Topic: Clocking Questions

I have 6 devices all needing to be sync’d as slaves. They all have word clock. If I have an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE connected by AES to a Fireface UFX (version 1) and set ADI to be clock master, if I then use UFX word clock output to pass sync to further devices, what clock would the UFX word clock output be carrying?

Would it be the same unchanged “FS” clock that the UFX is sync’d to or would it be a clock that has been interacted with by the Steady Clock technology built into the UFX?

Next question is what does everyone think about word clock termination and using “T” adapters? Is it only the first and last device in the chain that are meant to be terminated which seems to be the most common view along with T adapters not being suitable, but there does seem to be companies that have other views < https://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/a … bution>

SO what do you all think? Is termination only for first and last in chain or not?

Are T adapters OK to use? If you think “T” adapters are OK, what do you think about having multiple devices (4 of 6) where termination can’t be disabled? Does using the T adapters somehow make the wiring parallel rather than in series?

Kind regards

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

2 (edited by vinark 2023-06-29 13:03:00)

Re: Clocking Questions

FS and normal steadyclock are only doing something in slave mode! So it is best to have the ufx as master and the ADI as slave, then both will have the best clock possible. In master mode the ufx clock is great as most devices are. If possible clock as many devices as possible directly from the ufx or adi, with aes, spdif or adat. With the ufx as master your adi will use FS and send out a perfect clock.
Sorry I never use complicates WC setups

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

3 (edited by oli77sch 2023-06-29 13:58:17)

Re: Clocking Questions

vinark wrote:

FS and normal steadyclock are only doing something in slave mode!

Sorry to correct you, but it’s not like that.
A device with steadyclock (FS) uses it also internally. Otherwise it would be sort of a joke.
Having digital audio signals reaching a slaved RME interface, steadyclock (FS) can 'clean' it from jitter. As master device it sends out audio signals with the same accuracy.
I highly recommend to read this full article:
https://www.rme-audio.de/steadyclock-fs.html

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Clocking Questions

In this case it is not ok to disagree I think so....@MC.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Clocking Questions

The SteadyClock technology of RME's latest products guarantees an excellent performance in all clock modes. Its highly efficient jitter suppression refreshes and cleans up any clock signal, and provides the clock signal as reference clock at the word clock output. At the same time, analog conversion is performed on a guarateed level of highest quality, completely independent from the kind and quality of the used reference clock. The cleaned and jitter-freed clock signal can be used as reference clock in any application. And the quality of the external (input) clock doesn't matter anymore.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

6 (edited by ramses 2023-06-29 14:59:03)

Re: Clocking Questions

A few weeks ago I asked, how D/A conversion is being performed on the 12Mic as clock slave of an UFX+ via MADI.

UFX+-------------MADI------------12Mic---DA-->Phones

I wanted to know, whether the final D/A conversion would be performed on the 12Mic by its own FS clock.
Answer was no, this is only a special feature of ADI-2 DAC/Pro FS.
So the 12Mic gets the clock signal as slave from the UFX+ as master, uses SteadyClock FS to suppress/eliminate any potential clock jitter and then using this refreshed clock signal for its own D/A conversion.
So .. the internal FS clock is not used for the conversion as I understood it, but SteadyClock FS uses the FS quartz to perform an even more efficient jitter elemination.

So .. SteadyClock and SteadyClock FS are the same jitter suppression technologies of RME, where the FS version delivers a higher jitter suppression (because of the more accurate FS clock I assume).

A typical RME device as clock slave (with Steadyclock [FS]) eliminates jitter from any clock signal and the refreshed clock signal will be sent out any digital output and Word Clock output. If the RME device has FS clock then the suppression of jitter is even higher.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

7 (edited by ramses 2023-06-29 15:07:42)

Re: Clocking Questions

So .. in Pauls setup my understanding is ...

The UFX is clock slave to ADI-2 Pro and gets clock signal via AES IN.
SteadyClock on the UFX will perform a jitter suppression of the clock signal from the ADI-2 Pro FS which is already accurate due to FS clock. If there would be any clock jitter then SteadyClock (no FS here) would eliminate it.

So I think at this point SteadyClock will perform the jitter suppression based on his "normal" clock, which is "fine enough", but has no FS quality. Differences not audible, but measurable like with the ADI-2 Pro vs FS version.

This refreshed clock signal (by normal SteadyClock using the normal clock of the UFX) will be further propagated through any digital output of the UFX and the WC output.

This is my understanding.

So .. in theory it would be the same if UFX would become clock master.
And the ADI-2 Pro FS would perform after SteadyClock FS processing the D/A conversion by using its own FS clock.
All clock slaves getting clock from UFX via WC would get it in the quality of the clock from the UFX
- if UFX is slave of ADI-2 Pro clock signal is refreshed / jitter suppressed by SteadyClock using its own non-FS clock
- if UFX is master, then clock comes also from his own non-FS clock

This is my understanding, but I might be wrong :-)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Clocking Questions

Thanks for the thoughtful answers Guys.

So it seems that my hope of distributing RME’s FS clock throughout my studio is not possible because every device with Steady Clock regenerates the clock before passing on using that device’s clock’s best resolution. I’ve just heard back from Cranborne Audio and their devices 500Adat & 500R8 do the same clock regenration thing. In a way this will simplify my cabling since I can sync most of my studio via the digital connections - AES, Adat and MADI. I will still gain a benefit of keeping my ADI-2 Pro FS R as master since it’s the converters for my control room monitors and also for single and 2 channel recording.

I’ve been running this setup for some years but feel like I’m finally getting some details about what’s really going on. Next learning project is to get to the bottom of the 8Khz, 16Khz, 24Khz, 32Khz etc static tones caused I think by USB earthing problems. For another post…

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: Clocking Questions

Is an upgrade from UFX to UFX III (with FS clock) possible if this is your desire?

Although, remember the discussions about FS vs non-FS versions of ADI-2 Pro. There was something like a consensus, that FS clock doesn't deliver better sound. Some better measurement values.

Consider .. digital recording has already successfully been performed, when FS clocks were not yet available (or at the beginning too expensive to implement).

But as I mentioned, if this is of importance for you and be it "to be on the safe side", well then I would upgrade to UFX III.
You will definitively still get a good price for your UFX on used market to cross finance it.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Clocking Questions

paulnajar wrote:

Thanks for the thoughtful answers Guys.

So it seems that my hope of distributing RME’s FS clock throughout my studio is not possible because every device with Steady Clock regenerates the clock before passing on using that device’s clock’s best resolution.…

I can’t imagine one of the involved devices (in your case the UFX) making the clock 'worse' from input (receiving FS clock) to output. But I don’t have enough technical knowledge to understand it really.
The other thing is: there are thousands of well made, high quality digital recordings on this world, made long before steadyclock FS was born. Of course technical progression is important, but I also like to put things in perspective a bit (same thoughts I often have while discussions about this sooo important 32bit floating point feature in audio recorders)…

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Clocking Questions

ramses wrote:

Is an upgrade from UFX to UFX III (with FS clock) possible if this is your desire?

Although, remember the discussions about FS vs non-FS versions of ADI-2 Pro. There was something like a consensus, that FS clock doesn't deliver better sound. Some better measurement values.

Consider .. digital recording has already successfully been performed, when FS clocks were not yet available (or at the beginning too expensive to implement).

But as I mentioned, if this is of importance for you and be it "to be on the safe side", well then I would upgrade to UFX III.
You will definitively still get a good price for your UFX on used market to cross finance it.

Interesting points Ramses and yes the UFX iii would solve quite a few problems and simplify a few things for sure. I’m learning to relax about the clocking issue in general but still just trying to achieve the best performance with the gear I have.

I’ve never fully stated my whole digital setup in this thread so here it is at present.

Main Audio IO passing audio to/ from computer is Madiface USB connected to ADI 648 mostly running at 96Khz. This is then connected to 3 x Cranborne Audio 500Adat racks which are my main multichannel converters giving 24 analog in and out. The final 2 adat ports on the ADI 648 are connected to the previously mentioned UFX version 1 and I use it’s AES connections to feed in/ out the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE giving me a total of 32 IO and provides additional IO mainly for headphone mixes.

The UFX 3 is a decent simplification solution but I’m also tempted )dreaming) by whatever RME come up with to replace the PCIe HDSPe MADI FX. It’s way more channels that I would ever need but it’s FX - eq in particular is appealing for me to achieve some speaker tuning. I’m ultimately hoping RME will add more speaker calibration features like delays and more eq bands to Totalmix as I already have a 7.1.4 speaker system in addition to stereo that works well but getting it all tuned via various DSP stages in Logic and then in Totalmix does all I need but it’s more complex that I would like.

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

12

Re: Clocking Questions

paulnajar wrote:

Next question is what does everyone think about word clock termination and using “T” adapters? Is it only the first and last device in the chain that are meant to be terminated which seems to be the most common view along with T adapters

If you daisy-chain ONLY the last unit gets termination, never the first.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME