1 (edited by Arkku 2024-03-30 13:04:23)

Topic: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

Hello,

I have the ADI-2/4 Pro, that I use as the DAC and preamp for headphones and active studio monitor speakers. The DAC mode works well for this since I can easily switch the source from the remote, and I've mapped one button toggle between phones and monitors.

However, the DAC mode doesn't seem optimal for the analog input: it seems I can't change the sample rate of the analog input other than by connecting USB and switching from there (if no USB is connected, it is still disabled in the menu?). I would also like to route the RIAA-corrected ADC signal to the digital outputs regardless of what is used for the analog outputs – the only choices for the digital output source are "Default' and "Main Out" - neither of these sounds like what I want, and the block diagram in the manual suggests that the digital output is processed with the line out 1/2 DSP settings.

I understand I could save another setup (e.g. AD/DA mode) and map a remote button to switch to it, but in AD/DA mode I can't change the analog output source with remote buttons, and I would need to spend another button for switching back to DAC mode. Auto mode also doesn't work because I need the manual switching, and USB is often connected for remote control even if I'm not using USB for playback.

Any thoughts about how to set this up? Are there some technical obstacles to why the digital output source can't be arbitrarily chosen like the analog output sources in many of the modes can? Or why AD/DA mode doesn't allow choosing the input from remote control buttons?

P. S. I'm overall very happy with this product, it uniquely does almost everything I want and with superb specs, and basis in science rather than hifi magic. So, even though my message sounds like critique, it's really just trying to figure out the last missing piece of getting from 99% to 100% perfection for my use. smile

2 (edited by KaiS 2024-03-30 18:16:25)

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

For technical reasons outside of RME’s scope, sample rate needs to follow USB when connected, no way around that.


To switch Modes with a single button:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 94#p193294


You can store and use a “Setup” for each “Mode” and complete configuration needed..

Loading certain “Setups” can be assigned to a button push on the device or IR Remote.


Watch out:
The  “Remap key” configuration is part of each individual “Setup” and needs to be set for each individual “Setup”.
This can be used to toggle through 2 or more Setups with one single button.


Works like this:
As the button assignment isn’t global, but part of each “Setup”, you can even have different assignments to the same button in each Setup - a nice feature that we can use for the following:

Choose ONE single button that you usually don’t need.
In Setup 1 assign: “load Setup 2”
In Setup 2 assign: “load Setup 1”
Now this single button toggles between both Setups.


This method can be extended to load even more Setups if needed, like:
In Setup 1 assign: “load Setup 2”
In Setup 2 assign: “load Setup 3”
In Setup 3 assign: “load Setup 4”
In Setup 4 assign: “load Setup 1”
Now the single button circles through Setup 1-4, clever, isn’t it?!


As for loading Setups ADI-2 asks for confirmation, a double-push is needed to execute the load.
Holding the button more than 1s, the button‘s original function is available.
Therefore I typically assign the SETUP button to load Setups – sic!

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

KaiS wrote:

For technical reasons outside of RME’s scope, sample rate needs to follow USB when connected, no way around that.

Fair enough, but the manual sample rate selection is disabled in DAC mode even when the USB host is offline, i.e., computer powered off. (I also tried just now with DAC mode, analog input selected, and USB cable disconnected - the sample rate selection is still grayed out in the device menu.)

With the computer on it's not a problem to change sample rate from there, but it seems unnecessary to have to turn on the computer just to change the ADC sample rate if it has been left at a "wrong" value after previous use with USB.

KaiS wrote:

The  “Remap key” configuration is part of each individual “Setup” and needs to be set for each individual “Setup”.
This can be used to toggle through 2 or more Setups with one single button.

Interesting, I did not realize this. But indeed, this makes the use of button remapping potentially suitable for this, as I could cycle between two setups with just the one button, thank you!

Still, it's a bit annoying that all changes to configuration have to be repeated again for every setup.

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

> Still, it's a bit annoying that all changes to configuration have to be repeated again for every setup.

You can save the setup to multiple config slots, then everything has equal config.
As a last step, modify config for only the toggling part and the particular changes that you want to achieve.

And … you have ADI-2 Remote additionally.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

5 (edited by KaiS 2024-03-30 20:52:16)

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

Arkku wrote:

…but the manual sample rate selection is disabled in DAC mode even when the USB host is offline, i.e., computer powered off. (I also tried just now with DAC mode, analog input selected, and USB cable disconnected - the sample rate selection is still grayed out in the device menu.

DAC-Mode is, on purpose, the most simplistic one, replicating RME ADI-2 DAC - therefore the name.

Manual page 46:
“…The AD conversion always uses the last set sample rate of USB…”

@MC:
I’d consider the greyed out SR select option with USB unplugged as unnecessary limitation too.
Even with SPDIF+SRC selected, a manual SR select options would be handy.
Saved presets should carry the SR information too.

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

KaiS wrote:

DAC-Mode is, on purpose, the most simplistic one, replicating RME ADI-2 DAC - therefore the name.

Manual page 46:
“…The AD conversion always uses the last set sample rate of USB…”

Yes, I read the manual and the different modes quite carefully, and decided the DAC mode is otherwise closest to what I want: I can use the IR remote buttons to switch between inputs (I have all of them connected) and I get the same output on both rear XLR and front headphones 3/4 (connected to studio monitors and headphones, respectively).

As I said in the original post, this is very close to the perfect device for me, just these two little annoyances: unable to set sample rate of the ADC manually in this mode if the computer is off, and unable to route the ADC signal to the digital output (independent of which input is used for DAC).

KaiS wrote:

@MC:
I’d consider the greyed out SR select option with USB unplugged as unnecessary limitation too.
Even with SPDIF+SRC selected, a manual SR select options would be handy.
Saved presets should carry the SR information too.

Ideally the selection would be available with USB host offline, even if the cable is plugged in, but yes, this is what I am asking for. (Also good point about including it for the SRC!) smile

ramses wrote:

You can save the setup to multiple config slots, then everything has equal config.
As a last step, modify config for only the toggling part and the particular changes that you want to achieve.

Yes, I understand how to do it, but it still means manually replicating the change as many times as there are setups, and then I have to remember what the exact differences in each setup are, etc. (My job nowadays as a software engineer consists mostly of reducing friction from user experiences, so I'm perhaps less willing than the "normal user" to accept these kinds of limitations, when I spend my days removing them from other software. But I appreciate the helpful responses, and of course I will use the solution if the suggestion for firmware improvement is not implemented.)

7 (edited by Kubrak 2024-03-31 13:22:58)

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

I agree with Ramses. IMHO presets do the job needed. And it is indeed simplification of user interface, as requested by OP. Adding more options to menus, needed by little fraction of users would make interface way more complex for the vast rest....

Presets do the trick for those with special needs. Yes it has a learning curve, but than make things way simpler and switching configurations fast.

And you may have a list, with what particular config does. If you do not rememger it.

8 (edited by Arkku 2024-03-31 14:07:30)

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

Kubrak wrote:

Presets do the trick for those with special needs. Yes it has a learning curve, but than make things way simpler and switching configurations fast.

Yes, I agree, presets do the job, but there are more steps for the user to do it this way. For example, let's say I always want the digital output to be the pre-volume ADC signal, but I want the analog outputs to work like in DAC mode:

Currently: It seems only the AD/DA mode does this routing of ADC to digital out, so I need to create a separate setup for every input signal that I want to monitor (AES, S/PDIF, analog). I can do that, and I can map those setups to the IR remote buttons so I can switch the monitoring. However, to make one little tweak in settings, I need to repeat it 3 times. Yes, doable, but seems unnecessary. (Additionally, USB monitoring on analog 1/2 outputs doesn't seem to be available in AD/DA mode, so I need an extra setup for that in a different mode, and I'm not sure if it is even possible to combine this with the ADC to digital output.)

Proposed change: There is an existing setting "Dig. Out Source". It has two options: "Default" and "Main Out". Add "Analog" to this menu (and why not also S/PDIF and AES?). Then I can use DAC mode, one Setup, simply choose "Analog" from the "Dig. Out Source".

I would argue that this is doesn't add any complexity to users who do not want this feature - the menu already exists, and the "Default" option that is currently there is arguably harder to understand (you need to check the manual for what it means in each basic mode).

(Alternative proposed change: make the DAC Source select buttons work in AD/DA mode as well - currently it just gives an error message saying that this only works in DAC mode, so it would not remove any functionality from other modes.)

Anyway, I'm not saying the current situation is bad: it can be done as per above, but IMO would be objectively improved by the proposed change.

The main thing I'd like to see is the ability to change the sample rate from the device menu when USB is offline. This option is currently present in the menu but grayed out.

9 (edited by ramses 2024-03-31 14:50:55)

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

The best solution might be a combination of recording interface with TotalMix FX and the ADI for the monitoring part.

See also my blog article about the integration of ADI-2 DAC/Pro into your recording setup:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/

Gives you most benefits in terms of
- TM FX for the parts: routing / operation / features
- ADI-2/4 Pro for "quality" and uniq features

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

10 (edited by Pervasive_Silicon 2024-04-01 17:24:57)

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

@Arkku
All you requests are spot on and are annoying limitations of the ADI-2 Pro
- no manual input selection by name of the digital output
- no manual SR selection for AES and SPIDIF to upsample these inputs
- input selection via remote control only possible in DAC mode

BTW: I do not use the USB input for sources at all due to its dominant SR behavior in AD/DA mode for all sources.
However if you want to use the ADI-2 remote app you have to connect the ADI-2 via USB with a computer, which reminds me to the 80‘s where you had to connect the remote control via cable with the tape deck!

ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

Pervasive_Silicon wrote:

However if you want to use the ADI-2 remote app you have to connect the ADI-2 via USB with a computer, which reminds me to the 80‘s where you had to connect the remote control via cable with the tape deck!

First the likes of you complained about the lack of a control software, now that RME brought you such software, you still complain that you have to connect the device to the computer in order to control it from the computer. Haters gonna hate.

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

unpluggged wrote:
Pervasive_Silicon wrote:

However if you want to use the ADI-2 remote app you have to connect the ADI-2 via USB with a computer, which reminds me to the 80‘s where you had to connect the remote control via cable with the tape deck!

First the likes of you complained about the lack of a control software, now that RME brought you such software, you still complain that you have to connect the device to the computer in order to control it from the computer. Haters gonna hate.

I think the penny didn't drop yet, that RME was so kind to the customers, to implement this via USB....

This way all customers can use the ADI-2 Remote software for all existing ADI-2 DAC/Pro, ADI-2/4 Pro SE products.
Everything by firmware update, for all devices and free of charge.

The alternative would have been to design new devices and to decide over which type of I/O the remote control should happen. This would raise additional requirements not only for the ADI, but also the computer.

So I think everybody is happy about not having to buy new devices to get such a feature.

This is btw the big advantage of RME devices … Long firmware and driver support … Additional value for customers.
Therefore, you have a certain stability in worth and get still good prices on the used market if you had to sell.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

13 (edited by Pervasive_Silicon 2024-04-01 19:52:19)

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

First of all I think that the ADI-2 Pro is a great device and I really appreciate the rich feature set!
However, if you use it in a non desktop setup where my listening position is about 6m away from my HiFi system then it would be great to remotely change from an analog to a digital source via the remote control.

If you want to changes more advanced settings the app is great.
Unfortunately, I cannot connect my iPad with a 6m USB cable across my living room, where my kids running around.
Hence, I would rather prefer to buy a new DAC than buying a new house ;-)

ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

Pervasive_Silicon wrote:

First of all I think that the ADI-2 Pro is a great device and I really appreciate the rich feature set!
However, if you use it in a non desktop setup where my listening position is about 6m away from my HiFi system then it would be great to remotely change from an analog to a digital source via the remote control.

If you want to changes more advanced settings the app is great.
Unfortunately, I cannot connect my iPad with a 6m USB cable across my living room, where my kids running around.
Hence, I would rather prefer to buy a new DAC than buying a new house ;-)

Well, but you don't need the remote control via ADI-2 Remote/USB all the time.
As soon as everything is set up, you can use the normal remote control (except for the older devices without remote).

Whether studio or hi-fi corner, I am using two devices here. I've been using the same settings for years.
All that I require is volume control and in rare cases an adjustment of Bass and Treble.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

unpluggged wrote:
Pervasive_Silicon wrote:

However if you want to use the ADI-2 remote app you have to connect the ADI-2 via USB with a computer, which reminds me to the 80‘s where you had to connect the remote control via cable with the tape deck!

First the likes of you complained about the lack of a control software, now that RME brought you such software, you still complain that you have to connect the device to the computer in order to control it from the computer. Haters gonna hate.

@unplugged
If you are part of RME, you should have also deleted your offensive post #11!
If not then RME should do so.

ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

I feel we are getting off-topic here, and at least I don't personally have a problem with the device in general (quite the opposite, it's 99% excellent for my use). However, these are indeed limitations that I think can be fixed by a firmware update:

Pervasive_Silicon wrote:

All you requests are spot on and are annoying limitations of the ADI-2 Pro
- no manual input selection by name of the digital output
- no manual SR selection for AES and SPIDIF to upsample these inputs
- input selection via remote control only possible in DAC mode

Especially the lack of SR selection from the device when USB is not in use was a surprise to me – the option is in the menu and I read the manual before purchasing and didn't think for a moment that sample rate selection would be disabled in the menu if USB is disconnected. For example, if the last time I've used USB it has been at 44.1 kHz for CD quality audio, and I want to use the RIAA mode I would like to change it to 192 kHz without starting the computer.

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

Pervasive_Silicon wrote:

@unplugged
If you are part of RME, you should have also deleted your offensive post #11!
If not then RME should do so.

Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go.

18 (edited by KaiS 2024-04-05 06:41:13)

Re: ADI-2/4 - analog input in DAC mode

Arkku wrote:

… if the last time I've used USB it has been at 44.1 kHz for CD quality audio, and I want to use the RIAA mode I would like to change it to 192 kHz without starting the computer.

At least this is possible by selecting another “Mode“ like “Preamp” (defaults to 192 kHz) or “AD DA Converter”.


So, currently there are two options to run a certain SR like 192 kHz:

• If USB is plugged in anyway, send/play a 192 kHz file.
That’s what I do, having an iPhone connected permanently.

• With no USB connection, select another “Mode” than “DAC”.


@MC:
I still vote for making SR switching possible in DAC-Mode when USB is unplugged and “Analog” input is selected.
With USB plugged this would be overridden anyway.

The logic would be like already existing in any other Mode than DAC.
Not much new to implement.