1 Topic by fleckington (edited by fleckington 2024-07-30 03:56:28)

  • Registered: 2024-06-18
  • Posts: 3

Topic: UFX III - MADI Split (64 Channels, 96khz)

I understand the UFX III is capable of supporting up to 64 channels of MADI over both Optical/Coax using the "split" mode.

My current setup is 32 channels of 96khz audio coming in from 2 Ferrofish Pulse 16's (MADI Format: 64 (32ch), MADI Frame: 96K Frame). One Ferrofish Pulse 16 running via ADAT into a Ferrofish Pulse 16 MX running into the optical MADI ports on the UFX 3.

I'm planning to add another Pulse 16 MX with SFP Coax module into the Wordclock ports on the UFX 3 (with the potential for another Pulse 16 routing into the MX over ADAT in the future).

My main question is: does sample rate matter here in the way that it does with ADAT? Would the UFX III support all 64 channels of 96khz audio from up to 4x Ferrofish Pulse 16's using the MADI "Split" mode?

Some follow up questions:

  • Would there be any potential clocking issues with that I'm missing? Currently I'm not having to use the wordclock cables and the two Pulse 16's are synced perfectly. I'm assuming/hoping this will continue to be the case with two more Pulse 16's over MADI Coax as long as I'm using the UFX III's internal clock.

  • Any advice on BNC/Coaxial cables here? I've never used these before and it seems like there are a lot of options available.

  • Uncertain about the relevance of / correct option for "Word Clock Termination" settings in this case.

  • Also uncertain about the relevance of / correct option for "Word Clock I/O Single Speed" settings here.

  • Regarding the remaining ADAT I/O: If I were to use this in the future, would I been hampered by the fact that I no longer have Word Clock available? I've noticed that some devices seem to sync just fine without WC (Pulse 16), while some seem to require it (Quantum 2626). Is there some way to know whether or not a device can reasonably stay clocked/synced over ADAT alone? For instance, the H9000?

I think this setup should work perfectly fine, but there are some details I'm uncertain about and I just wanted to seek a bit of clarity before pulling the trigger on this upgrade.

  • waedi
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Swiss Zürich
  • Registered: 2020-12-08
  • Posts: 4,541

Re: UFX III - MADI Split (64 Channels, 96khz)

By Google :

MADI is designed to send up to 64 audio channels at 48kHz sampling frequency (32 channels at 96kHz, 16 channels at 192kHz) from one device to another device in a unidirectional data stream.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • Registered: 2024-06-18
  • Posts: 3

Re: UFX III - MADI Split (64 Channels, 96khz)

Oops, I see it now.. from the UFX 3 spec sheet:

Standard: up to 64 channels 24 bit 48 kHz

So, assuming that I'd still need the I/O but will have to make do with 48khz, the remaining questions still stand if anyone is open and willing to shed some light.

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-07-30 07:07:59)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,194

Re: UFX III - MADI Split (64 Channels, 96khz)

MADI uses channel multiplexing for higher sample rates, like ADAT does.
In 64ch mode: 64ch@single speed, 32ch@double speed, 16ch@quad speed.

According to the UFX III manual, split mode means in 64ch mode:
via optical:       32ch@single speed, 16ch@double speed, 8ch@quad
via BNC (WC):  32ch@single speed, 16ch@double speed, 8ch@quad

Assumed you have split mode enabled, then you are getting these channels:
at single  speed: MAo 1-32, MAc 1-32
at double speed: MAo 1-16, MAc 1-16
at quad   speed: MA op 1-8, MA co 1-8

%---------------------------

EDIT: Not to be confused with the capabilities of the M-32 Pro converters.
According to the manual, those devices have 2 transceivers, optical and BNC.
So that 32channel are possible at quad speed: 16ch via optical, 16 via coax (BNC).

With a recording interface like MADIface XT or HDSPe MADI [FX] which have multiple MADI buses,
you can then use one optical and one coax MADI bus to have 16(opt)+16(coax) at quad speed.

This is This is not the case for the UFX III not the case.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2024-06-18
  • Posts: 3

Re: UFX III - MADI Split (64 Channels, 96khz)

ramses wrote:

MADI uses channel multiplexing for higher sample rates, like ADAT does.
In 64ch mode: 64ch@single speed, 32ch@double speed, 16ch@quad speed.

According to the UFX III manual, split mode means in 64ch mode:
via optical:       32ch@single speed, 16ch@double speed, 8ch@quad
via BNC (WC):  32ch@single speed, 16ch@double speed, 8ch@quad

Assumed you have split mode enabled, then you are getting these channels:
at single  speed: MAo 1-32, MAc 1-32
at double speed: MAo 1-16, MAc 1-16
at quad   speed: MA op 1-8, MA co 1-8

Thanks for the reply, apparently I didn't dig deep enough to find the answer initially, but I think I was wishfully thinking that maybe each set of ports had its own MADI interface. I'll probably end up chaining doing an additional 16 via a Pulse 16 MX into the Wordclock ports @ 48khz.

Would you have any insight into the follow up questions? They're still sort of lingering in my mind.

6 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-07-30 09:33:55)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,194

Re: UFX III - MADI Split (64 Channels, 96khz)

Option A)

You can chain the devices on one MADI bus at single speed

UFX III---MADI(o)--->Pulse16MX#1---MADI(o)--->Pulse16MX#2---MADI(o)--->Pulse16MX#3---MADI(o)--->Pulse16MX#4
   +                                                                                                                                                                                +
     \----------------------------------------------------------------<--------------------------------------------------------------------------/


Option B

This should also be possible to save ~2x3 samples at single speed for the forwarding of MADI packets between the serially connected devices:

     +---MADI(o)--->Pulse16MX#1---MADI(o)--->Pulse16MX#2
    /                                                                                  +
   +--------------------------<-------------------------------------/
UFX III
   +--------------------------<--------------------------------------\
     \                                                                                  +
      +---MADI(c)--->Pulse16MX#4---MADI(c)--->Pulse16MX#3


Conclusions / Recommendations

I think I would choose Option A and stick to one cabling type:
MADI via optical multimode (OM4) which also provides galvanic isolation between the devices.

Additional advantage: WC BNC ports stay free in cases where you might need Word Clock!

fleckington wrote:

Would there be any potential clocking issues with that I'm missing?
[...]
Uncertain about the relevance of / correct option for "Word Clock Termination" settings in this case.

In the two proposed setups above the Pulse 16MX do not need WC.
They are slave to the master (UFX III) and get the clock signal from their digital inputs: MADI optical and MADI coax (BNC).
Same as with ADAT, SPDIF or AES where devices also can get the clock via their digital input.

Maybe my blog article contains some useful information on that topic additionally for you:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … ios-en-de/

fleckington wrote:

Any advice on BNC/Coaxial cables here? I've never used these before and it seems like there are a lot of options available.

With optical multimode cables the cable length may be up to 2 km between each of the devices in a serial chain.
With coax/BNC 100 m.

Optical multimode cables (OM3 or better OM4) are my preference because of the additional galvanic isolation.
Patch cables are available usually up to 30 or even 50 m, some shops offer custom length.

In a house/building you can also provide structured cabling between rooms, but you need a specialist for connecting fiber to patch panels. I would save the work and chain the devices with "patch cables", which have the proper plugs (SC, LC) already mounted.

Take care of the different plug standards SC and LC.
You will need SC-LC between UFX III and Pulse 16MX and LC-LC between the Pulse 16 MX.

My installation as an example, see the violet OM4 cable here in this photo:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/3079-09-rack-back-madi-extfx-cabling-jpg/

fleckington wrote:

Also uncertain about the relevance of / correct option for "Word Clock I/O Single Speed" settings here.

You do not need that.

fleckington wrote:

Regarding the remaining ADAT I/O: If I were to use this in the future, would I been hampered by the fact that I no longer have Word Clock available? I've noticed that some devices seem to sync just fine without WC (Pulse 16), while some seem to require it (Quantum 2626). Is there some way to know whether or not a device can reasonably stay clocked/synced over ADAT alone? For instance, the H9000?

If the devices have an ADAT input, then they can get the clock via ADAT IN from the UFX III as master.
If they don't have, then you can make one device to act as clock master, but this is only possible with one device.
By SteadyClock(FS) technology the UFX III as clock slave can take out any jitter to a high degree.

Alternatively, keep your WC port free for such purposes.
Therefore, I proposed to use MADI optical, then you can still use WC.

It is also an advantage to have the recording interface (UFX III) to act as clock master, because then the application controls the sample rate via the driver and the slaves will follow the clock.
To make changes from single to double speed possible, I recommend you use 96k MADI frame size.
It doesn't hurt to use 96k MADI frame size also for single speed; needs to be configured on all MADI devices!

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14