost was clearly visible and audible without having to declip in the first place. Time and HD display were red.

On the third recording everything was fine again, except that HD usage was red.

My first conclusion, it is not a driver failure, since 2.896 worked flawlessly before with Beta 3.
My second is, if it is DC Beta 4, what could bring up this behaviour of boosting the recorded signal?

In Global Record's settings I was using, apart from K-System 14db, the default configuration.

A pitty I ran out of time then, so I will have to go on testing tomorrw with Beta 3, this would be the exact same setup, which did flawlessly record before. If the failure won't occur again then I will have to seriously suspect DC 5 Beta 4 to be the at least involved, even if that's not a proof, it might be reason to look into it...

However I will also run  a few sessions with a standard 20 channel recording into single mono files through Sam Pro, to see what happens.

I'll report again tomorrow night.

Best Regards
BV

4

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Boris,

thanks for the detailed testing and the time you invest in this matter. To help in chasing down the problem here are some infos:

- make sure you are recording to a NTFS formatted drive, not FAT32.

- the file time in red indicates that a buffer could not be written to the hard drive. DC uses 10 buffers internally, so this error requires a very heavy blocking of the hard drive access for quite some time. Usually caused by other programs. Make sure that you have disabled the invisible ones too (Virus detection, Windows Indexing, Power settings etc).

The red colour appears the moment the error happens, so you can stop recording right after you see red (literally... ;-)

- The MacBook Pro needs some optimizing, as explained here:

http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=591

- use the DPC latency checker to make sure nothing else blocks the system. Just run it in parallel while you are recording.

- Finally keep the Settings dialog open to make sure no FW transmission errors are shown

Edit: - A comparison with Beta 3 might be partly invalid. Due to the multicard bug it can be that you record only audio from one FF on double the tracks.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Hello Matthias,

first thing I did today was going through the list of tweaks and turning of the bootcamp manager, which did a lot as was visible in the DPC latency checker. Also I managed to stop XP System Restore which might have helped too. Write combining was off anyway, powermize shouldn't be present anyway.

Most importend I must admit that I was using a HFS+ volume through MacDrive for external storage what I had thought shouldn't have much of an impact on single disk writes, and that could have been my biggest mistake. Switching to another, NTFS 1Tb via the same route, saved me from getting a red alert.

I then recorded another 25 minutes with DC Beta 4, first it didn't playback properly, distorted sound, a bit like bad driver communication, so I restarted and voila, the saved 20 mono files played back just fine, no boosted up to distortion volume etc.

Hmm... I thought I'd give Samplitude a try, twenty tracks input recorded over 25 minutes, all fine.

This was quite an impressing change and confusing at the same time, I will do further recording tests tomorrow with DC and the changed setup, since one question sill remains: What of these parameters that I have changed would have caused DC to boost the recording level up to full ditortion? Is it possible at all, that a blocked disk write process does force this?

I will again report tomorrow if anything was still fine, doing some heavy recording jobs.

Thanks for your advice!

Best Regards
Boris

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Update: Today still everything was running smoothly. Hmm... there only remains my own distrust in a configuration wherein I have to switch of certain "essential" services like the bootcamp manager before things get going.

And still I would like to know, how a halted disk write process can cause such errors, like boosting up through the rooftop, in recording/saving within DC. Would make me feel more save in the future, else I would prefer to go back to Vaio AR series which has been rock solid with me the last years.

So any hints on how to track this issue further down are welcome, and I sure would invest some more time into testing, if of any use for DC.

Thanks for helping!

Best regards
Boris

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Today for some more on this topic:

The recent two recording sessions, using the same setup, writing to NTFS external etc, were still showing those short boosted level spikes - one up to two per recording, in almost every second recording done.

Those were the very same recordings where again the Time and HD Usage indicators went red during recording.

To get into this a little more deeply I saved these recordings as Multiple Channel File as well as Single Mono Files. Those recordings with the red indicators showed the boosted level spikes at the very same position. So it shurely happens during the recording process, i.e. writing the temporary file to disk, not during the saving process.

Another thing I was realizing while going deeper into the waveforms, there are right after those spikes, delayed for about half a second, one or two still noticeable spikes of lesser level, but audible (sounds like a hickup).

I then checked today our studio current while running the latency checker with nothing very obvious coming up. Nevertheless I will check all wiring and grounding in the studio tomorrow.

I already did another 20 input channel recordings last week, via Samplitude, writing to mono files which was shwing none of those spikes at no occasion.

This leaves me again a little clueless. Still I am thinking, that Bootcamp is not an optimum setup when trying two write those big interleaved files to disk. Could that be a reason? I can't tell, since I have no other than DC to record these big ones in one stream.

Still any hints on checking out more to get deeper into this topic are more then welcome.

Best Regards
Boris

8

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

We have a new version coming up with lots of further improvements to the DC Record function. This one adresses lots of your feedback. Nevertheless - on a really screwed machine we are still able to write recordings error-free to slow and outdated USB sticks. The bursts you describe must be something really severe in your system, clearly indicated by the red HD and time indicastor.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Seems like I will crosscheck using the current beta with a different setup, i.e. internal MBP drive, external FW 800 and 400 drive, and last with a Vaio AR-series laptop. After that going on to the next beta ;-) and then someday I will find out and report.

Regards
Boris

10

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Beta 5 can now be downloaded. Please try this one also with your HFS+ volume!

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Have already downloaded rc 5 :-)

I will do a test run with both harddisk configurations, NTFS and HFS+, during this afternoon.
Additionally I will do a comparision with the Vaio AR-S setup I have been using before I was setting up MPB Bootcamp, using again both external harddisk configurations - no internal, since the internal RAID with the Vaio is plainly unbeatable :-)

You can expect some report on these latest tomorrow. Thanks!

Best Regards
Boris Vogeler

12 (edited by bvogeler 2008-10-04 00:32:48)

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Did several checks yesterday, and there was shown basically one difference when using rc 5 with my MBP/Bootcamp setup:

Tried recording 20 input channels recording to NTFS and to HFS+ (got the warning message with the latter) with Latency Checker showing no big differnce between the two.

Tried the same with Samplitude recording in parallel to a differnt hard disk in the background.

And I tried again with two instances of Global Record in parallel.

In all cases I got the time indicator going red, I do blame solely Bootcamp for this by now, since this never happens on the Vaio setup, no matter what I write to.

The one interesting difference is that the HD indicator only went red one time, when using the two instances of Global Record, which is not really a surprise, since you can not choose two different output hard disks in System Settings of DC.

The more interesting one is: In all recorded files, which had a red Time indicator shown, I checked, and I could not find any peaks of boosted level with those two according hick ups following.

I will cross check all these tests with the Vaio setup today.

Yesterdays experience brings up two feauture requests, which could be of value for the recording process.

1. Being able two choose two or more independant HD targets for two instances of Global Record. This comes in very handy if you need to hand out a rough mix of all recorded channels in a stereo file in parallel to the multichannel record, without the necessity two split it all up beforehand. I would simply love it.
2. A preroll buffer like it is present in several boom recording applications. Being able two jump in recording a session, lets say up to 20 seconds late and never miss the first notes of a recording again. I loved this feature with Boom Recorder.

I will be going on with the test today, to see if those level peaks show up again.

Thanks a lot for all!

Regards
Boris Vogeler

13

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

It is not useful to start GR two times, asd the second instance will negatively affect the first GR.

Hard Drive problems are indicated by a red color in the HD Load field. A red color in the Time field shows missed ASIO buffers. This can be caused by system events like maximizing/minimizing windows with animated windows active. And others. I am pretty sure that you have some wrong information in the file which is not so obvious anymore as we fixed the interleave out-of-sync problem.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: DC 5 Beta 4 saving partly unusable mono waves

Two instances was for hardcore testing only.

I will check for those less obvious signs of ASIO dropouts by recording sine waves only. There is really nothing going on during recording, except from recording, of course I can't say what bootcamp is doing on a lower level here.

The Vaio setup test didn't bring up any of those issues until now. I will however check there too for signs of drop outs by recording sine waves into DC. Though if the red indicator stands for those occuring, there shouldn't be any present.

I will report if something new is coming up. Thanks!

Regards
Boris Vogeler