1 (edited by memopro 2024-09-05 22:29:56)

Topic: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

Hello!
I have a few questions about the outputs of the Babyface Pro FS.

I have several pairs of headphones and they are all low impedance around 32 ohms, but I use them through the TRS 6.3mm output because the sound is louder compared to the small 3.5mm output.
As far as I understand, although according to the specifications, the 3.5mm output has more power, it is 6db weaker in sound, also according to the specifications.
I listen or work at a moderate volume, I'm not sure but no more than 90 db SPL i guess.
Is it possible at these listening/working levels to get a change in the frequency response of the headphones?


I have the following headphones:
AKG K371 - Impedance - 32Ω, Sensitivity - 114dB
Steven Slate Audio VSX - Impedance - 37Ω, Sensitivity - 127mW
HIFIMAN HE400se - Impedance - 32Ω, Sensitivity -  91dB

Should I only use 3.5mm output for all my headphones or the HIFIMAN HE400se can I use them through 6.3mm output because of their lower sensitivity and constant impedance because they are planar headphones, please explain these details to me.
Thanks in advance.

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

I hope it is correct, what I found to this topic on the internet.
I needed to look because I had up to now no demand for research on this topic.
As I regarded this topic as interesting, I had a look and hope that I do not summarize it wrong. Otherwise sorry wink
But maybe you can prove this yourself now where you know where to look for.
Careful: compare at equal volume levels, louder sounds better and you might have a bias (psychoacoustic).

Your headphones all have relatively low impedance, ranging from 32 to 37 ohms. For simplicity, let’s assume an average impedance of 35 ohms.

With the 6.3 mm output (10 ohms), you would achieve a damping factor of: 35 ohms / 10 ohms = 3.5
With the 3.5 mm output (0.1 ohms), the damping factor would be 100 times higher: 35 ohms / 0.1 ohms = 350

It’s generally recommended to aim for a damping factor of at least 10 for headphones, meaning the output impedance of the headphone amp should not exceed: 35 ohms / 10 = 3.5 ohms.

So, when you have two outputs to choose from—one with 0.1 ohms and one with 10 ohms—the 3.5 mm output (0.1 ohms) will likely provide better bass control due to the much higher damping factor.

What does a higher damping factor improve?

— Tighter bass response: A higher damping factor means that the amplifier can quickly and precisely return the headphone driver’s diaphragm to its neutral position after each movement, resulting in cleaner and less "boomy" bass.
— Reduced distortion: With a low damping factor, the driver may "overshoot" and introduce distortion, especially in the low-frequency range. A higher damping factor reduces this, leading to a cleaner and more accurate sound.
— More consistent frequency response: The impedance of headphones changes with frequency, and a higher output impedance (low damping factor) can interact with this and distort the sound. A higher damping factor keeps the frequency response more accurate and less affected by this interaction.
— Better dynamic control: A low damping factor can result in the amplifier not having enough control over the driver during fast or loud sections of music. A higher damping factor ensures the headphones can handle dynamic shifts more precisely.

In summary, the 3.5 mm output (0.1 ohms) will give you clearer bass, lower distortion, and overall more accurate sound, especially with low-impedance headphones like yours.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 (edited by memopro 2024-09-11 14:25:29)

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

ramses wrote:

I hope it is correct, what I found to this topic on the internet.
I needed to look because I had up to now no demand for research on this topic.
As I regarded this topic as interesting, I had a look and hope that I do not summarize it wrong. Otherwise sorry wink
But maybe you can prove this yourself now where you know where to look for.
Careful: compare at equal volume levels, louder sounds better and you might have a bias (psychoacoustic).

Your headphones all have relatively low impedance, ranging from 32 to 37 ohms. For simplicity, let’s assume an average impedance of 35 ohms.

With the 6.3 mm output (10 ohms), you would achieve a damping factor of: 35 ohms / 10 ohms = 3.5
With the 3.5 mm output (0.1 ohms), the damping factor would be 100 times higher: 35 ohms / 0.1 ohms = 350

It’s generally recommended to aim for a damping factor of at least 10 for headphones, meaning the output impedance of the headphone amp should not exceed: 35 ohms / 10 = 3.5 ohms.

So, when you have two outputs to choose from—one with 0.1 ohms and one with 10 ohms—the 3.5 mm output (0.1 ohms) will likely provide better bass control due to the much higher damping factor.

What does a higher damping factor improve?

— Tighter bass response: A higher damping factor means that the amplifier can quickly and precisely return the headphone driver’s diaphragm to its neutral position after each movement, resulting in cleaner and less "boomy" bass.
— Reduced distortion: With a low damping factor, the driver may "overshoot" and introduce distortion, especially in the low-frequency range. A higher damping factor reduces this, leading to a cleaner and more accurate sound.
— More consistent frequency response: The impedance of headphones changes with frequency, and a higher output impedance (low damping factor) can interact with this and distort the sound. A higher damping factor keeps the frequency response more accurate and less affected by this interaction.
— Better dynamic control: A low damping factor can result in the amplifier not having enough control over the driver during fast or loud sections of music. A higher damping factor ensures the headphones can handle dynamic shifts more precisely.

In summary, the 3.5 mm output (0.1 ohms) will give you clearer bass, lower distortion, and overall more accurate sound, especially with low-impedance headphones like yours.


Thank you very much for the detailed answer, almost everything was clear to me.

When doing headphone tests between the two outputs, I always turn down the volume by -6dB by switching to the 6.3mm output to have a gain match.


My question is specifically about HIFIMAN HE400se, because they are planar headphones and their (32Ω) impedance is not variable as with dynamic headphones, will they also be affected by the high output impedance of the 6.3mm output?!
Also does sensitivity (91dB) matter in this regard?

4 (edited by ramses 2024-09-11 14:59:56)

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

Even though the HIFIMAN HE400se are planar magnetic headphones with stable 32 Ω impedance, they will still be affected by the high output impedance of the 6.3 mm jack (10 Ω).

Still, a lower output impedance gives better driver control, especially for bass. So, the 3.5 mm output (0.1 Ω) will give you tighter, more accurate sound because it provides a much higher damping factor.

As for sensitivity (91dB), it just means the HE400se needs more power to reach a good volume, but it doesn’t alter the importance of output impedance.

I think the 3.5 mm jack will still give you the best sound. Please report back about your experience with this.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

ramses wrote:

Even though the HIFIMAN HE400se are planar magnetic headphones with stable 32 Ω impedance, they will still be affected by the high output impedance of the 6.3 mm jack (10 Ω).

Still, a lower output impedance gives better driver control, especially for bass. So, the 3.5 mm output (0.1 Ω) will give you tighter, more accurate sound because it provides a much higher damping factor.

As for sensitivity (91dB), it just means the HE400se needs more power to reach a good volume, but it doesn’t alter the importance of output impedance.

I think the 3.5 mm jack will still give you the best sound. Please report back about your experience with this.


Ok, once again a big thank you.
Last question:
How much will it affect the frequency response, listening volume, specifically if I'm using 32Ω headphones on a 6.3mm output and listening to music at 75db SPL  or 95db SPL , I guess at higher volumes there will be more change in the frequency response of the headphones.
I almost always listen at 75db-80db SPL , very rarely I reach 90db.

6 (edited by ramses 2024-09-11 15:29:41)

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

I do not want to be impolite, but how can I answer that? Tell me, do you actually have ears? ;-)
How about finding out for yourself?
If you can't hear any difference, then the question is probably superfluous anyway, isn't it?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

7 (edited by memopro 2024-09-11 16:07:28)

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

ramses wrote:

I do not want to be impolite, but how can I answer that? Tell me, do you actually have ears? ;-)
How about finding out for yourself?
If you can't hear any difference, then the question is probably superfluous anyway, isn't it?

I have actually done these tests many times by listening to music from both outputs and I find no audible difference or is insignificant, but technically it is claimed that there is a difference and that is why this question was raised.
Thank you for your patience.
God bless you.

8 (edited by ramses 2024-09-11 16:26:10)

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

memopro wrote:
ramses wrote:

I do not want to be impolite, but how can I answer that? Tell me, do you actually have ears? ;-)
How about finding out for yourself?
If you can't hear any difference, then the question is probably superfluous anyway, isn't it?

I have actually done these tests many times by listening to music from both outputs and I find no audible difference or is insignificant, but technically it is claimed that there is a difference and that is why this question was raised.
Thank you for your patience.
God bless you.

If you do not hear a difference and are also of the opinion that a higher dampening factor has more impact / priority,
then I think everything important to the topic has been told.

I would understand your question, if there is a reason behind it, that you need to prevent a possibly degraded recording for a paid job. But this is also not the case, we talk in this case about pure listening.

If you are so unsure about the sound, then I can only recommend investing in an ADI-2 DAC FS or even Pro FS.

Then you have everything:
- very low impedance of the headphone output
- enough power
- one Headphone Output (pro: or two of the same kind)
- useful features like auto reflevel, dynamic loudness
- PEQ if you see a certain demand
- a quality which has not to be put in question as you have one kind of output (IEM is a different topic)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

I would understand your question, if there is a reason behind it, that you need to prevent a possibly degraded recording for a paid job. But this is for pure listening, right?

I'm actually a music artist trying to improve the quality of my production, including mixing and mastering.
I'm just interested in the technical side of things as well because it's related to my job after all.
Thank you.

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

memopro wrote:

I would understand your question, if there is a reason behind it, that you need to prevent a possibly degraded recording for a paid job. But this is for pure listening, right?

I'm actually a music artist trying to improve the quality of my production, including mixing and mastering.
I'm just interested in the technical side of things as well because it's related to my job after all.
Thank you.

We talked already about that

- it is more important to have the bass under control and this doesn't seem to be possible
  with a much lower dampening factor if the information that I got from internet is correct

and that

- the sensitivity only has to do with the volume, whether the headphone output is able to drive your phones.
  in other words: if the bass is under control, which is most important, as you have a lot of energy in the bass part,
  then everything else is also fine

Or do you really think those things that you can't hear has precedence over getting the bass under control?
You have only these two outputs and these two options.

If everything is so critical for you, then take my advice and get the ADI-2 DAC or Pro FS.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

ramses wrote:
memopro wrote:

I would understand your question, if there is a reason behind it, that you need to prevent a possibly degraded recording for a paid job. But this is for pure listening, right?

I'm actually a music artist trying to improve the quality of my production, including mixing and mastering.
I'm just interested in the technical side of things as well because it's related to my job after all.
Thank you.

We talked already about that

- it is more important to have the bass under control and this doesn't seem to be possible
  with a much lower dampening factor if the information that I got from internet is correct

and that

- the sensitivity only has to do with the volume, whether the headphone output is able to drive your phones.
  in other words: if the bass is under control, which is most important, as you have a lot of energy in the bass part,
  then everything else is also fine

Or do you really think those things that you can't hear has precedence over getting the bass under control?
You have only these two outputs and these two options.

If everything is so critical for you, then take my advice and get the ADI-2 DAC or Pro FS.

Thanks for the help!

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

With my headphones and I have a few, I can not hear any difference between the 2 outputs too.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

vinark wrote:

With my headphones and I have a few, I can not hear any difference between the 2 outputs too.

What headphones are you using the device with?

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

Sennheiser Hd600, Mackie hd250, a grado 180, an urbanears, AKG k240 studio, some cheap in ears en others.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

Same here - Sennheiser HD650 (300Ω) and Beyerdynamic 1990DT (250 Ω). I keep both connected at all times as they give fairly different presentation on mixes. The 650 is what I mix on, occasionally checking on the Beyer which has quite exaggerated highs and bass.

Went back and forth between the two outputs and could not detect much of a meaningful difference. The Senn is on the 6.3., Beyer on 3.5. Technically that might be wrong, but I figured the Beyers bass might be cured a bit by better damping.

16 (edited by memopro 2024-09-12 21:13:34)

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

NoisyNarrowBandDevice wrote:

Same here - Sennheiser HD650 (300Ω) and Beyerdynamic 1990DT (250 Ω). I keep both connected at all times as they give fairly different presentation on mixes. The 650 is what I mix on, occasionally checking on the Beyer which has quite exaggerated highs and bass.

Went back and forth between the two outputs and could not detect much of a meaningful difference. The Senn is on the 6.3., Beyer on 3.5. Technically that might be wrong, but I figured the Beyers bass might be cured a bit by better damping.

Thanks for the comment.
In my case, I was wondering if a 6.3mm output would significantly change the sound of low impedance headphones, around 32Ω, as the output itself has around 10Ω output impedance and is technically made for 80Ω headphones and up, because the impedance of the headphones should be about 8 times up the output impedance of the amplifier.

In your case there shouldn't be a deviation in the frequency response of the headphones as both your pairs of headphones over 80Ω, just the difference should be in the sound level, technically the 6.3mm output is about 3.5 times louder powerful from 3.5mm on headphones with 300Ω headphones.
6.3mm - 35mW at 300Ω
3.5mm - 10mW at 300Ω

It is technically accepted that if an amplifier cannot deliver about 20 mW, it is insufficient for the particular headphones.

Audio Interfaces HP Outputs: https://ibb.co/Czd9FGx

Re: Babyface Pro FS Headphone Outputs

Hard to say, which one is better for lowimpedance phones. 3.5 mm is better impedancewise, 6.3 is better powerwise.... One has to try.