YIKES! Sorry, I meant ADAT. Just corrected that.

Can this be configured in TotalMix as a single huge instance?

Hm for 12 channels at 96khz you need 3 adat ports. Does the ufx have those?
But it is much easier, under windows the 2 ufx show up as one asio device so all 24 channels are available. You do need 2 USB on different ports and get 2 tmfx, one for each ufx. Also you need one digital connection to sync them, but not for audio.

With all that information going from the 2nd UFX to the 1st, I'd hoped the 1st UFX would carry all the channels to the PC. But, if USB 2.0 isn't capable of 24 channels at 24/96, the 2nd UFX will need to be connected to the PC separately on a separate USB bus. Right?

I think that was a rhetorical question, of course the UFX doesn't have 3 ADAT ports.
I would go MADI. Only one unit and possibilities for expansion through MADI, ADAT, AES.

Thank you. This is very encouraging.

I'll order 4 Toslink cables and a 75 ohm BNC cable and give this a try. If I end up with 20 stable 24/96 channels I'll be sure to come back here and post all of my settings.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INPUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gary

How many channels when recording at 24/96?

The question was about using 2 UFX, not UFX+, not MADIface USB or Pro, not MADI. And only one UFX connected to USB. 70 channels apply only to the 2 mentioned interfaces, not this case.

I know. I was just pointing out the channel capacity over USB 2... And that this wouldn't likely be a limiting factor here.

No worries, all fine!

For eight (or even ten) additional channels it definitely works with the UFX, even at 96kHz. Two optical cables, both the optical outputs set to ADAT, proper routing in Totalmix and it should be fine. Then you could add two more channels over AES.
If the 'first' UFX should be master, a digital connection from this unit to the 'second' (standalone expansion) unit is needed, either ADAT, or AES or wordclock.

At 96kHz there are four channels available per cable.

For working at double speed (88.2/96 kHz) I would choose a MADI based setup.
UFX III as a base gives you already a solid basis of different port types and advanced features.
With MADI you have 32 I/O channels left for connecting Mic Pres and AD/DA converter.

You told already about selling the 2nd UFX; therefore I thought you are open to other solutions.

BTW .. You only talk about 20 channels but not of which type. Mic channels, analogue channels, inst channels?

The channels that you have directly on the device do not decrease and support all sample rates. So an UFX* is a good basement.

But I am worried about your requirement that you want to work at double speed.

Even with two ADAT I/O ports, you can only connect 8 more ports at double speed if you talk about UFX or UFX II.

Therefore, my advice, if your budget allows, go MADI. Sell the two UFX and get UFX III or a used UFX+.

It would be good to know, what type of channels you need and how many to see, what additional devices would be needed no matter if MADI based solution or not.

You still are not telling what types of channels you mean / need. There are different possibilities to record a live band.

1. Either you want to connect mics directly to the recording interface or an additionally connected mic preamp (via ADAT, MADI).

2. It could also be the case that you have a live mixer, where everything is connected to, and you are using its analogue cue out ports to record the signal from the live mixers inputs.

3. EDIT: or to connect other preamps, like in your case, which needs analog inputs (balanced). Although a Mic preamps could also be used as analog line input, the cost is higher, then better an AD converter where you get a higher port density.

Again the question, how many ports of which port-type do you require?
Do you only require analogue I/O or real Mic inputs with integrated Mic preamp? Or a mix of both.

2x Sytek MPX4Aii 4-channel mic preamps = 8x analog inputs, balanced (XLR to TRS cable)
1x Neve 5024 4-channel preamp = 4x analog inputs, balanced (XLR to TRS cable)
=> 12x analog I/O, balanced
8x Mic Inputs from UFX being used as microphone inputs, maybe a few of them as instrument input (TS) for bass or as analog input for keyboard.

The most cost efficient method is to use the two UFX, both connected via USB. You can use the two ADAT ports to create a cross connect to route 8 channels between the UFX and to distribute clock. You need to take care that both recording interfaces always use the same ASIO buffersize.

The advantage of this setup is, that with one ASIO driver you can access both devices and also the latency compensation will work fine because the two units are using the same AD/DA converters with the same converter latency.

You can use two TM FX instances and place them on screen as you prefer or use one instance and select the 1st or 2nd UFX.

     +-USB2---RME UFX#1-------4x Mic Inputs Front (1 as Instrument input (Hi-Z) for bass)
     |               ||         ||            8x Analog IN (TRS) for connecting Mic Preamps (2x Sytek MPX4Aii 4-ch)
PC+               || ADAT||            8x Analog Out free
     |               ||         ||
     +-USB2---RME UFX#2-------4x Mic Inputs Front
                                               4x Analog IN (TRS) for connecting Mic Preamps (1x  Neve 5024, 4_ch)
                                               2x Analog IN for keyboard
                                               2x Analog IN free
                                               8x Analog Out free
 
The two UFX require only 2-3 rack units.
I would choose 3 so that you have better airflow in a passive cooled case of 23 cm depth.

You can route all channels using the DAW (with the usual RTL), you need the cross connect via 2x ADAT ports (IN and OUT) to be able to route up to 8 channels at double speed if you need up to 8 channels from one device for submixes on the other devices. And for clock distribution to avoid an additional WC cable.

A MADI-based solution would be a bigger invest (cross financed by selling UFX) but more flexibilities
- any to any routing in one TM FX instance
- port reserves (also honouring double speed requirement)
- possibilities for further expansions

PC
|
| USB3
|
UFX III-----------------4x Mic Inputs Front (1 as Instrument input (Hi-Z) for bass)
|                               2x Analog IN for keyboard
| MADI                      6x Analog IN free for future demands
| (up to 2km)            8x Analog Out free
|
M-1610 Pro-----------4x Analog IN (TRS) for connecting Mic Preamp (Sytek MPX4Aii 4-ch)
                                4x Analog IN (TRS) for connecting Mic Preamp (Sytek MPX4Aii 4-ch)
                                4x Analog IN (TRS) for connecting Mic Preamp (1x Neve 5024, 4-ch)
                                4x Analog IN free

Clock synch through MADI.

Also two rack units, for better airflow better three, with the possibility to add either an additional M-1610 Pro for even more external preamps or an 12Mic to get 12 very nice transparent Mic inputs.

I only want to mention that MADI is the perfect multi-core to maybe place the M-1610 Pro closer to or on stage.
The MADI optical multimode fiber cable can be up to 2km long between each of the units, that you connect to MADI in a serial fashion ("from device to device").

PC with UFX III-------------------------------MADI----------------------M-1610 Pro on stage

The flexibility in length for a MADI cable might be an additional benefit for device placement and then maybe shorter cables between M-1610 on stage, preamps and Mics. You can get MADI patch cables of different length and which are not expensive. I would use the more modern OM4 cables which are sometimes even cheaper or have better availability compared to OM3 cables.

Additional advantage of the UFX III based solution with only one recording interface:
you can use DURec as backup recording and catch all relevant channels and have them together in one DURec file.
This would also be an advantage in terms of handling.

to 1)

clock master                                                                                                clock slave
clock source "internal"                                                                                 clock source ADAT1

                                                                      PC
   +-----------------------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
   |                                                                                                                    |
  USB2                                                                                                            USB2
   |                                                                                                                    |
UFX#1-----ADAT1---OUT--------------------------------------------->IN---ADAT1---UFX#2
UFX#1-----ADAT1---IN<---------------------------------------------OUT---ADAT1---UFX#2
UFX#1-----ADAT2---OUT--------------------------------------------->IN---ADAT2---UFX#2
UFX#1-----ADAT2---IN<---------------------------------------------OUT---ADAT2---UFX#2

So you need 4x TOSLINK cable which can be up to 10m long according to standards.
With RME TOSLINKs usually also 15m  work well up to 192 kHz.

to 2)

Correct, clock via ADAT. No Wordclock needed.

to 3)

If you have a small screen use one TM FX window and select the UFX#1 or UFX#2 as you need.
In the upper right corner there is a pulldown menue to select the recording interface if multiple interfaces by same or different ASIO driver are being detected. At times I had three interfaces in use 2x UFX and 1x RayDAT.

Sometimes it gives a better overview to place more than one TM FX window on the screen.
Then you can see / operate the most important channels by looking at the screen without having to switch.

See this screenshot of my Blog from a review about HDSPe MADI FX card and a connected UFX+. Left TM FX instance is the HDSPe MADI FX, Right TM FX instance is the UFX+ where DURec is being used for backup recording, as the HDSPe MADI FX doesn't support DURec:

Already pulled the trigger on the cables, but before going any further down this road I should at least consider replacing the whole rack (preamps and all, though I'd keep microphones, mic cables, and mic stand) with more suitable gear. With that in mind, here's what I hope will be my last question:

Assuming the sale yields $6000-$6500; if YOU had that much to spend in a rig built completely from scratch with the single purpose of recording your own live band which requires 20 simultaneous audio recording channels at 24/96 using 16 microphones (somehow connected via xlr) plus another 4 channels of direct input from keys and/or bass - all to be connected to a PC-based DAW via USB, what would end up in your rack?

I'm going to sink my teeth into your proposal and give it serious consideration. Thanks a million, ramses!

Gary

Ok I was not sure whether you want to keep or not and assumed keep.

Are you aware of, that the RME Mic Pres are of high quality and are working "transparent"?
Which means they capture the sound of the Mics in high quality "as is", but are not adding any Mojo or character to the sound.
Some people buy separate preamps and want to get a certain preamp sound additionally.
I, personally, prefer (like many other using RME products), that nothing becomes modified and to capture the original sound from the musicians and the mic being used.

Before you sell your old gear you should check, whether you like the results.

I think it would be best to contact a good seller and align with him to test drive UFX III, 12Mic and M-1610 Pro.
Then you can connect and test your Mics with the old preamps and with the UFX III and 12Mic.

A 12Mic based environment would look very similar:

PC---USB---ARC USB
|
| USB3 (optional: dedicated USB3 PCIe card with FL1100 chip)
|
|      +---------ADI-2 Pro FS R BE----AN1/2---Active Monitors
|      |                                         \----AN3/4---Headphones
|      | AES, ADAT or SPDIF
|      |
|      +
UFX III---------4x Mic Inputs in the front
|                               2x Analog IN for keyboard
|                               1x DI-Box for Bass
| MADI                      6x Analog IN free for future demands
| (up to 2km)            8x Analog Out free
|
12mic---------12x Mics

In total 4+12=16 Mic inputs // 2x Analog in for keyboards // 1x Analog In with DI-Box for Bass = 19 Ports

Maybe 1 Mic port missing in this solution?

Solution: You could add a 4-Port Mic Preamp to the UFX III still .. see below (++)

PC---USB---ARC USB
|
| USB3 (optional: dedicated USB3 PCIe card with FL1100 chip)
|
|      +---------ADI-2 Pro FS R BE----AN1/2---Active Monitors
|      |                                         \----AN3/4---Headphones
|      | AES, ADAT or SPDIF
|      |
|      +
UFX III---------3x Mic Inputs in the front
|                               1x Mic Input as Inst/Hi-Z for Bass
|                               4x Analog IN for Mic Preamp ++)
|                               2x Analog IN for keyboard
| MADI                      2x Analog IN free for future demands
| (up to 2km)            8x Analog Out free
|
12mic---------12x Mics

In total 3+4+12=19 Mic inputs // 2x Analog in for keyboards // 1x Mic input as Inst/Hi-Z for Bass = 22 Ports in total
Seems that we have now a few more mic inputs compared to your actual demand of 20 analog ports in total.

The Test installation would look like this

With this setup you can compare dedicated preamps vs RME solution.
The preamps of UFX III and 12Mic are very similar, but if you are getting 12Mic and M-1610 Pro,
then you can better decide which setup to keep and then you have only to send one device back and get money back.
But then you know exactly what you like most.

UFX III with M-1610 Pro, 12Mic and ARC USB = $2444 + $2333 + $2333 + $144 = $7254

Optional: including ADI-2 Pro FS R BE $1539 (for studio work) $7254 + 1539 = $8793

PC---USB---ARC USB
|
| USB3 (optional: dedicated USB3 PCIe card with FL1100 chip)
|
|      +---------ADI-2 Pro FS R BE----AN1/2---Active Monitors
|      |                                         \----AN3/4---Headphones
|      | AES, ADAT or SPDIF
|      |
|      +
UFX III------------------4x Mic Inputs Front (1 as Instrument input (Hi-Z) for bass)
|     |                           8x Analog IN and OUT
|     |                           2x Phones Out
|     |
|     + M-1610 Pro----16x Analog IN
|     |                           10x Analog OUT
^    |
|     + 12Mic------------12x Mic In (1-4 also useable as Inst/Hi-Z input)
|     |                           1x Phones output
|     MADI (*)
|     |
+---+

(*) MADI with OM4 multimode fibre
You see that the MADI devices are chained serial "one after the other". According to the standard, up to 2 km between each of the devices is allowed, patch cables are available from around 0.2m up to 60m).

Clock Master = UFX III, MADI devices are getting clock synchronized through MADI

Remote Control - RME COnnector

12Mic can be remote controlled through MADI (using RMEs "MIDI over MADI" feature)
by the RME Connector application, see screenshot below (in my setup together with Octamic XTC)
It's very nice to be able to store a few setups and to be able to reactivate them with by only one mouse click.
No additional MIDI cabling required, all remote control commands are being sent through the MADI cable using some unused bits in the MADI protocol header.

A few pictures of my setup you can see in this blog article.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … iii-en-de/

A few recording examples:

Here an overdub recording (mix of tube mic and SM57), my guitar on the right side.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … orrow-mp3/
(from this blog article: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … DURec-DE/)

Here an example of how a Gibson L5-CES sounds when plugged in straight into the Inst (Hi-Z) input of UFX+ (now UFX III).
No amp VST in use, pure guitar:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -320b-mp3/
(from this blog article: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … Ie-EN-DE/)

For the MADI cabling

Do not forget to order an SFP for 12Mic and M-1610 Pro (in total two)
https://www.rme-audio.de/de_sfp-module.html

Reason for RME using SFPs in some products, you as customer can decide, whether you want multimode (the default). In rare cases customer needed even longer cabling up to 10 km, then single mode could only be delivered by a special order. With the SFPs you can use multi-mode or single-mode as you need by simply replacing the SFP module.

For connecting the devices you need different types of Multi-Mode cables, because the devices use different plugs.
UFX III uses the larger SC connectors
12Mic and M-1610 use SFPs which need LC connectors

With the following two duplex cables you can create the necessary connections
https://www.cablesandkits.com/mc/fiber/ … /fp-11302/
https://www.cablesandkits.com/mc/fiber/ … /fp-10080/

UFX III--SC-----OM4-----LC--M-1610 Pro--LC-----OM4-----LC--12Mic--LC-----OM4-----SC--UFX III
Cables:           SC/LC                                         LC/LC                                LC/SC
                          #1                                              #2                                     #3

Recommendation: I would order spare cables to be on the safe side and one SFP, just in case one becomes damaged.

Careful with cheaper 3rd party SFPs, you need to look very closely that they support the same wavelength and have no special firmware for special devices. I didn't look closely and ordered the wrong one as well, shit happens

There were many improvements between UFX and UFX+/II, and additional between UFX+/II and UFX III.
I would recommend getting the UFX III with MADI if you can afford.

The differences are summarized in these two blog articles:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Entry/68-RME-UFX/
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … iii-en-de/

I also compiled an Excel Sheet containing a lot of information from manuals, forum, etc ... supports comparing interfaces.
See this sticky article: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=35156

Confirmed, this will be a nice setup that gives you another two nice headphone outputs of good quality.
You can configure the TM FX control room (Assign button) that Phones 1+2 are from the UFX III and Phones 3+4 are from the XTC.

For an easy setup, automatic assignment of a MADI ID and routing of channels I recommend that you use Auto-CA which included the automatic assignment of MADI ID (here "1) and then the routing of MADI channels is automatically provided, you will use MADI 1-8 for the device with the MADI ID 1.

When using an Octamic XTC via MADI, then you can configure it as a so called Auxdevice.

This means that the most important preamp settings can be remote controlled by TotalMix FX and these settings can be stored in TM FX snapshots and workspaces.

See this blog article, my 1st MADI setup with UFX+ and two Octamic XTC: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … cber-MADI/

Here you can see in the top row how nicely the Octamic XTC integrates into TM FX as Auxdevice like a channel strip.
You can see on the channel what you can remotely control:
- mono/stereo
- 48V Phantom Power
- PAD for the first 4 channels and Inst for the last 4 channels
- Gain
- Autoset

You're welcome Gary.

I really appreciate the follow up, ramses. And sincerely, thanks a million for all your help.

Remember if your computer fails at the 96khz, there is no real loss recording at 44 or 48khz.

I know, especially since it will be a LIVE recording with bleed everywhere. Just hoping to squeeze every drop of goodness from this band, but definitely prepared to flip the 24/48 switch. Thanks!