1 Topic by Dolphinado (edited by Dolphinado 2024-02-20 16:53:50)

  • Registered: 2024-02-12
  • Posts: 4

Topic: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

New RME user here, but not new to audio interfaces – I've found it sort of unusual and unintuitive that Totalmix and Fireface USB Settings are installed as separate apps. (I'm on macOS Sonoma FWIW.) Every other audio interface I've used and seen rolls their interface settings and mixer into a single application, and lets you manage both from one place.

I don't think you necessarily have to build custom UI in Totalmix to handle what Fireface USB Settings does either, but rather:

  • bundle the Fireface USB Settings executable inside the Totalmix app bundle alongside the Totalmix executable

  • add an app-level menu item to Totalmix to launch the bundled Fireface USB Settings executable

This question is somewhat inspired by another audio company that used to ship separate apps for its desktop editor and its device management for its whole existence (Fractal's Axe Edit / FM# Edit and FractalBot), but in the past year or so shifted to bundling both executables together for a much more elegant user experience.

I can totally appreciate that there might be historical reasons why this separation exists, but does there still need to be this separation in 2024?

It's not a huge deal to be clear, but I was curious.

Thanks for everything you do!

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-21 06:44:59)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,171

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

With a little thought, you could figure it out.

TotalMix FX is the digital mixer (an application) focused on audio flow, routing/mixing.

The "driver settings" (the name tells it already) refer to the driver. Hardware settings on the device, transmission protocols for I/O ports, clocking, WDM devices.

Additional note why it makes additional sense to separate it: some devices do not have TotalMix FX, but require a driver for communication via USB or for firmware updates (OctaMic XTC, ADI-2 DAC/Pro, ADI-2/4 Pro SE).

TotalMix FX is installed together with the ASIO driver.
For the sake of speed, newer versions of TotalMix FX will be made available via the forum until RME has the time and opportunity to "bundle" a newer TM FX version with the driver.

But considered separately, they are two different things with their own fixed areas of responsibility / boundaries.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)With a little thought you could figure it out.

TotalMix FX is the digital mixer (an application).

The driver settings refer to the driver. Hardware settings on the device, transmission protocols for I/O ports, clocking, WDM devices.

Some devices do not have TotalMix FX, but require a driver for communication via USB or for firmware updates (Octamic XTC, ADI-2 DAC/Pro, ADI-2/4 Pro SE).

TotalMix FX is installed together with the ASIO driver.
For the sake of speed, newer versions of TotalMix FX will be made available via the forum until RME has the time and opportunity to "bundle" a newer TM FX version with the driver.

But considered separately, they are two different things with their own fixed areas of responsibility / boundaries.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,671

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

Old user here lol, but if you had more experience with rme, you would not ask this, you are maybe the first to ask this in 20 years, lol.
But if you start working you might realise you have days you need one of them,like the USB settings to raise the buffer size, or other days you need the mixer a lot, I also have days, lots, that I need neither.
Cheers!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,016

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

To be honest, I also asked myself exactly this question several times.
And sorry ramses and vinark, your explanations don’t make sense to me.
Both applications, TotalMix and settings, control certain functions on the interface itself. And both these applications are adaptive to the connected hardware units. So both they are interacting directly with the hardware.
After working some years with the Fireface400 (bought in 2009), which has much more functions to set over 'Fireface settings' than newer devices, I was surprised to find mic and line/inst. input gains now for the Babyface pro (bought in 2016) in TotalMix. And I asked myself, why clock / sync settings and some other things still have their own app…

FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-21 08:20:05)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,171

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

As I mentioned before, there are devices with ASIO drivers but without TotalMix FX. Why should TotalMix FX be included in such cases when only the driver and its settings are necessary?

A clean separation between hardware-level settings and routing/metering also makes sense in terms of a clean programming approach. We all love the efficiency of RME driver and applications, don't we?

I also see a clear alignment between driver settings and the driver itself in terms of the topic. These should remain small, efficient programs. TotalMix FX and the driver should be installable and upgradeable independently of each other.
So it is also to the advantage of users, as any pending changes in TM FX wouldn't block the releasing of driver updates and vice versa if you split it accurately like RME does.

I am a big fan of such layered approaches also in the software design. A monolithic, bloated program would be a poor programming style and difficult to maintain. There are already enough differences at the hardware/driver level, even within a driver family (USB, MADIface, FireWire, Thunderbolt). Such additional complexity would make the maintenance of TotalMix FX unnecessarily harder.

Having to recompile the whole TM FX application on every change in the driver settings and vice versa would also be a big waste of compile- and, at the end, programmer's time.

Even the troubleshooting process is much easier if you know that you only changed TM FX or something in the driver settings. If the one thing didn't change, then it is easier to identify where the error much likely is.

Moreover, cleaner in terms of the interfacing between TM FX and access through the driver over defined ports or APIs.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

6 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2024-02-21 11:36:20)

  • waedi
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Swiss Zürich
  • Registered: 2020-12-08
  • Posts: 3,519

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

I agree with post 4.
I would not go as far and request it, but if it would be available I would choose it, Totalmix combo, menu Options / Fireface Settings Dialog, all-in-one.

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-21 11:51:35)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,171

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

Ok, so you wouldn't mind, for example, getting TotalMix FX with an ADI-2 Pro to make a few adjustments in the driver, but otherwise not being able to use 98% of TotalMix FX?
Would you also not mind that changes in the settings dialog for drivers are delayed because changes are still being made in TotalMix FX and vice versa?
You also don't mind losing the view of TotalMix FX to change something in the settings? Or obstructing the view of the desktop because TotalMix FX is a larger window than the small Settings dialog at the bottom right of the screen?
In short: as already mentioned, this would be a significant deterioration, especially on the customer side, both in terms of provision and handling.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2024-02-21 12:04:48)

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,671

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

100% agree Ramses, but honestly I am nor afraid this will ever be implemented. I was just replying so the OP could let this idea go, not for us but for him. I would expect that he/she would listen to the more experienced RME users, who have used this for a long time and see the many advantages, but allas.
But still it would probably be very easy to add a menu entry in TMFX to open the settings app, just like the other TMFX settings.
Just as long as the separate app remains.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • Registered: 2019-11-06
  • Posts: 140

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

Personally, I really dislike having the settings in a completely separate app. However, I can’t see this situation ever changing.

10 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-21 15:37:51)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,171

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

Maddcow wrote:

Personally, I really dislike having the settings in a completely separate app. However, I can’t see this situation ever changing.

Can you explain the specific advantages of this?
What is the problem for you now, as it is, what "issue" do you want to solve?

Perhaps you should start there first, because you don't just change something which is proven
and what everybody knows since over 25 years without a good reason.

BTW, did you read and understand the negative aspects that I pointed out?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2019-11-06
  • Posts: 140

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

Ramses, I disagree with you and I'm ok with that.  Nothing else needs to be said because RME aren't going to change anything anyway, so any further debate is pointless.

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,016

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

My dream:
(Well knowing lots of work would be needed and maybe there would be some negative aspects…).
Connecting an RME device the first time to the computer after buying it lets automatically open a small alert window.
„Welcome to RME sound world … you need a driver for your device, download current version now?“ … if yes, the matching software loads. This new TotalMix (one app including 'hardware settings') automatically checks the firmware on the connected device. If there is a mismatch, it shows an alert as well as a direct download and install button.
How many thousand times there were issues reported which had all the same reason behind: mismatch of driver / Totalmix and firmware. In my dream there is a list of needed (matching) firmware implemented in Totalmix. Detecting an older version on the connected interface lets pop up the alert. No need to find it out over google search, RME support or this forum here. No more misunderstandings and people mixing up driver and firmware version numbers. And just the right thing when someone buys a 2nd hand unit.
The included 'hardware settings' could simply  be a window exactly as it is now. But not a separate application, but only a new menu in Totalmix which lets open the small window exactly as the Totalmix settings windows. Of course for devices without Totalmix - ADI series - there would be needed another software download. Same driver code included in this two different packages… in my dream that works perfectly!

FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

13 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2024-02-22 10:53:49)

  • waedi
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Swiss Zürich
  • Registered: 2020-12-08
  • Posts: 3,519

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

+1 all in one solution with auto check.
Can I be also in your dream ?
We all ?
In your house ?
you are cooking gurmet dinner for the entire forum, USB noodles, ASIO-soup, flat-latency-filet and Buffer-Knödel.

The new all-in-one auto-check technology shall be patentet and all the others have to pay huge license fee to RME for using it, Sony, Samsung, Apple, microsoft, etc... !

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,016

Re: Why are Fireface USB Settings and TotalMix FX separate apps?

waedi wrote:

you are cooking gurmet dinner for the entire forum, USB noodles, ASIO-soup, flat-latency-filet and Buffer-Knödel.

lol lol

FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2