Topic: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

Alright, so I have a word clock cable running from my master clock to the WC input on my MADI card.  The HDSPe settings say that the preferred sync source is WC input, and both the WC and MADI inputs show a successful sync.  The "autosync reference" always displays the correct sample rate and ALWAYS follows the master clock. HOWEVER, somewhere there is a disconnect.  The Clock mode is autosync, and the system clock mode is slave as it should be, but the actual sample rate will not follow the clock.  I have to open the audio midi setup in the utilities folder and switch the sample rate.  This should not happen.  Also, any application can cause a sample rate change at any time, which is also a huge pain. 

Please explain the mindset behind this.  In my mind, if I set the MADI card to external WC sync, the only way that it should be able to be altered is by changing the EXTERNAL word clock.  Please help.

Thanks,
Brian

2

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

We have re-tested this with a HDSPe MADI card and the current Mac driver. It works exactly as expected. As this is missing in your post: the only explanation would be that you try to change the sample rate not within the same sample rate range. Switching between 44/48 and 96 through WC is not supported, as explained here and in the manual.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

Ok there are 4 sample rates I work with.  44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, and 96kHz.  Your saying I can't switch between those 4 rates using WC?  Why not?  I can't find anything in the manual stating that this is not possible.  A page number would help.  Anyway, from the manual:

23. Word Clock

23.1 Word Clock Input and Output

SteadyClock guarantees an excellent performance in all clock modes. Based on the highly effi-
cient jitter suppression, the HDSPe MADI refreshes and cleans up any clock signal, and pro-
vides it as reference clock at the BNC output (see chapter 30.6).

Input
The HDSPe MADI's transformer isolated word clock input is active when Pref. Sync Ref in the
Settings dialog has been switched to Word Clock, the clock mode AutoSync has been acti-
vated, and a valid word clock signal is present. The signal at the BNC input can be Single, Dou-
ble or Quad Speed, the HDSPe MADI automatically adapts to it.
As soon as a valid signal is
detected, the green LED is lit, and the Settings dialog shows either Lock or Sync (see chapter 30.2).


My card shows both madi and wc as in sync at the sample rate denoted by my master clock.  But the actual sample rate of the card doesn't follow.

Is this a matter of what is using the drivers at any given time?  For instance, my 2nd engineer sometimes changes the system sound output to the madi card in order to listen to tutorials in the control room.  Can this sort of thing, that is accessing the card by more than one application, restrain the card from switching rates properly?  Occasionally I get switching to the wrong rate.  If I'm doing 44.1 it will be at 88.2 or vice versa.  Same with 48 and 96.

Sorry for the harshness in my other post, I was feeling pretty lost at the time...

Thanks guys for your help.

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

Of course system sounds can interfere with the audio interface and the DAW application, if you want to work safely: turn them off!

Which application are you running, BTW?

Regards,
Ulrich

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

No no, the system sounds are all off.  Thats the first thing i do when I buy a mac.  I cant believe that they have not been eliminated by Apple's minimalist attitude.  I guess they are an accessibility thing. In Audio Midi setup, my system sound is set to internal speaker... always, even though I turned off the system sounds already. But, sometimes I need to hear quicktime, or the finder for that matter.  So, the sound settings in system preferences (and AMS) must be set so that the computer's main output equals "HDSPe MADI (slot 3)".

*note that in AMS there are 2 output settings, a system out and a default out.  system always = internal speaker, it's the default out that I am asking about.

I need to know if setting my sound settings in system preferences (or AMS) to the madi card is what is locking the card to a particular sample rate. Other than that I really see no reason for this to be occurring.  It's so strange because like I already said, the settings app shows that the sample rate from the master clock is being properly detected, the card just doesn't switch. I only use 441, 48, 882, and 96.  No DDS and no non-standard sample rates.

Really I just need to hear the finder and QT.  Oh and safari, I don't use iTunes.  Every other program I use (wave editor, melodyne, Plogue Bidule) has it's own options for output.  It's mainly Logic Pro that pulls sample rate all the time when I change projects, but I'm about to uninstall it because it is SO tremendously buggy.  I really think that the sample rate issue has to do with how much logic sucks.  If the madi card does follow the master clock, which it does about 1/10th of the time, Nuendo for instance follows right along, Logic does not...

Anyway, I am doing an experiment with my computers default output to see if this is what's causing the hang-up.  It's probably not even RME's fault.  They seem to build solid stuff.  I am just hoping that they will chime in and offer an explanation.

Peace,
Brian

6

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

bmdaugherty wrote:

Ok there are 4 sample rates I work with.  44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, and 96kHz.  Your saying I can't switch between those 4 rates using WC?  Why not?

Because with ADAT the number of channels changes, screwing up your whole system without a proper reset. Not to mention your DAW software, which might just puke when changing the sample rate in realtime from outside.

bmdaugherty wrote:

The signal at the BNC input can be Single, Dou-
ble or Quad Speed, the HDSPe MADI automatically adapts to it.

Yes, adapt. Not follow. As mentioned in the manual you can clock your 48 kHz session with WC 48 kHz, 96 kHz or 192 kHz.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

What does ADAT have to do with anything?  I have no adat.  My converters always have 28 channels available at the 4 sample rates I listed.  NO channel count changes for me!  Excuse me for being adept, but come on. Adapt and follow have different meaning...Ok fine.  As I mentioned you keep stating that all of this is so clearly laid out in the manual, but I see NO PAGE NUMBERS.  I already looked to the manual for an explanation when you cited it as a reference the first time.  I don't know where you are finding this stuff.

Also, I am not an idiot.  It's not like I just change sample rate during playback.  Seriously, is this really not possible?  All I do every day is mix.  Mix and produce... with artists of all genres.  Some bring in tracks, and some we start from scratch.  Either way, my sample rate varies from project to project.  Why is it so much to ask that if I close a project and flip a switch on my master clock, (which the madi card is SUPPOSED to slave to), that the madi card change to the sample rate I chose?

I still fail to see why this does not work.  If I am slaving to preferred sync setting, (WC) and the preferred sync setting is being properly detected, why does the sample rate not just switch?  Is this not the logical outcome?

Alright I'm off to reread the manual...

I expected you all to help, not tell me how what I want to do is stupid.  All I want to do is change sample rates between projects by changing my master clock.  All my other gear works in this fashion.

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

Never mind ADAT, but there is a difference between changing sample rates from 44 to 48 and from 48 to 96. The MADI card does reduce the number of channels at 96 k, and the entire mixer configuration changes. This is something you don't really want to happen in mid-operation... fryingpan

Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

IT'S NOT MID OPERATION.  I don't know where you guys are getting that.  I finish a song, need to work on another one.  I close a session, bring control room volume to -? and switch sample rates, then bring up the next session.  How else do you guys do it?  Is there some sacred protocol for changing sample rates or something?  I mean you guys are talking like I just am listening to a session and say "oops, I think I'll change to 96 now, it will sound better that way."  I AM NOT AN IDIOT.

Also, like I said, I only have 28 channels of conversion hooked up, so the mixer really does not change at all.  Everything beyond channel 28 has been unrouted, so really there are just a bunch of extra faders that serve no purpose.  (None of my gear goes beyond 96 so I never deal with only 14 channels.)

Can you guys just help me, instead of nitpicking my workflow?  If this is not possible, just say, sorry, the current RME drivers are incapable of this mode of operation.  I will understand that this is just how it was designed, even if it doesn't make sense to me.  A point worth making though is what other gear do you guys own that when you set it to slave to word clock, you still have to manually change the sample rate?

Also, whenever you reference the manual, LIST A PAGE NUMBER.  I would really like to read the words for myself. 

Please no more BS, I understand how digital audio works, I understand how madi works, and word clock.  I just want to know what the mindset behind the sample rate acting the way it does.  If nobody can answer with solid theory, a page in the manual, or some other clear response to my actual question, please do not respond to this thread.  I never dreamed that it would be so hard to get such a simple answer. 

I am just looking for clarity on the existing mode of operation, not excuses as to why something cant be done.  If you want to make excuses, make this one: Thats how it was designed, here's why it was designed that way: _________________________.  Thats all I am after.

I am sorry to sound so harsh, it's just that you guys seem to think I am totally clueless.  I don't know how to get it through to you.  Nor do I know where you get off treating your professional client base like this.  You are not being professional.  I am in the madi/aes PREMIUM line forum right? Maybe if I had a FF400 or something I would expect the digital audio lesson, but I own RME's most expensive HDSPe card.  Support it as such.  I guess I'll have to wait for Jeff to get back.

10

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

Usually when you load a different project it both includes and sets the correct sample rate. So if you change the external WC nothing happens immediately, but when the project loads the card will set 96 kHz and then sync to WC again (as the setting is still on AutoSync). This of course will not happen when you use Safari, only with Logic and similar software.

I have no clue why it does not work like that right now for you, but opening the Audio-MIDI Setup to set the new samplerate does not sound like a terrible workaround to me.

BTW, you should read the whole thread again. IMHO you are completely off-track by accusing us to do whatever you think we do. This is clearly not the case as any unbiased reader will note. Fact is you gave incomplete information, and we gave correct answers. The note about ADAT was just an example, the same happens in MADI as you know. I mentioned it just to show that it is a general problem for all interfaces. And btw, the note about system sounds did not come from us.

Finally we could not answer quickly due to holidays and fairs, but after that we even checked your setup in our Mac system to make sure everything really works as expected. If all this is unprofessional then I don't know what 'professional' would be.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

Is this what you are talking about?

From the manual: (page 32 of the paper manual)

The HDSPe MADI's outstanding clock control allows for a synchronization of the output signal
to the word clock's input signal not only at identical sample rates, but also at half, quarter, dou-
ble and quad sample rates. A playback of 96 kHz can easily be synchronized via a 48 kHz word
clock signal.

The thing is that if I have a master clock, my converters, transports, decks, reverbs, and console have already switched, so EVERY other piece of gear in my studio already matches the master clock, making this confusing.

The manual also says this:  (page 38)

The word clock output of the HDSPe MADI is constantly active, providing the current sample
frequency as word clock signal. As a result, in Master mode the provided word clock is defined
by the currently used software or the DDS dialog. In Slave mode the provided frequency is iden-
tical to the one present at the currently chosen clock input.
When the current clock signal fails,
the HDSPe MADI switches to Master mode and adjusts itself to the next, best matching fre-
quency (44.1 kHz, 48 kHz etc.).

This is false. (part in bold) I present the card with 96 at the WC input, but the WC output WILL NOT match until I switch it manually.


I read the manual cover to cover and the first excerpt is the only thing that I find that would support your argument. 

Peace,
Brian

Re: MADI card will not follow sr change from master clock.

bmdaugherty wrote:

I close a session, bring control room volume to -? and switch sample rates, then bring up the next session.

... and hit playback or record, and the card will switch. Done.

Also, like I said, I only have 28 channels of conversion hooked up, so the mixer really does not change at all.

Other users may run more channels. Whichever way, the mixer does change, namely from 64 to 32 channels. This also means that the software will need to readjust, regardless of how many channels you are actually using.

I just want to know what the mindset behind the sample rate acting the way it does.

I believe that's been covered quite clearly. The switch between sample rate ranges by way of WCK input is not supported.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME