1 (edited by oraya 2024-02-23 15:46:35)

Topic: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

Hello guys,
I am new in the group and working with an UCXii since a few weeks.
I make instrumental ambient music which involves a full recording of my instruments in ableton mainly with mics.
I am experiencing a little delay when recording via mics (a couple of ms) which I don't feel in my headphones but it is clear when I play it back in the mix. To be sure it wasn't caused by some plugin or vst in ableton, I started a fresh project with only the stereo channel to record, but the issue persisted.
I use 64samples - 48000

In Total Mix I am using an active direct monitoring to avoid using the one from ableton but it didn't improve the situation.
Is anyone else ecperiencing the same issue?
It's a pity because I have invested in this audiocard mainly for its latency performance and it is really not doing any better than my previous Audient.

I would appreciate any adivce!
Thanks a lot

Oraya

2 (edited by ramses 2024-02-23 15:52:14)

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

And your operating system is ... ?

If Windows:
- Which driver do you load in the DAW? The RME ASIO driver or a different Windows sound driver?
- Do you use per accident ASIO4ALL?

What input/output Latency does your DAW report?

Here, you can compare RTL (input and output latency incl AD/DA) with other RME solutions:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … cts-en-de/
These values are taken at 44.1 kHz …

Your RTL should approx be around 4.4ms.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

3 (edited by oraya 2024-02-23 16:23:13)

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

thanks for the quick answer and link!
I use Mac M2pro. Driver Type is CoreAudio
its a very powerful workstation which can handle big cpu pressure so I don't think there is any external plugin or factor causing the cpu to load latency...

my setup is:
Sample rate 48000
Buffer size 64 samples
I/ Latency 2.10 ms
O/ Latency 2.21 ms
Overall Latency 4.31ms

After reading in the link that rhe sample rate could improve the latency in recording, I tried to record at 96000 / 64 sample and metronome and it seems that it improved the latency a little... but it seems a lot to record at this rate when I will be loading many tracks, plug ins ecc....

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

...In Total Mix I am using an active direct monitoring,

A screenshot of this would be helpful.

When monitoring the input signal on an output channel in Totalmix, the latency is zero.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

5 (edited by ramses 2024-02-24 10:09:48)

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

oraya wrote:

thanks for the quick answer and link!
I use Mac M2pro. Driver Type is CoreAudio
its a very powerful workstation which can handle big cpu pressure so I don't think there is any external plugin or factor causing the cpu to load latency...

my setup is:
Sample rate 48000
Buffer size 64 samples
I/ Latency 2.10 ms
O/ Latency 2.21 ms
Overall Latency 4.31ms

After reading in the link that rhe sample rate could improve the latency in recording, I tried to record at 96000 / 64 sample and metronome and it seems that it improved the latency a little... but it seems a lot to record at this rate when I will be loading many tracks, plug ins ecc....

Converter Latency is much lower compared to the latency over USB/FW/TB. Nowadays, near zero.
Look at the manual, there is no merit in using double+ speed to optimize latency only for a tenth of a millisecond, right?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/chad40dxgq4yrouiu0ixz/2024-02-24-converter-latency-UCXII.jpg?rlkey=lerua9i0d99dbq7p55uhuwb9k&dl=1

Using a lower ASIO buffer size reduces latency much more, see my table in the posting above.

Regarding the use of double/quad speed, you should be aware of the following:

  • If I remember right, there are some VSTi which do not support double/quad speed because sample libs are missing for that speed.

  • You put more load on your system (double amount of data to process everywhere).

  • If you are working with external devices which are connected via ADAT, you have only half of the port capacity at double speed and only a quarter if you worked with quad speed (which is IMHO nonsense anyway). The port multiplexing does not happen with analog ports on your system or those which are 2ch based anyway (AES, SPDIF).

Tip: Check / Optimize your monitoring whether you route over DAW. Better route locally on the recording interface.

To show you how low latencies are, I made the following calculation comparing UFX+ to UFX III.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/chad40dxgq4yrouiu0ixz/2024-02-24-converter-latency-UCXII.jpg?rlkey=lerua9i0d99dbq7p55uhuwb9k&dl=1

When playing music life on stage, you have to deal with longer latencies.
9 samples difference in converter latency is only 6.7 cm (audio transmitted through the air)
20 samples difference in converter latency is only 15.4 cm (audio transmitted through the air)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

Yes, for multitrack recordings - doing overdubs - use direct monitoring in TotalMix as waedi writes. When you play rhythmically right to the playback tracks, Ableton should adjust the new track automatically to the right place. Most DAWs have this latency compensation, check this once in the settings. Maybe it’s disabled? In Logic pro it works perfectly fine, I can’t imagine why it should be an issue in Ableton.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

7 (edited by ramses 2024-02-24 11:50:19)

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

Yep, when playing to a backing track you start playing as soon as you hear it.
The latency for recording, what you play then is known to the DAW by the (ASIO | core Audio) driver.
It reports latency for A/D and D/A.
So the DAW can compensate.

For the submix of your headphones you need to take care to get
a) the backing track from the PC (via software playbacks, middle row)
b) your played instrument, e.g. a piano, directly from the HW inputs in near-real time
The actual recording of the played piano happens sample correct in the DAW due to latency compensation.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

ramses wrote:

…what you play then is known to the DAW by the ASIO driver...

Only to avoid confusion or misunderstandings: no ASIO on macOS, it’s core audio!

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

oli77sch wrote:
ramses wrote:

…what you play then is known to the DAW by the ASIO driver...

Only to avoid confusion or misunderstandings: no ASIO on macOS, it’s core audio!

True, but focus is on routing, same for Core Audio ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

10 (edited by oraya 2024-02-26 15:52:26)

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

waedi wrote:

...In Total Mix I am using an active direct monitoring,

A screenshot of this would be helpful.

When monitoring the input signal on an output channel in Totalmix, the latency is zero.

https://tinypic.host/images/2024/02/26/Screenshot-2024-02-26-at-09.51.43.png

This is how I am monitoring the recording in Total Mix. Is this the right way to do it so to have zero latency?

11 (edited by oraya 2024-02-26 16:54:05)

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

oli77sch wrote:

Yes, for multitrack recordings - doing overdubs - use direct monitoring in TotalMix as waedi writes. When you play rhythmically right to the playback tracks, Ableton should adjust the new track automatically to the right place. Most DAWs have this latency compensation, check this once in the settings. Maybe it’s disabled? In Logic pro it works perfectly fine, I can’t imagine why it should be an issue in Ableton.

https://i.ibb.co/g3FyNN7/grid.png
This is happening when recording a Djambe part. you can see the  main transients on 2 and 3 are out of sync.
I even tried to record from an empty prioject, only 1 channel with metronome but still same problem.

In Ableton I have delya compansation and reduced latency when monitoring activated

I am trying to understand the direct monitoring in total mix to have zero latency. My knowledge of RME's software routing are still limited so I appreciate your patient in guiding me through this process!

When recording in ableton live, I switch off the monitor on the channel that I am using and I turn up the faders of that specific channel in my total mix "first row" so I can listen what is coming in the mic directly in total mix. Is this called direct monitoring?

Also, the second row in total mix, I can only adjust the volume of channel 1/2 which is the playback software.

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

As far I can see, you do all correct in Totalmix. I assume a wrong latency correction value in Ableton. Can you check that in Ableton settings?

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

oraya wrote:

When monitoring the input signal on an output channel in Totalmix, the latency is zero.


This is how I am monitoring the recording in Total Mix. Is this the right way to do it so to have zero latency?

Yes.

But you not only have the two mics on the Phones, there is also two faders from the software playback channels up.
Pull down those fully and you will be able to listen the two microphones in your headphone with zero latency.
Without any other signal coming from any software with latency, as Oli told you.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

waedi wrote:
oraya wrote:

When monitoring the input signal on an output channel in Totalmix, the latency is zero.


This is how I am monitoring the recording in Total Mix. Is this the right way to do it so to have zero latency?

Yes.

But you not only have the two mics on the Phones, there is also two faders from the software playback channels up.
Pull down those fully and you will be able to listen the two microphones in your headphone with zero latency.
Without any other signal coming from any software with latency, as Oli told you.

Hm, but he uses the metronome from Ableton I think. So software playback channels are needed. But yes, the monitoring within Ableton has to be disabled for sure.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

waedi wrote:
oraya wrote:

When monitoring the input signal on an output channel in Totalmix, the latency is zero.


This is how I am monitoring the recording in Total Mix. Is this the right way to do it so to have zero latency?

Yes.

But you not only have the two mics on the Phones, there is also two faders from the software playback channels up.
Pull down those fully and you will be able to listen the two microphones in your headphone with zero latency.
Without any other signal coming from any software with latency, as Oli told you.

It is not possible for me to record an instrument in a song without listening what is coming out from ableton live. The solution must be somewhere else...

Did anyone ever experienced latency issue due to usb to C cable? A friend suggested me to try change the cable or use an usb HUB, or another port of the laptop as apparently Apple Silicons have had similar issues with other audiocards... I will try this

16 (edited by waedi 2024-02-27 02:25:35)

Re: Latency in recording (Ableton - UCXII)

The test suggested by me does not include recording.
It's only about listening to the mics without latency to make you understand how zero-latency-monitoring thru Totalmix is audible.
You can sort out parts of your system to the point where you understand from where the latency is produced.
it's not the USB-C cable.
For your recording, better don't monitor thru Totalmix, listen only the signal from the DAW, there is a latency but you will probably adopt to it during playing and the recording will be better.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue