• Registered: 2017-04-15
  • Posts: 46

Topic: Direct Monitor Mic Level

Hello again. Original Babyface owner here, with FF800 connected by ADAT. I've had this system for years. Works great.

My main issue, which I've always had and just dealt with, is monitoring a live vocal mic in the headphones. The level in the headphones is SO low. I have a pretty good grasp of TotalMix, the routing, I'm familiar with how mics are supposed to sound in headphones, I regularly mix and use in-ear monitors professionally for live performances. So I'm not a newbie at how this whole thing is supposed to work. But the mic level monitoring in TM continues to be a nut I can't crack.

Looking at fader levels and gain levels, my mic should be on stun. And the track playback from my DAW is loud as can be. But I have to be a one-ear off headphone user in order to hear what's being recorded properly. Even when I turn the backing track down -20db and crank the physical headphone output. 

Surely there's just something I'm missing, right?

Also, I've tried both the headphone output from the Babyface and the FF800. Sony MDR-7506 headphones. Windows 10.

  • waedi
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Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

You have the same issue on the FF800 headphone output and on the Babyface headphone output...
That make me think the headphone is broken.
Can you test the headphone elsewhere ? Is it working normal ?

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • Registered: 2017-04-15
  • Posts: 46

Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

waedi wrote:

You have the same issue on the FF800 headphone output and on the Babyface headphone output...
That make me think the headphone is broken.
Can you test the headphone elsewhere ? Is it working normal ?

Headphones definitely work. They work on other devices not even related to this computer. On this computer and in TM, they work loud and clear on all other forms of playback, including software playback from the DAW. The ONLY issue is when I’m monitoring a live microphone.

And just to be thorough, the peak levels of the mic are in the neighborhood of -15 on the TM channel meter.

  • waedi
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Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

The mic level is visible on the hardware output headphones ?

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • Registered: 2017-04-15
  • Posts: 46

Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

Definitely is. On the Babyface headphone output, the headphone output is at unity, and the mic channel is +6, and it's barely audible. At that output level on the main headphone fader, I have to turn my DAW playback down by at least 20db.

6 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2024-11-07 07:39:51)

  • waedi
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Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

The fader of the input channel is fully up at +6, What level has the mic signal ?

What is the input gain set ?

Has the other mic input the same issue ?

The music from the DAW is loud as normal, so the headphone and the headphone output working fine, right ?

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

7 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

If the peak of the mic is at -15 then it is fully normal that a full music playback has to be attenuated by 20 dB so both blend in. Why not up the Mic gain a bit?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

8 Reply by jmo2610 (edited by jmo2610 2024-11-07 17:51:55)

  • Registered: 2017-04-15
  • Posts: 46

Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

MC wrote:

If the peak of the mic is at -15 then it is fully normal that a full music playback has to be attenuated by 20 dB so both blend in. Why not up the Mic gain a bit?

I mean, maybe my understanding all these years of gain staging all these years has been incorrect. I'm happy to learn something new. But I was always told to set input gains between -18 and -15dB. I'm assuming the meters on TM are showing me peak and RMS levels. So that's why I have not upped the mic gain.

I guess I come from this from a different perspective. I do understand what you're saying about it makes sense to have to turn playback down to blend my input level. I have much more experience in live sound. Where a mic input gain at -18dB coming through my in-ears could take my head off if I turned my pack up too much. I couldn't do that with TM if I tried. However, these headphone amps on the FF800 and Babyface have plenty of juice for every other use case for me. So that's what I don't understand, and it makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong, or there's a setting in Windows I'm missing.

9 Reply by MC

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Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

In the digital world you have limits - and not so much 'gain' through the stages to regain as with analog. If you want to work here as you do elsewhere the phones outputs would need +12 to +18 dB of digital gain. Well, you can do that with TM FX! Either with EQ or Compressor it is possible to get fixed wideband amplification for the output.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2017-04-15
  • Posts: 46

Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

MC wrote:

In the digital world you have limits - and not so much 'gain' through the stages to regain as with analog. If you want to work here as you do elsewhere the phones outputs would need +12 to +18 dB of digital gain. Well, you can do that with TM FX! Either with EQ or Compressor it is possible to get fixed wideband amplification for the output.

Is that the ol' raise every EQ band equally trick?

I don't have a compressor in my TM due to original Babyface.

11 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: Direct Monitor Mic Level

Nope, it's even better:

https://www.archiv.rme-audio.de/images/digital_gain_eq.png

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website