1 Topic by sarmad_dehnadi (edited by sarmad_dehnadi 2010-08-10 12:01:17)

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Topic: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Hi everybody

I have just upgraded from EMU 1820M to FireFace800. After uninstalling the Emu drivers I installed the ff800 with the latest driver(3.016) and firmware(2.77).

After a clear installation on my windows 7 64bit , I launched the sonar 8.5.3 64bit and I noticed a strange behavior. The Sonar launched with a significant delay and then all the buttons and commands in Sonar( play, arm for record, quantize, audio dialogs, forward, rewind and so many others)  acted with some seconds delay. I used the ASIO with all different latency values but I noticed no change.

I installed the ff800 on Windows XP 32bit sp3 and the  SONAR 8.5.3 32BIT behavior, was exactly the same If not even worse.

I didn't have this problem with my EMU 1820M and I should say that I'm not new to computer recording. The main reason I purchased ff800 is that I had heard a lot of good things about RME driver stability but this problem simply frustrated me.

Mainboard :  ASUS  m4n72-E (NVIDIA nForce 750a SLI)

CPU: AMD ATHLON  6000X2

RAM : 4 X 2GB CROSSAIR

Can any one help me with this issue ?

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

I had a FF800 (now I have UC cause I need less inputs) and used it with XP Pro 32 SP3/Sonar Producer 8.5.3 32 with my old DAW, 7 Ultimate 64/Sonar Producer 8.5.3 64 with my new DAW and saw perhaps one time the behavior you described under XP but unfortunately, as it happened only once, I don't remember why (a reboot should solved the problem for me but it seems it's not your case).

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

yes. its about two weeks that i have this problem. from the day one!!!!!

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

I started my Sonar today to see if I can reproduce your issues (FF400 here). Well, not exactly. I also had delays, but I also had *no* sound.

What did *not* help: Changing the default sound output device of Windows 7 (64-bit).

What *did* help: Installing driver version 2.99 over 3.015 = sound in Sonar ASIO came back.

From there on I could install any version of the FF drivers (3.0, 3.015, 3.016) without having any further problems in Sonar.

You should try the following:

- Uninstall 3.016, reboot, then reinstall 3.016.
- Reinstall 3.016 without uninstall, reboot.
- Uninstall 3.016, reboot, install 2.99, reboot.
- Install 2.99, reboot.

The latter is what helped me, but I did not try the other options first. You should try them first, because installing 2.99 over 3.016 means that you have to manually remove the RUN registry entries later (else Fireface settings dialog will pop up with every reboot).

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Just to mention it, only ASIO is usable with the FF and Sonar now, no WDM/KS, no MME and no WASAPI (all of these work with the onboard Realtek).

6 Reply by MC

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

The delay problem also happens with Sound Forge, we will fix that soon.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Thanks for the replies. I hope I can use my ff800 with SONAR as fast as possible.

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

If I downgrade the driver to 2.99 will my FF800 work well with SONAR? Which firmware version should I use?

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic … 838#p42838

10 Reply by arash_hsa (edited by arash_hsa 2010-08-16 16:54:27)

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Hi RME
Would you please take care of this delay problem in Sonar as soon as possible?
We are waiting for the solution.
Regards
Arash

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Just to mention it: Once I had sound back there was no delay anymore, neither in 32-bit nor 64-bit Sonar 8.5.

12 Reply by bysbox (edited by bysbox 2010-08-17 04:41:52)

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

I have had a same problem with the latest RME driver 3.016, the Fireface 800 and Sonar with a bit of a twist.  When I launch Sonar launched there is a huge delay and all the buttons and knobs run with a delay as well.  This is in ASIO.

If I attempt to use WDM (which with the old driver seemed to work better with Sonar) It will not use any of the device channels.  It tells me the that "the device driver does not support the current format, or are in use by another application."  There is no sound because it will not engage the device channels.

Rebooting does not help for either WDM or ASIO.

Also I get VERY high CPU usage out of the new drivers in ASIO.  Projects that normally would load in Sonar with about 25-30 percent CPU usage with the old drivers now run at 45-55%.  Because of the delay it takes a minute or two for Sonar to even play.  Sonar has not changed, and I even tried the highest driver latency (1024 samples).

If I uninstall the 3.016 drivers, remove the drivers from my computer, then install the 2.9992 drivers everything works fine.  So it's not Sonar.

Also the Interleave setting is now removed from the new driver GUI.  I used to the above error on my Multiface (and on the Fireface 800 when I first got it) if I left Interveave "on." now I have no way of disabling it.

There is definitely something buggy with ASIO, WDM and the newer drivers.

13 Reply by MC

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

3.017 is out, try it.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

First I tested the 3.017 driver  with Windows XP 32bit SP3 and SONAR 8.5.3  32bit . The behavior was as before. A long delay from the launch of application till any other command in side sonar was noticeable . So I should say that the Fireface 800 is not operable with sonar 8.5.3 32bit ON WINDOWS XP 32bit, at least with the recent drivers.

Then I tested the new driver with WINDOWS 7 64bit and SONAR 8.5.3  64bit. I saw improvement. The delay was almost gone but there was still a small amount of delay with the playback, arm recording, and also while skipping to next measure in playback mode. All together I should say that the driver still needs improvement. I had better experience with the EMU drivers and I'm sure that RME can reach  a better performance than the EMU because it's a superior hardware.

Thanks RME support team

We still need better driver for SONAR  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

15 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2010-08-18 11:51:33)

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

FF400 with 3.017 with Sonar 8.5.3 32-bit and 64-bit on Windows 7 64-bit

ASIO: Works with all buffer sizes and no delay (I don't have any big project to test it with though).

32-bit Sonar (like any other 32-bit application on 64-bit Windows) still cannot open the FF's settings dialog on its own, but can bring it to front if it's already open in the background (like before).

WDM/KS: Cannot get it to work at all, tried both exclusive and non-exclusive system settings. According to Sonar the driver either does not support the current format or is in use by another application.

Sonar's Wave Profiler reports the FF400 as "8 Channels - 32 bit". Channels are names as "Fireface Analog (1+2) 1/2 to 7/8" and then Fireface Analog (3+4) to (7+8)" (like it has always been anyway). My guess is that Sonar is not able to access single channel pairs due to the changes from old "Interleave" mode to the current system?!

WASAPI: Works again, but only down to 4 ms (I'm sure I successfully used lower settings in the past, but maybe that was with the FF UC). Channels are correctly reported as 2 channel / 24-bit.

If any setting lower than 4 ms is chosen Sonar cannot access the the FF anymore (format not supported or in use by another application).

If any setting lower than 11 ms is chosen Buffer Size has to be *lowered* via the FF's own settings dialog (128 samples for 10 to 7 ms with a single instance of Additive Drums running, 64 samples for 4 - 6 ms).

If any setting higher than 10 ms is chosen the FF's buffer size doesn't seem to matter.

When the FF's settings dialog is *not* open while changing settings in Sonar it often happens that the Buffer Size is reset to 256 samples (as stored in Flash).

MME: Works again. Can be used down to 40 ms latency (2 buffers used), anything lower wont work here.

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Timur wrote:

WDM/KS: Cannot get it to work at all, tried both exclusive and non-exclusive system settings. According to Sonar the driver either does not support the current format or is in use by another application.

Sonar's Wave Profiler reports the FF400 as "8 Channels - 32 bit". Channels are names as "Fireface Analog (1+2) 1/2 to 7/8" and then Fireface Analog (3+4) to (7+8)" (like it has always been anyway). My guess is that Sonar is not able to access single channel pairs due to the changes from old "Interleave" mode to the current system?!

I see the same thing here.  And I would suspect that it's an interleave issue as well.

I am sort of damned if I do and damed if I don't.  Sonar seems to work better with WDM/KS.  If I use the old driver 2.9992, it gives me fits and will BSOD with an IRQL_GT_SYSTEM_SERVICE.  If I use the latest dirver it does not blue screen but WDM/KS does dot work . . . rant

17 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2010-08-18 18:58:55)

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

I'd say that since Sonar 8 ASIO works just as good if not better than WDM/KS, at least in combination with RME drivers. But I'm only running Sonar for testing and not for day-to-day work in practice so my experience in somewhat limited.

Concerning your BSOD with older drivers:

1) Make sure you are either running with the "High Performance" Windows power-profile active or manually set the PCI Express power-saving feature to OFF. Even if you are running on battery in between or change the profile it may lead to crashes later (the Firewire port is connected to the PCI Express bus).

2) To find out if there is a culprit/compatibility problem: Change your graphic-card driver to the Microsoft "Standard VGA Driver" via Device-Manager and try again.

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Timur wrote:

I'd say that since Sonar 8 ASIO works just as good if not better than WDM/KS, at least in combination with RME drivers. But I'm only running Sonar for testing and not for day-to-day work in practice so my experience in somewhat limited.

Concerning your BSOD with older drivers:

1) Make sure you are either running with the "High Performance" Windows power-profile active or manually set the PCI Express power-saving feature to OFF. Even if you are running on battery in between or change the profile it may lead to crashes later (the Firewire port is connected to the PCI Express bus).

2) To find out if there is a culprit/compatibility problem: Change your graphic-card driver to the Microsoft "Standard VGA Driver" via Device-Manager and try again.

I seem to get higher CPU usage with ASIO than I do with WDM.  That's with the Fireface 800.  With my Multiface it runs okay.

I am running with a High Performance power profile.  The PCI express power saving feature is off.  It's part of my things to do tweaks . . .

I never thought of video. I have never had problems with my video before, but as I said before that was with my Multiface II.  I'll change the driver for a bit and see how it runs.  It's not an immediate blue screen, it's about an hour after I have been running sonar.

19 Reply by MC

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

We added a workaround so that Sonar sees our devices again. Please try version 3.018:

https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/win_fire_3018.zip

Regards
Matthias Carstens
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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

MC wrote:

We added a workaround so that Sonar sees our devices again. Please try version 3.018:

https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/win_fire_3018.zip

Cool. I will test this over the weekend.  I was planning on swapping devices over the weekend, I have a second computer with my old reliable Multiface II on it.  But I will try the new driver first.

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

MC wrote:

We added a workaround so that Sonar sees our devices again. Please try version 3.018:

https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/win_fire_3018.zip

Okay I installed the new driver, launched Sonar, and I had the same problem as before.   Sonar sees the driver fine, but  Sonar the driver either does not support the current format or is in use by another application.  It disables all of the channels.

I will be swapping back to my Multiface II over the weekend and will put this on my secondary computer. My second computer is just for samples and My high CPU VSTi's.  My second computer uses little IO, runs in ASIO and I think the driver will hold up under less strenuous conditions.  I'll just wait it out until you get the driver issues sorted.  Thank goodness I kept my Multiface!

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

bysbox wrote:
MC wrote:

We added a workaround so that Sonar sees our devices again. Please try version 3.018:

https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/win_fire_3018.zip

Okay I installed the new driver, launched Sonar, and I had the same problem as before.   Sonar sees the driver fine, but  Sonar the driver either does not support the current format or is in use by another application.  It disables all of the channels.

I will be swapping back to my Multiface II over the weekend and will put this on my secondary computer. My second computer is just for samples and My high CPU VSTi's.  My second computer uses little IO, runs in ASIO and I think the driver will hold up under less strenuous conditions.  I'll just wait it out until you get the driver issues sorted.  Thank goodness I kept my Multiface!

I forgot to add that this error occurs when you attempt to use the driver in WDM/KS mode.  ASIO appears to work, although I did not test the audio.  I will add a screenshot of the error over the weekend.

23 Reply by sarmad_dehnadi (edited by sarmad_dehnadi 2010-08-20 22:13:31)

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

I tested the driver 3.018 on two systems.
1-Windows XP 32bit+ SONAR 8.5.3  32bit : It still has a massive delay on this system. WDM driver still does not work properly. ASIO sucks a big time as well. no difference between 3.016 and 3.018 regarding the ASIO driver

2- WINDOWS 7 64bit+ SONAR 8.5.3  64bit : The delay issue has improved but it's not completely removed.  Under 60% CPU load I hear random crackle and ticks but there's no dropouts. The on-board 1394 CHIP on the mainboard is VIA and I also tried a1394 PCI adapter with NEC CHIP but the result was exactly the same . WDM driver does not work properly and it's not usable.

Just to make sure I'm going to install a fresh copy of both WINDOWS on a Intel based machine and see the results.

Conclusion: It seems that the FF800 has a long way to be operable in SONAR. Of course I purchased this unit about three weeks ago and I'm not aware Of the SONAR support history but It appears that the RME support team had forgotten about SONAR, other wise how it is possible that after 6 years of manufacturing of FF800 there is not a useful driver that works well with SONAR even on WINDOWS XP?

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

It's not like it didn't work for 6 years, I successfully used WDM/KS in the past. It must have been broken along the way of driver development or changes in Sonar. WDM/KS in Reaper is usable with the very same driver so it's a special problem of the combination Sonar and Fireface drivers.

25 Reply by alexoosthoek (edited by alexoosthoek 2010-08-20 23:13:31)

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Nevermind

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26 Reply by MC

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

sarmad_dehnadi wrote:

there is not a useful driver that works well with SONAR even on WINDOWS XP?

Just install the fully matured and Sonar compatible driver 2.9xxx from our website if you use XP, until the 3 series driver is fixed.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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27 Reply by sarmad_dehnadi (edited by sarmad_dehnadi 2010-08-21 05:50:45)

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

I have to apologize everybody here especially the RME support team. I never tested driver version 2.9992 and after installing this driver on the WINDOWS XP, everything was OK. The ASIO driver was fast, stable and so far, bug free. there was not any type of delay, ticks or pops. I recorded 10 analog tracks simultaneously for 2 minutes and it was totally OK.
CPU usage was low and the sound was Cristal clear.

From now on this performance( driver 2.9992 + XP 32bit + SONAR 8.5.3  32bit) will be my reference point to compare the driver version 3.xxx on WINDOWS 7  64bit to.

I'm still waiting for the windows 7 driver 'cos my main workstation is based on it.


Thanks RME and again sorry.

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

The driver 2.9992 is usable with Windows 7, just try it.

29 Reply by MC

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Timur wrote:

WASAPI: Works again, but only down to 4 ms (I'm sure I successfully used lower settings in the past, but maybe that was with the FF UC). Channels are correctly reported as 2 channel / 24-bit.

If any setting lower than 4 ms is chosen Sonar cannot access the the FF anymore (format not supported or in use by another application).

Sonar comes with a readme file, and as with our readmes it always pays to read those:

Cakewalk wrote: In WASAPI mode if you set the audio latency lower than 4 milliseconds, you will get an error message that the audio device does not support the current format. This is a known bug in the shipping version of Windows 7 and has been reported to Microsoft.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Hehe, that makes sense. I knew I used Wasapi with latencies lower than 4 ms before, but obviously this must have been on Vista. As for the Readme, I usually only fire Sonar up to test RME drivers and only installed the latest updates without taking a look at any Readmes. I promise to do better next time. :-? wink

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Timur wrote:

The driver 2.9992 is usable with Windows 7, just try it.

I tried it with windows 7 64bit. It has delay, ticks and high CPU usage. The performance can not be compared to windows XP 32bit.

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

BTW, version 3.018 does work with Sonar. You just have to make sure that under Options Audio General the bit depth is set to 24. Using the former 3.x driver Sonar reverted this setting to 16 bit. 16 bit does currently not work with 3.018. We are checking that too.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
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33 Reply by sarmad_dehnadi (edited by sarmad_dehnadi 2010-08-22 19:58:07)

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

I did a comparison between ASIO performance of the WINDOWS 7 64bit   and   WINDOWS XP 32bit . I did the test on the same machine.
The test included 40 tracks of audio at 88.2 KHz, 24 bit and buffer size of 512. On each track I loaded a SONITUS compressor and 4 bands of SONITUS eq. The result is as below:

WINDOWS 7 64bit + SONAR 8.5.3 64bit : With both driver versions(2.9992 & 3.018) the result was the same. CPU usage was 57%  with crackle and clicks. Each type of graphical movements of the tracks or even mouse caused clicks and noise even forward or rewind during playback caused the same thing .

WINDOWS XP 32 bit + SONAR 8.5.3 32bit : I just used driver version 2.9992 and the CPU usage was 53% and there was no clicks and noise at all even with graphical movements. The performance was as stable as possible.


Coclusion : I don't know if there is something wrong with the WINDOWS 7 or not. I uses the latest drivers and Bios for My PC and the hardware is relatively good. I accept that my graphic Card which is Gforce 7200 is not a powerful one  but it works Ok on XP. I just suspect the FF800 driver for the WINDOWS 7 because before purchasing the FF800 I was using EMU 1820M with the same WINDOWS 7 and I didn't have a problem  like this.

34 Reply by MC

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Sorry, but the problems with Windows 7 (plus the solutions) fill this forum, you simply did not do your homework. And the EMU is a PCI interface, which can not be compared to a FireWire interface.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

The performance of the FF800 on XP WAS identical to EMU 1820M if not any better so it's not the matter of PCI vs Firewire. I just have problem on WINDOWS 7 not XP. Of course I did all the necessary tweaks for windows 7 BUT it's possible that I missed some solutions . My main problem is Higher CPU usage in WINDOWS 7 compared to XP + some sort of conflict between ASIO and graphic in WINDOWS 7 which does not exist on XP. Can you tell me what did I miss?

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Should I still have to wait for a better driver for WINDOWS 7 64bit ?

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Post a DPC Latency test result please.

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Sorry but what is DPC?

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

DPC

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Windows driver 3.020 adds 16 bit WDM KS mode for Sonar.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

DPC showed me a lot. on XP the average latency was 15 micro second while on WINDOWS 7 64bit it was 85 micro second. I uninstall the RME driver on WINDOWS 7 but  nothing changed. I did all I could in device manager to find out the source of this extra 70 Micro second latency , but I didn't succeed. I believ I should have a clean WINDOWS 7 install and do everything from scratch.

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

85 microsec is just as perfect as 15, anything below 300 usually is good enough anyway. Don't you get any red peaks? Does it make any difference whether you activate MMCSS in Sonar or not?

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

In normal situation there is no pick. MMCSS was active during the test. The only thing which makes difference and make me aware about the inferior performance of the "7" compared to "XP" was  when I want to move the trackS or busses  in track view or when I open a VST interface, in other words graphical activities leads to crackle and pop some times even mouse movements results the same thing.

Uninstlling the RME driver and turning off FF800 , I'm sure that this is not the fault of RME driver though before instillation the FF800 I did not have this problem or at least I didn't notice.

I did all the tweaks to get the best performance out of the WINDOWS 7. Maybe I should change some hardwares !!!!

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Just to make sure: Please post a screenshot of your DPC reading when the computer is idle and the FF is not connected (Sonar not running) and one with Sonar and the FF running.

Do you use the "High Performance" power-profile?

Also try turning both Aero and MMCSS off. Does it make a difference?

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

MC wrote:

Windows driver 3.020 adds 16 bit WDM KS mode for Sonar.

Why not 24 bit?

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

Timur wrote:

Just to make sure: Please post a screenshot of your DPC reading when the computer is idle and the FF is not connected (Sonar not running) and one with Sonar and the FF running.

Do you use the "High Performance" power-profile?

Also try turning both Aero and MMCSS off. Does it make a difference?

OK. I'll do it today.

47 Reply by MC

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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

sarmad_dehnadi wrote:
MC wrote:

Windows driver 3.020 adds 16 bit WDM KS mode for Sonar.

Why not 24 bit?

Why not try before write? Or read my post number 32?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • From: Tehran- Iran
  • Registered: 2010-08-10
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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

MC wrote:
sarmad_dehnadi wrote:
MC wrote:

Windows driver 3.020 adds 16 bit WDM KS mode for Sonar.

Why not 24 bit?

Why not try before write? Or read my post number 32?

I always use ASIO. I just asked out of the curiosity to know if there is any limitation.  Sorry man !!!! There's no need to beat me !!!!!!!!:lol:

49 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur 2010-08-24 17:27:32)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
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Re: Fire face 800 + Sonar 8.5.3 + Windows 7 64bit problem

What Matthias meant is that 24-bit WDM/KS was already working anyway. Well, kind of, because for me it did not, but now I managed to make WDM/KS work.

What I did was to reset the AUD.INI configuration file (can be done via Sonar's AUDIO Preferences) and play around with WASAPI (which sometimes did not work properly, then again it did). My guess is that the AUD.INI reset did it.

I will check the .20 driver once I find time and report back.