1 Topic by sjzstudio (edited by sjzstudio 2024-05-01 17:59:41)

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Topic: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

My new machine with an AMD Ryzen 7900X and TUF GAMING B650-PLUS configuration has nasty symptoms. The sound card is RME UFX+. It appears with Mixbus 10 Pro DAW and Ardour and Reaper, fairly reasonable buffer size of 512 and below. What could be wrong here.
DSP is not high.

The machine runs cool. I am confused. Or is this configuration too new for Linux? So do I have to wait for the drivers etc. to be updated?

Bios has power savings off, as well as multi threading off. No overclocking enabled.

Below is a link where you can hear what is happening.
https://e.pcloud.link/publink/show?code … 9lfybHauX7

2 Reply by sjzstudio (edited by sjzstudio 2024-05-04 16:54:09)

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

I tested it with a Behringer Uphoria UMC202HD sound card and with that 64 sample buffer I get completely stable operation. UFX+ does not work properly with a buffer of less than 512 samples. Is its Class compliant that bad? Or is the device broken?

EDIT:
In addition to tests, 802 devices. The behavior is similar to UFX+. However, I got to a buffer of 256 samples with it. But it's not stable either. It's amazing that Behriger beats RME equipment in this matter. That Behriger is a cheap device under 100€.

3 Reply by MC

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

Come on, you know you can't compare the USB bus load of a 2 channel interface with a 94 channel one. And you are comparing USB 2 and USB 3, right? Which again will behave totally different and unforseeable.  But even if you set the UFX+ to USB 2 mode, that is a 2 to 30 channel difference.

Bottom line - the computer is the problem.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

4 Reply by sjzstudio (edited by sjzstudio 2024-05-05 12:22:45)

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

MC wrote:

Come on, you know you can't compare the USB bus load of a 2 channel interface with a 94 channel one. And you are comparing USB 2 and USB 3, right? Which again will behave totally different and unforseeable.  But even if you set the UFX+ to USB 2 mode, that is a 2 to 30 channel difference.

Bottom line - the computer is the problem.

So what do you propose as a solution. If I install Windows on this machine? Or is this AMD configuration unsuitable for audio use?
The problem also appears on another machine, based on Intel i9.

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

and on this intel i9 machine, you used the UFX+ in CC-mode ?
Isn't CC-mode made for Apple iPad ?

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

waedi wrote:

and on this intel i9 machine, you used the UFX+ in CC-mode ?
Isn't CC-mode made for Apple iPad ?

As said in another thread:

RME Support wrote:

Mind that the UCX does work perfectly fine with Linux in CC mode - sans Totalmix, but otherwise it can be used as it is....

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Maybe then they are intended to work only with Apple devices in CC mode. I don't know any better. But at least this doesn't work properly with Linux, so maybe you're right.

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

I'm not right, post number 3 is what you should follow.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-05-05 15:07:52)

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

@waedi: CC mode is explained in every manual of devices supporting it. For the UFX+ see chapter 31ff.
In short: allows for driverless operation (iPad, Linux).
Even on Windows, CC mode is supported, but who requires this if you have an RME ASIO driver and TotalMix FX..

@sjzstudio: Sorry to hear about such nasty problems.

I think you know this already, but just to mention it. Only the UFX III supports USB3 CC mode.
The UFX+ only supports CC mode with USB2 ("30ch interface without MADI").

But this doesn't seem to work, for unknown reasons. I would do the following.

1. get a separate USB3 card to isolate the UFX+ from the rest of the USB infrastructure of your PC.
This is always a good basis strategy. Best a card which is known to work very well under Windows,
like the Sonnet USB3 PCIe card with FL1100 chipset.
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html
It's a PCIe 2.0 x1 card so it has only very "low" bandwidth requirements in terms of PCIe version and number of PCIe lanes.
Best is using a PCIe socket on your mainboard, where the PCIe lanes are not shared with other PCIe slots.

Maybe this chipset is also beneficial for operation in CC mode and USB2.
Each USB3 chipset has backward compatibility to USB2 and each USB3 plug has dedicared signals/pins for USB2 fully separate from USB3.

[ If this doesn't solve the issue then you need to invest more work. The only solution is to perform a parallel installation under Windows, best on a separate/dedicated SSD for that. ]

Then you have the following possibilities:

2. You can install the ASIO driver and use the driver setting window to check for USB transport / CRC errors

3. You have the usual tools like LatencyMon to validate, whether stable audio operation is possible with the system.
I know, under Windows you have other driver compared to Linux. But sometimes audio issues can also be caused by bad BIOS or main board design. Therefore I think it is interesting to check whether its possible to get it to work under Windows.

If it works well with the Sonnet card under Windows, then try exactly the same setup using Linux, same USB port, same cable, only difference here: CC-mode and USB2.

If everything fails and it works only reliable under Windows, well then you have now a parallel Windows installation in addition to Linux.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

9 Reply by sjzstudio (edited by sjzstudio 2024-05-05 17:12:25)

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

@ramses
Thanks for the good answer. I know that UFX+ is not USB3 class compliant. I bought it new in 2021 because UFXIII didn't exist yet, so I'm kind of stuck with it now. I was using Windows at the time.

I have a Sonnet usc3 PCIe card like that. It doesn't help the situation.

I can install Windows 10 on this and also alongside Linux. Of course, it will take some time, because Windows needs to be optimized, etc

It appeared on the MXLinux forum that this might be caused by "usbcore.autosuspend" and it must be disabled. I tried turning it off temporarily and at least that time the problem went away. Now it has to be made to stay off on every startup...

I am grateful to all the respondents. I'll figure this out some more and if it doesn't help >>> I'll install windows and let's explore it in more detail.

10 Reply by kd

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

USB and Windows always use a port that runs directly via the CPU and not via the chipset. Yes, there are differences o)
UEFI assigns PCI lanes chaotically, after each boot they are distributed differently, so always use the USB port of the CPU for such things.
Linux and UFX+ (with current firmware) are also currently messed up for me, Linux is currently a chaos construction site in this area.
UFX+ now only provides me with inputs under Mint, no outputs, and I also had these noises there, only much more intense. o)

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-05-20 23:30:04)

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

kd wrote:

USB and Windows always use a port that runs directly via the CPU and not via the chipset. Yes, there are differences o)
UEFI assigns PCI lanes chaotically, after each boot they are distributed differently, so always use the USB port of the CPU for such things.

PCIe lanes come from either CPU or chipset.
USB ports come either from chipset or 3rd party USB controller (on mainboard or PCIe card)

See block diagram of mainboards, here one example.

- PCIe lanes for Slots 1+2 come from chipset
- PCIe lanes for Slots 3-6 come from CPU
- USB2+3 ports come from chipset

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/1731-x10sri-f-block-diagram-jpg/

I am using the PCIe slots for different purposes.

PCIe Slot 1 (PCIe 3.0 x16): nVidia RTX 4070, PCIe 4.0 x16, Performance in PCIe 3.0 x16 Socket is sufficient.
PCIe Slot 2 (PCIe 3.0 x4): not useable, hidden by nVidia card; luckily the RTX4070 needs only 2 sockets.
PCIe Slot 3 (PCIe 3.0 x8): Intel X710-DA2, 2x SFP+ (10 Gbit).
PCIe Slot 4 (PCIe 3.0 x8): Startech USB 3.2, 2x 10Gbit (1x ASM 3142), PCIe 3.0 x2
PCIe Slot 5 (PCIe 2.0 x4, lanes from chipset): Sonnet Allegro Pro, USB3-PRO-4P10-E (2x ASM 3142), PCIe 2.0 x4.
PCIe Slot 6 (PCIe 2.0 x2, lanes from chipset): Sonnet Allegro, USB3-4PM-E (1x Fresco Logic FL1100EX), PCIe 2.0 x1

If you think, that PCIe lanes coming from the Chipset are not so good..
For the Sonnet Allegro with FL1100 USB3 chipset (for UFX III) I had to use Slot 6 (PCIe 2.0 x2, with lanes from chipset).
Works without any issues.
I also prefer PCIe lanes coming from CPU, but there was no other possibility to place the cards. One needed PCIe 3.0, the other PCIe 2.0 x4.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

12 Reply by kd (edited by kd 2024-05-21 13:49:58)

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

4 PCI4 lanes chipset to CPU . If there is a lot of memory in the PC, it quickly becomes tight o)
These are serial connections, they can't all be used at the same time, so interruptions are needed.
With my AMD B550, the UFX+ definitely works better when connected to the CPU.1 level better latencies jump out there.
My keyboard, for example, does not work properly when connected to USB (chipset) and console. Connected to the CPU, it does its job perfectly everywhere.
Crazy, just IT technology o)))
PCI lanes, the hardware sets the limits, but the allocation to OS and software is dynamic.
MS will also work more cleanly with PCI slots, the lane allocation should be objective there. But with USB AMD chipsets the situation is unfortunately very different, chaos. I suspect that AMD itself will soon no longer be able to see through this. o((

13 Reply by sjzstudio (edited by sjzstudio 2024-05-21 20:03:38)

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

That makes sense. Where can I find information on which PCIe goes to the CPU?
https://www.asus.com/in/motherboards-co … b650-plus/

At least the first slot, which is usually reserved for the graphics card. It's free because I'm using an integrated graphics card.

Of course, the problem may be related to the chipset driver, which is not yet completely stable. Or something like that.

The problem apparently does not appear with small USB devices with a couple of channels. But with these larger numbers of channels, things don't work so well and stably. Here is a place for Linux developers to fix it, but now I come to where should I get information about this? Is this ALSA or Linux kernel or who?

14 Reply by kd

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

I think under " PCI Info" you can see where what is connected and how...  o))


http://rh-software.com/

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

I moved the Sonnet USB3 card to the top PCIe slot, which is closest to the processor, because it was free.

In addition, the AMD64-mircocode package was not installed.
(This package contains microcode patches for all AMD AMD64
processors. AMD Releases microcode patches to correct
processor behavior as documented in the respective processor
revision guides. This package includes both AMD CPU microcode
patches and AMD SEV firmware updates.)

The situation is better again.

16 Reply by kd (edited by kd 2024-06-13 17:48:57)

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Re: Burst in sound UFX+ (AvLinux MXe23.2)

sjzstudio wrote:

I moved the Sonnet USB3 card to the top PCIe slot, which is closest to the processor, because it was free.

In addition, the AMD64-mircocode package was not installed.
(This package contains microcode patches for all AMD AMD64
processors. AMD Releases microcode patches to correct
processor behavior as documented in the respective processor
revision guides. This package includes both AMD CPU microcode
patches and AMD SEV firmware updates.)

The situation is better again.

I've just noticed that when UFX+ is set to USB 2.0 but USB 3.0 (CPU) is connected, FL Studio works just as well at 192khz as it does at 96khz. This never worked before because I always had settings on " Auto" and then activated USB 3.0.  USB 3.0 AMD/Windows seems to be a pretty immature thing. But I can't say what it looks like with Intel hardware.
However, Windows 7 !  Windows 11 also runs less well at 192 khz .  Crazy o)