Topic: UFX+ clocking issue / ticks at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz using external HW

Hello, I am having an issue with clocking on my 2 year old RME UFX+ that I have never experienced before when using external audio hardware on the line inputs / outputs, either as Hardware Inserts in Pro Tools or as regular inputs/outputs.

The clocking issue only occurs at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz and does not occur at 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz.

I have uploaded screenshots (from WaveLab) of the waveforms in question zoomed in at all of the described sample rates: https://imgur.com/a/CzVmibq

I have tried all buffer speeds, updated drivers, updated firmware, changed line inputs & outputs and all cabling to and from the UFX+ with the hardware in question with no luck.

There are inaudible "ticks" 8ms apart when using external hardware in the line in / line out on the RME unit.

Clocking the UFX+ to an external unit (Ferrofish Pulse 16 MX over MADI) rather than Internal does not change this and actually makes the waveform of the "ticks" louder.  Using the Ferrofish Pulse 16 MX as the in / out for the hardware unit instead of the UFX+ Line ins and outs doesn't make a difference.

Again, this is ONLY when using external hardware as a Hardware Insert or input/output at 88.2 kHz or 96 kHz and does not occur at 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz.

I should also note that I am trying to use a stereo tube compressor (dual STA Level clone), although it appears to be happening with any input / output and as mentioned, was never an issue before and is not an issue with this STA Level unit at 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz.

Thank you very much!

2

Re: UFX+ clocking issue / ticks at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz using external HW

This needs more detective work to isolate the culprit.

- a simple loopback cable analog out to in on the UFX+ only - does that cause it?

If not then ADC and DAC section seem to be ok.

- a simple loopback on the MADI I/O on the UFX+ - does that cause it?

I would say it's impossible to get USB packet noise this way, so the digital I/O would be ok.

Any external hardware can cause a ground loop. Maybe that is what intrpduces the USB packet noise here.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

3 (edited by zachxweeks 2024-05-01 20:10:57)

Re: UFX+ clocking issue / ticks at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz using external HW

Sorry for bringing back an ancient thread. 

So for a while I thought it was maybe isolated to the single piece of gear I was using and avoided using that piece of gear as a HW insert, but now I am doing some further testing and it is showing up on ALL of my outboard gear... every single piece -- I just never noticed it as much in the past and for whatever reason, it is much louder on the one piece of gear aforementioned. Have to really zoom in on the waveform to see it  elsewhere.

I tried patching in a loopback cable on all ins and outs on my UFX+ -- no ticks there. It also doesn't show up when patching a passive 600:600 transformer in between the UFX+ ins and outs (through patchbay)

Again, only at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz, and not 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz at all.

Should also note that the noise also appears with nothing plugged in to the input of the gear (from the RME Line Outs or elsewhere), and doesn't go away if patching things like isolation transformers between the output of the gear and the RME Line Input.

As a result, I am lead to believe this is not an ADC or DAC issue and still some sort of "packet noise"....

The ticks show up when the unit is connected via USB and also when connected via Thunderbolt BUT the ticking over Thunderbolt is *slightly* lower noise than over USB.

I should also note that changing the buffer size DOES affect the spacing of the ticks. Setting it around 64 samples or 128 samples is roughly 770~ measured samples in between ticks where as 1024 or higher is around 820~ measured samples between ticks.

Here's an image of a recording in Izotope RX. This one is actually worse, with the ticks extend down to 12khz:
https://i.imgur.com/Lhjk6BO.jpeg

And this is the initial piece of gear, again. The ticks extend from 48khz (limit) down to around 20.5khz:
https://i.imgur.com/yaf7OF2.jpeg

if I really turn up the gain on a compressor chain, it'll extend all the way down to 8khz. THIS particular screenshot is with the Line Output from the RME going into the first piece of gear and then output of the last piece of gear returning to the RME Line Input. Disconnecting inputs from the first piece of gear dramatically lowers the noise, but same ticking is still present on the waveform:
https://i.imgur.com/pKn0gMV.jpeg

I tried pulling every single USB peripheral out of my computer other than the UFX+ (and my iLok so I can run Pro Tools) and recording that -- no change. Tried UFX+ on a every different USB port / bus on my computer -- no change.

Have tried the UFX+ and the computer on different power outlets, even different circuits in the circuit breaker. Different line conditioners, no line conditioners, surge strips, etc... even plugged the UFX+ (and likewise computer) over long extension cables into completely different rooms... no change, still ticking. (though moving the UFX+ over to a higher end Tripp Lite line conditioner lowered the noise floor...)


]Tried an entirely different patchbay, cables, and likewise running the gear directly in and out of the UFX+ line ins/outs without any patchbay in between -- no change.


And again, still occurs using the I/O of my Ferrofish Pulse 16 MX in the same configuration, and when clocking the RME UFX+ to the Ferrofish over MADI.

"Ticks" might not be the correct word to describe this, but not really sure what else to say about it.

4 (edited by zachxweeks 2024-05-01 20:05:07)

Re: UFX+ clocking issue / ticks at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz using external HW

Final note, as an aside -- I was able to significantly lower the noise floor of the input by switching my computer's power from a Furman PM8 II over to a Tripp Lite conditioner, and then lower the noise floor a little bit more by plugging the RME UFX+ into the same Tripp Lite. Ticking is still present, but at least that is a plus.

5 (edited by waedi 2024-05-01 20:16:13)

Re: UFX+ clocking issue / ticks at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz using external HW

Is there outboard gear digitally connected to the UFX ?
the first thought is "sample rate mismatch"...

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

6 (edited by zachxweeks 2024-05-01 22:07:05)

Re: UFX+ clocking issue / ticks at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz using external HW

waedi wrote:

Is there outboard gear digitally connected to the UFX ?
the first thought is "sample rate mismatch"...

No, no digital outboard, everything is analog and everything I've tried using does indeed have a linear power supply and not switch mode so switching noise isn't an issue.

The last thing I need to try is the same exact troubleshooting with the UFX+ on a different computer. Moving my computer power cable over to a Tripp Lite LC box made such a huge difference in noise (and the level of ticking) that I am curious if my computer's power supply or motherboard just suck?

I'm using a Windows desktop, but have a MacBook Pro I will try out. Curious to see if the problem persists there, and if the battery or plugged into the wall makes a difference.

I've seen some snake oil "USB line filter" devices targeted towards audiophiles. Not sure if these things really do much of anything, let alone in the audible frequency range...

7 (edited by vinark 2024-05-01 22:07:07)

Re: UFX+ clocking issue / ticks at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz using external HW

Did I understand correctly that an analogue loopback on the ufx does not have any clicks at all sample rates?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

8 (edited by zachxweeks 2024-05-01 23:08:37)

Re: UFX+ clocking issue / ticks at 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz using external HW

vinark wrote:

Did I understand correctly that an analogue loopback on the ufx does not have any clicks at all sample rates?

Yes that is correct, no ticking at 88.2khz or 96khz when physically patching a loopback from the RME line out to in, but ticking is present when any external gear is plugged into any of the RME Line Inputs (regardless of whether or not the external gear has any input connected) and ticking is usually visibly louder when connecting RME Line Out > outboard gear > RME Line In