Topic: Hardware insert question

I use the TRS out 1/2 to monitor. If I want to do a hardware loop in my Daw (Wavelab) what's the best approach? In the manual it shows that I can set the PH Out 3/4 to "Balanced phones mode" and so use the front TRS jacks as balanced LINE outputs. Would you recommend this way, or can I just use the XLR 1/2 outs to send the same copied DAC signal (using then both XRL and TRS at the same time) though the outboard insert gear, as an insert in Wavelab?

Any difference in audio from the two different ways?

Appreciate it, thanks

Re: Hardware insert question

Please reveal what device it is.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Hardware insert question

waedi wrote:

Please reveal what device it is.

Sorry that was silly: ADI-2 Pro FS R

4 (edited by KaiS 2024-05-01 21:18:59)

Re: Hardware insert question

Use PH 3/4’s front TRS with fitting adapters as send, analog input as return.
Front TRS have identical audio quality to rear connections.

Do NOT activate Balanced Phones for this.


In USB-Mode / Class Compliant Multi-channel mode (manual page 39, 40) you can address each output individually from your DAW, to form an independent hardware send-return loop.

Channel 1/2 can stay your also independent monitor section.

5 (edited by MachineAgeVoodoo 2024-05-02 10:04:45)

Re: Hardware insert question

KaiS wrote:

Use PH 3/4’s front TRS with fitting adapters as send, analog input as return.
Front TRS have identical audio quality to rear connections.

Do NOT activate Balanced Phones for this.


In USB-Mode / Class Compliant Multi-channel mode (manual page 39, 40) you can address each output individually from your DAW, to form an independent hardware send-return loop.

Channel 1/2 can stay your also independent monitor section.

Thanks - But your reply is confusing me. I would avoid doing that because I need a balanced output, not only using 3/4 with a adapter.

Read excerpt from the manual (especially the last sentence)


"RME has a history of phones outputs working
perfectly as line outputs. The Extreme Power phones outputs of the ADI-2 Pro continue this legacy
by delivering exceptional performance with widest compatibility and versatility. For example turning on Balanced Phones mode, the two TRS jacks on the front perfectly serve as high-quality
TRS balanced line outputs."


Why can I not do what it says to do? I just want to get this functionality confirmed.

6 (edited by KaiS 2024-05-02 12:14:10)

Re: Hardware insert question

MachineAgeVoodoo wrote:
KaiS wrote:

Use PH 3/4’s front TRS with fitting adapters as send, analog input as return.
Front TRS have identical audio quality to rear connections.

Do NOT activate Balanced Phones for this.


In USB-Mode / Class Compliant Multi-channel mode (manual page 39, 40) you can address each output individually from your DAW, to form an independent hardware send-return loop.

Channel 1/2 can stay your also independent monitor section.

Thanks - But your reply is confusing me. I would avoid doing that because I need a balanced output, not only using 3/4 with a adapter.

Read excerpt from the manual (especially the last sentence)


"RME has a history of phones outputs working
perfectly as line outputs. The Extreme Power phones outputs of the ADI-2 Pro continue this legacy
by delivering exceptional performance with widest compatibility and versatility. For example turning on Balanced Phones mode, the two TRS jacks on the front perfectly serve as high-quality
TRS balanced line outputs."


Why can I not do what it says to do? I just want to get this functionality confirmed.

Because, on ADI-2 Pro, Balanced Phones Mode occupies and combines both channels 1/2 and 3/4 to generate the balanced ‘phones signal.

Balanced Phones Mode automatically mutes analog Rear connections because they wouldn’t deliver a sense-full signal.


if you really need (I doubt) an active balanced signal, it would be better to use the rear XLRs as send and PH 3/4 as monitor outputs.


Funny enough, using PH 3/4 with TRS to 2x XLRm adapters delivers a perfect impedance balanced signal, as the active/hot output is close to 0 Ohm impedance, as is the ground/cold connection.
Just make sure balanced cables are used throughout to get the full balanced advantage.



ADI-2/4 Pro SE offers the option for independent balanced outs of 1/2 (XLR, active balanced) and 3/4 (2x TRS, impedance balanced).
Plus, an active balanced 3/4 channel out on Pentaconn.

Admittedly, for your case it doesn’t make a difference.

7 (edited by MachineAgeVoodoo 2024-05-02 14:54:51)

Re: Hardware insert question

KaiS wrote:
MachineAgeVoodoo wrote:
KaiS wrote:

Use PH 3/4’s front TRS with fitting adapters as send, analog input as return.
Front TRS have identical audio quality to rear connections.

Do NOT activate Balanced Phones for this.


In USB-Mode / Class Compliant Multi-channel mode (manual page 39, 40) you can address each output individually from your DAW, to form an independent hardware send-return loop.

Channel 1/2 can stay your also independent monitor section.

Thanks - But your reply is confusing me. I would avoid doing that because I need a balanced output, not only using 3/4 with a adapter.

Read excerpt from the manual (especially the last sentence)


"RME has a history of phones outputs working
perfectly as line outputs. The Extreme Power phones outputs of the ADI-2 Pro continue this legacy
by delivering exceptional performance with widest compatibility and versatility. For example turning on Balanced Phones mode, the two TRS jacks on the front perfectly serve as high-quality
TRS balanced line outputs."


Why can I not do what it says to do? I just want to get this functionality confirmed.

Because, on ADI-2 Pro, Balanced Phones Mode occupies and combines both channels 1/2 and 3/4 to generate the balanced ‘phones signal.

Balanced Phones Mode automatically mutes analog Rear connections because they wouldn’t deliver a sense-full signal.


if you really need (I doubt) an active balanced signal, it would be better to use the rear XLRs as send and PH 3/4 as monitor outputs.


Funny enough, using PH 3/4 with TRS to 2x XLRm adapters delivers a perfect impedance balanced signal, as the active/hot output is close to 0 Ohm impedance, as is the ground/cold connection.
Just make sure balanced cables are used throughout to get the full balanced advantage.

I just want to make sure I am sending a balanced signal out with 3/4, why are doubting the need? I bought this AD/DA now for this purpose, which is to send a balanced stereo pair to monitors simultaneously as a balanced stereo paid to hardware insert in Wavelab, with the high quality AD on the way back in. I dont want to adapt a single TRS to 2x XLR because then I can't use my patchbay for the signal

8 (edited by KaiS 2024-05-02 19:10:55)

Re: Hardware insert question

You can connect whatever needed to the front TRS.
Balanced is not limited to XLR, it’s a interconnection principle.

As long as the cables are balanced all through you get an impedance balanced signal from PH3/4 that can be routed through a patchbay of course.


There’s a multitude of balanced audio output topologies.
To name a few:

• Impedance balanced.
• Active (electronically) differential balanced.
• Active differential balanced with automatic level matching when connected unbalanced.
• Transformer balanced.
• Transformer balanced with lifted ground.

They all achieve the same result if used in a studio environment.
The “balanced magic” happens at the receiver, not at the sender side.
The receiver cancels out the common mode noise that might have creeped into the signal.


Example:
All later AKG microphones successfully use the “impedance balanced” topology.
This on the very weak and vulnerable mic-level signals.


So what I proposed is completely reasonable.


Excerpt from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

A common misconception is that balanced audio requires the signal source to deliver equal waveforms of opposite polarity to the two signal conductors of the balanced line. However, many balanced devices actively drive only one side of the line, but do so at an impedance that is equal to the impedance of the non-driven side of the line. This impedance balance permits the balanced line receiver (input stage of the next device) to reject common-mode signals introduced to the two conductors by electromagnetic coupling.

9 (edited by MachineAgeVoodoo 2024-05-02 22:48:37)

Re: Hardware insert question

KaiS wrote:

You can connect whatever needed to the front TRS.
Balanced is not limited to XLR, it’s a interconnection principle.

As long as the cables are balanced all through you get an impedance balanced signal from PH3/4 that can be routed through a patchbay of course.


There’s a multitude of balanced audio output topologies.
To name a few:

• Impedance balanced.
• Active (electronically) differential balanced.
• Active differential balanced with automatic level matching when connected unbalanced.
• Transformer balanced.
• Transformer balanced with lifted ground.

They all achieve the same result if used in a studio environment.
The “balanced magic” happens at the receiver, not at the sender side.
The receiver cancels out the common mode noise that might have creeped into the signal.


Example:
All later AKG microphones successfully use the “impedance balanced” topology.
This on the very weak and vulnerable mic-level signals.


So what I proposed is completely reasonable.

I really appreciate staying on this topic with me. So in conclusion, in multichannel mode, there is no way to output channels 3,4 with a balanced transmission (pos/neg/ground) at the same time as outputting channels 1,2 on this box - I take it that this is correct?

6,35mm TRS to dual 6,35mm TRS - Never seen such a cable. If I use normal TS cables in my patchbay I get interference, no question about it

10 (edited by MachineAgeVoodoo 2024-05-02 23:26:27)

Re: Hardware insert question

I have the solution (should anyone be reading in the future) - I will simply use the duplicated signal Out 1/2 DAC from the back of the unit for the Send, and route the return for monitoring and recording using que mixes inside DAW instead, that way everything stays balanced and I will never touch Phones 3/4 smile

Thanks a great deal for you time, and I will try both ways

11 (edited by KaiS 2024-05-03 00:46:09)

Re: Hardware insert question

I’d consider using 1/2 as send AND for monitoring at the same time unhandy.


You’re stuck with the idea that balanced only exists as:

active hot, active cold, ground.
That’s not true.

Please re-read my comprehensive posting, and the Wikipedia quote.


Cable:
This is not an off-the-shelve cable.
But- every musicians store with a tech is capable to make a cable fitting your special purpose, for a reasonable price:

TRS L/R channel split into 2 x TRS, using balanced cable all through.

12 (edited by KaiS 2024-05-03 01:03:37)

Re: Hardware insert question

For an off-the-shelf solution, you could go with a adapter TRS to 2 x XLRm like this one, which has the correct wiring:

https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BVW3X4WC/ref … 4&th=1
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/614cCuZXEwL._SX522_.jpg


https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61PtCu9vvSL._SX522_.jpg

From there use standard balanced XLRf to TRS cables:

https://www.amazon.de/Twozoh-Buchse-Kli … Y&th=1

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61P4CHOLbkL._SX522_.jpg

13 (edited by MachineAgeVoodoo 2024-05-03 09:40:13)

Re: Hardware insert question

KaiS wrote:

For an off-the-shelf solution, you could go with a adapter TRS to 2 x XLRm like this one, which has the correct wiring:





From there use standard balanced XLRf to TRS cables:

Thanks, then I see your proposed signal path, I suppose this would be an even easier solution then: https://www.insound.de/kabel-adapter/ka … trs-buchse - As all those 3 connections should be tip ring sleeve

14 (edited by KaiS 2024-05-03 12:02:39)

Re: Hardware insert question

The Hosa would work too, if the TRS sockets make reliable contact.
TRS cable mount sockets are a bit problematic in this regard.

On the long run a cable soldered by a tech from a music store is the best solution.

Or you learn soldering - it’s no rocket science smile
And the stuff needed costs pennies these days.

3 pc Neutrik TRS and some balanced cable …