Topic: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

I have a vintage Hammerfall PCI Interface Card v.1.8 + HDSPe ExpressCard + [img]Multiface[/img] system that I'm trying to revive if possible.

I also have an older Mac Pro (3,1 version, from early 2008) that has PCI slots that I hope would be compatible with the PCI interface card, but before trying to fit the PCI card in this machine I would like to know if this would be possible at all, or whether some solution exists that would permit me to use the HDSPe ExpressCard as a peripheral through firewire.

Of course, this would mean installing a compatible MacOS system in the Mac, and I would appreciate any data about the last compatible versions for MacOS and this RME system.

Your help will be very appreciated, as I can't find much on the internet at large...

Regards

Pablo

2 (edited by waedi 2025-01-17 06:41:52)

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

There is a driver 425 for MacOS 11 and up.
if you can install MacOS 11 or up this would be a solution for the PCI card.
The express card would need a special external box and I doubt such is to find with firewire connection.
Also there is no firewire driver for hdsp systems, an external USB box for express card could be a solution.
I would put the express card on the side and focus on the PCI card.
It should work.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

I have 3 old 1st gen madifaces with expresscard still running on win 11.
Lenovo t430 and p51 still have the expresscard slot, and one is running in a expresscard to thunderbolt enclosure by sonnett.
Maybe this helps.
Georg

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

waedi wrote:

an external USB box for express card could be a solution.

IMHO, USB box for Express Card cannot work, maybe some of USB4 sockets, if lucky.... Thunderbolt to Express Card should/could work.

FF UCX II, Digiface USB, Babyface Pro FS

5

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

waedi wrote:

There is a driver 425 for MacOS 11 and up.
if you can install MacOS 11 or up this would be a solution for the PCI card.

No support for PCI. Only PCI Express.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

Thanks for your answers!

From what I can make out from your replies, it does seem that I am out of luck. The Hammerfall cards I have are the ones you can see in this very old version of the RME site:

archiv.rme-audio.de / old / hdsp / cardpci.htm   (sorry, I separated with spaces since I see links are not allowed in posts)

It seems the PCI card has only an original PCI bus connector, not a PCI express, which means I can't install it in my Mac Pro, and that Firewire adapters for the laptop card are no longer manufactured...

Maybe the best to do is to try getting an older Windows laptop that still supports the expresscard, and then try installing a compatible version of Windows, etc. Or maybe try to get the more recent PCIe card that will work on the old Mac Pro.

Oh, well, it was a long shot anyway, these cards are nearly 20 years old by now.

I really appreciate your help, thanks!

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

Links are fine, just not in a new account's first post. I have some hope that this new measure would reduce some automated spam posts. Post all the links you want now....

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

I've seen a pcie to pci adapter which works for that very hammerfall PCI card, as it is low profile. So there's a chance if you find that.

Still, the Multiface can be used standalone, right? I'm getting one for its extra inputs in a small form factor and feed them via ADAT into the main unit, which is a Babyface Pro FS. I just wonder, if this is delaying the unit altogether in order to sync. So does this solution negate the speed advantage of a modern device?

9 (edited by waedi 2025-02-07 00:24:56)

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

If I remember correct the Multiface has no storage for Totalmix settings, the routing keeps present as long the unit is under power after doing the routing in Totalmix.
Without a working Totalmix the standalone functionality is not useful for your demand.
And it is not very mobile unless you use powerbanks.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

10 (edited by ramses 2025-02-07 10:14:28)

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

Hopslost wrote:

Still, the Multiface can be used standalone, right?

https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/mface2_e.pdf

Manual 16.1, 21

Disconnect mode allows standalone operation, but its limited.
You need the computer to initialize the device and a power supply is needed, so that you can disconnect the computer later.

Hopslost wrote:

I just wonder, if this is delaying the unit altogether in order to sync.

What do you mean by that?

Hopslost wrote:

So does this solution negate the speed advantage of a modern device?

Which speed advantage?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, M-1620 Pro D, RayDAT, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10

11 (edited by vinark 2025-02-07 11:31:44)

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

If not already 100% clear, if powered down the unit has no firmware so won't function at all without a computer connected first. After the firmware and settings are loaded the device can be disconnected from the computer but of course not from power.
So the multi- and digifaces (hdsp versions) are useless without a host card, be it pci, pcie or cardbus.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

ramses wrote:
Hopslost wrote:

So does this solution negate the speed advantage of a modern device?

Which speed advantage?

the ADC of the BBF Pro FS has a much lower latency, so I thought to be in sync with each other means the faster device has to "wait". I'm not into the technical details yet, it would suffice me to know if it introduces any problems/latency for the BBF and its monitoring capabilities if I connect an old/slow ADAT device

13 (edited by vinark 2025-02-07 13:23:25)

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

Hopslost wrote:
ramses wrote:
Hopslost wrote:

So does this solution negate the speed advantage of a modern device?

Which speed advantage?

the ADC of the BBF Pro FS has a much lower latency, so I thought to be in sync with each other means the faster device has to "wait". I'm not into the technical details yet, it would suffice me to know if it introduces any problems/latency for the BBF and its monitoring capabilities if I connect an old/slow ADAT device

No it does not. The MF is not slower, just its converters take a few samples more then the newest ones, but that is not audible at all.
There is no waiting involved it is a Continuos stream of samples.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

14 (edited by ramses 2025-02-07 13:27:56)

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

The BBF Pro FS driver knows only its own converter specs.
Forwarding via ADAT is fast 1-2 samples.
The AD/DA converter of the Multiface II are quite dated and have a higher converter latency.
You simply need to look into the RME manual it is documented there for every product.

See ch 30.2 Latency and monitoring
AD (43.2 x 1/fs) ms 0.98  @44.1 kHz sample rate
DA (28 x 1/fs) ms 0.63     @44.1 kHz sample rate

This is for the AD/DA conversion 1,61ms @44.1 kHz sample rate

Transport over USB can cause much higher latencies, depends on your use case, but still this is nothing severe, especially when recording.

AD (5 x 1/fs) ms 0.11 @44.1 kHz sample rate
DA (7 x 1/fs) ms 0.16 @44.1 kHz sample rate

For the BBF Pro FS AD+DA is 0.27 ms   @44.1 kHz sample rate

These are the pure converter latencies, transport over USB/FW is on top.

You can see some real-world values of RTL (round trip latency) here in my blog:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … cts-en-de/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, M-1620 Pro D, RayDAT, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10

15 (edited by Hopslost 2025-02-08 23:11:44)

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

sorry about the standalone confusion, I mixed that one up with the fireface 400, which is also vintage enough to not have usb. I thought maybe every analog in/out could by default be routed to the adat channel with the same number. (I mean, why not?)
Anyway, I'm a lucky Multiface user now, with a Thinkpad X61 Tablet which has a few extra buttons below the screen and I'm gonna fiddle a bit and do something with linux.

I really wonder what the intended use case for the 12V car adapter was. Maybe for a spontaneous session in a tour bus or at a festival, sitting in the trunk?

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

Hopslost wrote:

I thought maybe every analog in/out could by default be routed to the adat channel with the same number. (I mean, why not?)

Every HW output has an individual submix / routing.
You can route any
- HW input- and
- SW playback-
channel to any HW output (analog ports, digital ports).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, M-1620 Pro D, RayDAT, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

ramses wrote:
Hopslost wrote:

I thought maybe every analog in/out could by default be routed to the adat channel with the same number. (I mean, why not?)

Every HW output has an individual submix / routing.
You can route any
- HW input- and
- SW playback-
channel to any HW output (analog ports, digital ports).

sure, what I meant was there could be a default routing that applies in standalone mode when there's no software connection. With only the bare metal and power it would be nice if the analog ins/outs are routed 1:1 to the digital ins/outs and maybe the sum to the headphones.

Re: Trying to revive very old multiface 1 system

There is no firmware and thus no working fpga without it being loaded first. Soo nothing works. The firmware is stored on the pci (etc) card not in the unit

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632