Topic: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

Hi,

I'd like to know if PCIe x4 x8 x16 Slots are really usable without problems for RME HDSPe cards?

I know the standard answer in common forums that this is only the number of lanes and that the PCIe interface is backward compatible. But what confuses me though are several descriptions of ASUS and Gigabyte mainboards like these 
- PCIe 2.0 x16   (also usable for x8 and x4)
- PCIe x8 (also usable for x4)

What I miss everywhere "also usable for x1"
Is this left out intentionally? Or is it that trivial that a x1 card will ALWAYS work in the multi lane slots?

There seems to be no mechanical obstacle to plug a PCIe x1 card into one of the bigger slots.
But is there any electrical obstacle? I suppose not.

I'd like to buy a HDSPe AES card and I'd like to plug it into the PCIe x4 slot of a MSI PD55-GD65
or into the second PCIe x16 slot (electrically 8x only) of a Gigabyte GA-P55A-UD4 mainboard.

The reason not to use a PCIe x1 is that I already plan use it for my RME HDSPe AIO and I'd like to keep this one away from the graphics adapter card and from the power supply. The second PCIe x1 is covered by the cooler of the graphics card and the third one is too far away from the next free slot so that I coudn't connect the sisterboard of the RME HDSPe AES card.

And how about stability in function, how about interferences with other cards, how about jitter when using the PCIe slots with more lanes? Probably there's nothing to fear, but I'd like to be SURE.

Greetz
Volker
hqmusic

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

It work very well on pci express 16x. I use mine to feed a external high end DAc. The sound is much better in the 16x slot and mostly with a p55 motherbord (because the processor control directly the pci 16x slot)

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

Atom wrote:

The sound is much better in the 16x slot and mostly with a p55 motherbord (because the processor control directly the pci 16x slot)

The "Sound" should not be one iota different versus a PCIe x1 or even an "ancient" PCI.  Now - Low Latency scaling might vary - but sound quality in itself won't...

As far as which is better for Latency and CPU Scaling - you'd probably have to try as the disk will need to access that I/O just like the CPU and RAM will.  Probably boils down to which would have the least latency as we know the actual bandwidth requirements are TINY compared to PCIe 2.0's 250MB/s max bandwidth - it's all about the latency)

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
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Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

If I tell that I hear differences, you may change your mind.

I know RME tell everywhere that there is no noise improvement with differents digital card. I can teell you that the RMS HDSP are vastly superior to the lynx AES 16 pci for exemple.

And the sound is best on a pci express 16x and not because this is a 16x port but because this graphic port is directly conected to the processor (less jitter I presume).

I have a very high end system and the differences are obvoius!

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

HI Atom,
The "sound" difference is coming from either RME's Steady Clock technology improving your audio clock. Your converters, cabling or Lynx card where introducing clock jitter that the RME is removing or decreasing. The only way the PCI or PCI-e slots would be effecting thing would be general compatibility issues between your Lynx card and you motherboard. But this would normally only seems as clicks and pops or crashes.

Chris

Chris Ludwig | ADK Pro Audio
www.adkproaudio.com
https://www.facebook.com/adkmg

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

steady clock is for incoming digital data, not for internal clock generated by the tcxo. An incompatibility results in no sounds or pops and click: I talk about transparency, detail, sound staging, tonal accurency.... You can tell me that these improvement does not exist but I heard them. It was the same things about the digital cable. There was some people who tell that we can't hear diffenrences because it's digital (0 and 1) . But when you tried a low cost spdif cable and a high end AES cable there is a clear difference. The digital path is more complicated than theory....

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

Not sure what you are hearing here, but before everybody will start shifting all-digital audio cards in search for better sound, the official position is that there is no way the PCIe slot can affect sound quality. THere is also no way there can be a difference between RME and Lynx in terms of "noise", provided the configuration is correct.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

8 (edited by Atom 2010-05-05 16:41:06)

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

Obviously I don't talk about Noise but about sound quality (tonal accurency, sound texture, transparency). I don't kwow why RME still refuse theses kind of experiments and experiences. If digital can't affect the sound why have you build a so refined power stage to feed the crystal oscillator? wink

It's amasing I tell that RME is a better product and the brand tell that is not true, It's a first time to me. HeadScratch

9 (edited by Randyman... 2010-05-05 20:30:21)

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

Do you also subscribe to the theory (cough cough  fryingpan ) that different HD's sound different, and AMD and Intel also sound different?  It is all chunks of data at this level - clocking as in reference to a digital audio stream is not even involved at this level AFAIK (that is handled on the card itself with a crysta, SteadySync, and/or PLL's - certainly not being fed from a MoBo PCIe clock)...  The Audio Clock and the PCIe Bus clock have no correlation (as long as the PCIe clock is getting that data to the card in a timely manner - otherwise dropouts would occur). 

What happens when you raise the PCIe clock to 105MHz?  Does the audio change or speed up?  Nope wink

If RME takes a similar stance (as they loosely stated above), then I don't think your theory holds any water - if you don't mind me saying so HeadScratch

Now - the fact that the PCIe x16 slots in i5 and i7 platforms talk directly to the CPU might have some performance and low-latency scaling implications - but no effect on actual SQ IMNSHO...



cool

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2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

10 (edited by Atom 2010-05-05 21:08:46)

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

Ok! I've call my mechanics to order new ears because it seems that mine are defective: I found  my Focal Utopia better than my 100$ stereo. it 's a nonsense: A speaker is a speaker, a voice coil is a voice coil, copper is coper and electron is electron.  you're right: there must be no differences. Drop down you brain and your pocket calculator and listen. There will no better judge than your (my) ears, nevermind your (my) theory...


another fool who noticed the same thing than me but with a lynx
http://canhtpcbeatcd.blogspot.com/2008/ … sound.html

11 (edited by Randyman... 2010-05-05 22:41:24)

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

There is a market for Shakti Stones as well wink

http://www.shakti-innovations.com/audiovideo.htm

Green Markers are also a "must have" tweak smile

So why doesn't the sound change if you change the PCIe bus frequency?  If the PCIe bus clock and the Audio Wordclock are intrinsically linked - you SHOULD hear some type of difference in the sound - no?  What about if you overclock your FSB/QPI and CPU Clock Speed?  Why don't AMD's sound different from Intels since the "signal path" ( wink ) is WAY different betwen them? wink  This part of the data stream is not "linear" - it is chunks of data sent across asynchronus busses.  Once the sound card recieved these chunks - it buffers them slightly - and spits them out to the card's OWN crystal or PLL - the incoming chunks of data will not affect what the card spits out as the 2 clocks don't interact.

Speakers are ANALOG TRANSDUCERS - AD/DA's are also ANALOG to an extent and actually QUANTIZE the ANALOG audio into DIGITAL bits.  Do you think the original wordclock timing is somehow transmitted along with the digital packets through the CPU and RAM?  Nope - the original digital wordclock signal has NO AFFILIATION with the digital packets or "chunks" that our CPU's process.  Once the CPU processes these packets - it sends them back through an asynchronus bus to the PCI(e) audio card.  THEN the audio card re-clocks these packets using ITS' OWN CLOCK OR PLL (not the CPU or PCIe bus clock) to form a Linear PCM type stream.  Now that the stream is actually Linear PCM - the clock will absolutely matter - but ONLY at the DAC (where the actual conversion happens from PCM to Analog).  The only way I know of a PCIe bus affecting Audio SQ is if the PCI bus can't keep up with the bandwidth (dropouts) or has unacceptable interrupt requests that also cause dropout.

I think I'll trust the people who design and manufacture these fine products over someone's "Golden Ears" any day.  PCIe vs PCIe x16 vs PCI will have no difference to the PCM digital signal - and even if it DID (which it doesn't) - the DAC's clock and ability to deal with jitter is what really matters (or more importantly - the ADC's clock is most crucial in the capturing process).  The original thread topic was about PCIe x1 vs PCIe x16 performance and reliability, not SQ wink

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

FWIW - The "evidence" (link) you posted clearly states these lovely "Facts":

Asus P5Q Deluxe sounds better than Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L
Underclock as much as possible. Using E7200, the difference between 2.53Ghz and 1.2Ghz is clearly audible.
Use fastest possible RAM at 3-3-3-9. RAM clock at 3-3-3-9 and 5-5-5-15 is audible difference. Prefer to get Kingston HyperX top model 4G RAM.
Overvoltage South Bridge and North Bridge for about 5%
Interface PCI-E better than PCI better than Firewire better than USB

rotfl

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

13 (edited by Atom 2010-05-06 11:39:51)

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

Don't waste your keyboard! I already tell you that page of theory don't interest me. If I found that a piano sound better with my RME on pci express than a linx on a pci, you can write 100000 word to tell me is faulse, I will kept my RME DeadHorse. Have you made the experiments I've made? No I'm sure so don't be so assumptive...
There is a lot of peolple and journalist who hear differences beetween digital cable, Can you write me why? It's a nonsense: It's digital: 0 and 1...
rotfl too

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

Hi,

Atom wrote:

Ok! I've call my mechanics to order new ears because it seems that mine are defective: I found  my Focal Utopia better than my 100$ stereo. it 's a nonsense: A speaker is a speaker, a voice coil is a voice coil, copper is coper and electron is electron.  you're right: there must be no differences.

This is obviously not comparable. Different materials will behave mechanically different. But bits are bits...


Drop down you brain and your pocket calculator and listen.

Ok, how do you compare mainboards? By building two otherwise identical systems for an AB test? How do you rule out expectation bias?

The list you posted could not complete without the statement of a customer who told me  that XP SP2 sounded so much more "relaxed" than SP1...

And a recent test in a german hifi magazine compared the sound quality of CAT5 cabes used for TCP based audio transfer. Which means a digital signal embedded into a data protocol. But still, they claimed that there were audible differences.

Sorry, we simply don't indulge in discussions of this nature. If you wish to continue this, please move the discussion to Gearslutz or another general audio related forum.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs

RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

And this is straight from RME's mouth wink  I agree - this is a "Fact" based forum - take the fairy dust and unicorn tears to Gearslutz or to any Audiophile forum in the world - they would love to tell you that you're right - and give you a thousand reasons why (all of which are not rooted in anything resembling an accurate reality) smile .  They will also tell you why Shakti Stones have a substantial impact on your sound rotfl

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

Re: PCIe x4 x8 x16 slots really usable w/o problems for RME HDSPe cards?

It's amasing I tell that RME is a better product and the brand tell that is not true, It's a first time to me.

I think you misunderstand this part: RME is of course a better product.

best regards
Knut