• Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Topic: Mixer and Matrix

I've got signals coming in and going out (I think) to where I want them....

but I'm struggling to understand how the mixer works and/or is the matrix helping me

I'm using Digital Producer (although I'm guessing that's not all that important)

As I added a new tracks -which all have outputs of 1/2- I arm the track in DP, when I see the level in the top row of FF Mixer, I select that track and set fader to 0 (as a starting point)

In the second row, I'll admit I'm not all that sure what do do with it, as I'm using SPDIF to send the master fader output to my control monitors.... I select 1 and 2 and set the faders (or do i select 11/12?)

then I move to the bottom row, I select SP L and right and set the level, (uncheck?) move to the analog out (example 3) I want for the headphone matrix mixer and set the level (I'm unchecking the SP L/R as it seems if everything checked seems to be effected by the movement of another fader?...right

am I supposed to be highlighting cells in the matrix? this doesn't seem to have any effect on where my signals are being sent....  at least tonight

so - if the settings in the FF Mixer don't affect the levels in DP... and with the exception of my SP L/R and AN 1/2 outs (analog 1/2 aren't physically patched anywhere. SPDIF is physically patched, as it the outputs to the headphone matrix mixer.....  does it matter how I pan the individual tracks in DP as far as the actual signal path outputs from  the FF 800?

I hope I've explained this well enough to make some sense....

Thanks in advance

  • From: Germany
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5039

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

Okie Dokie- after watching the tutorial 9a couple of times) and re-reading the manual again...

I still don't undesrtand what the bottom of the matrix is for relative to the top?

but, I'm assuming I would select intersections in the upper grid as follows

I'm using SPDIF output for my control room monitors (which is output 9/10... right?)

Drums use inputs 1,2 and ADAT1-1,2,3,4:   I would "check" the out put rows at 9/10, as well as AN3 for each (which is the output to my headphone matrix mixer)

Bass uses ADAT1-8: outputs checked are 4 and 9/10

Guitar uses ADAT1-7; outputs 5, 9/10

Vocals use AN5,6,7:  outputs 1/2, 9/10

Keyboards us ADAT1-5,6 - outputs

then I go to mixer, and ... here's where I gert confused, is there a preset I should select? or just go to submix, and starting with  the drums, select the inputs for each, playback outputs select SPDIF, and output AN3 and 9/10, set levels of each fader highlighted

then do i hit save? or what before moving to the bass paths, guitar, etc. Do I uncheck all faders not associated with the next 'path"

do I need to move the pan on each fader (since all but vocals are going to mono outs) to L (if odd output, right if even output)?

and if everything is set for a session- how do i recall this particular set-up?

I know a lot of questions... but soon I hope I'm done asking and maybe I can help someone else!

and.... how do I get a click (if used) from the software - DP into AN 7 or 8 (I know many folks send to 1/2, but not everyone wants to hear it in live situations... often content to follow the drummer)

  • viper
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

Hi stainless,

I assume you did not quite understand the TotalMix concept - so I'll try to explain the basics.

The Mixer and the Matrix are just two different graphical frontends to adjust the routing of the signals. So lets stick to the Mixer first.
In the beginning you should work with "Submix" switched on, because it is a bit easier to work with.
The bottom row of faders are the physical output channels. The first two faders for example adjust the volume on Out1/2 on the back of the unit.
By clicking on a stereo pair of outputs (e.g. 1/2) all the faders and pan-sliders in the first two rows show what is routed to the highlighted physical outputs (1/2).
The first and second row of faders control the level of the physical inputs and software outputs (signals coming from inside of the computer), respectively. So when you raise the fader for In5 (1st row), the signal on Input 5 will be sent to physical output 1.
If you want to route a signal so a single output you need to use the pan-slider as you already wrote above.
After you have adjusted everything for physical outputs 1/2 you may click on the next stereo pair and adjust the faders for these outputs - and so on.

When everything is set up you may save the mixer settings by clickinng on "save" and then one of the preset buttons afterwards. You can recall the saved setup again by hitting the preset button again.

If you are already familiar with the mixer the matrix might be more appropriate in some situations, especially to get a quick overview of all the routings or if the task is to link or unlink certain inputs or software outs (first two rows) to the physical outputs (bottom row) without the need to tamper with the levels.


I hope this helped a bit. Good luck.

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

I've just read the manual again... I'm gaining I think (no pun intended), but I'd like to get arms around this as the above scenario is one that I will use most often, both with my own band and the groups that I take on from the outside world ed:

   first, for my purposes, Control room levels, and headphone mixes are controlled by hardware (other than the FF800) so I'd be setting all faders (used) at 0

so if I understand you correctly- in submix, I do not need to pull all faders down before movint to the next output(s)? and I could set drums and bass at the same time (highlight thouse inputs), and panL for 3 (drums) and R for 4 (bass), then highlighting 5/6 will "ignore" the settings/fader positions of 1/2 , 3/4, 7/8. etc

now if I have the panner hard left/ hard right... isn't that going to skew my playback through the SPDIF? 

and to be clear- the middle row is playback from the software...? so If I have it all set to SPDIF.... does that negate the above concern

Thanks

  • viper
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

Well ok, as you only want to link certain channels to the outputs at 0dBFS, the matrix might be the better tool, in contrast to what I have said in the previous post.

Just link the appropriate inputs and software outputs to the physical outputs where you would like to have the signal.
This is just a click on the right field in the matrix, where the inputs and software outs are sorted in a column from top to bottom and the physical outputs are sorted in a row from left to right.
Clicking on the field "In5/AN4" for example would route the signal at input 5 to the phsyical output 4.
You may "activate" as many fields as you like in any combination you need.


stainless wrote:

so if I understand you correctly- in submix, I do not need to pull all faders down before movint to the next output(s)? and I could set drums and bass at the same time (highlight thouse inputs), and panL for 3 (drums) and R for 4 (bass), then highlighting 5/6 will "ignore" the settings/fader positions of 1/2 , 3/4, 7/8. etc

I don't exactly know what you mean, but I guess I mislead you with the "highlighting" issue.
I didn't meant the possibility to select certain channels to group them (label "IN1", "IN2" or "AN1",... highlighted). In Submix mode by clicking on a stereo pair of physical output faders this pair gets highlighted and the first to rows show what is getting routed to that output pair. As soon as you select a different stereo output pair this is getting highlited (instead of the previous one) and the faeders in the first two rows move and again show what is being routed to the newly selected output.


stainless wrote:

now if I have the panner hard left/ hard right... isn't that going to skew my playback through the SPDIF?

SPDIF Left and Right are two independent channels as each other channel. The only difference is the physical output (digital instead of analog). You can route there whatever you like.


stainless wrote:

and to be clear- the middle row is playback from the software...?

Exactly, yes. Usually audio interfaces would route these signals directly to the physical outputs. The FF sends it to TotalMix (middle row) and gives you the chance to sum and route it wherever you like.

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

viper wrote:
stainless wrote:

now if I have the panner hard left/ hard right... isn't that going to skew my playback through the SPDIF?

SPDIF Left and Right are two independent channels as each other channel. The only difference is the physical output (digital instead of analog). You can route there whatever you like.

I think I'm getting it! I understand the submix scenario now (he says with fingers crossed :roll )

one question, the SPDIF outputs- if my software (DP) tracks are panned ..however they're panned, that is how they'll be sent to/thru the SPDIF outs regardless how the inputs in FF are set?

and to go a step further, being that the mixer faders are at unity/0,  If I'm just using the matrix, is there any reasonneed to hard pan the inputs (in the FF mixer)

thanks much!

8 Reply by stainless (edited by stainless 2011-01-13 07:48:46)

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

so in using the matrix

well first I went into the mixer and labeled the input faders

In the top half of the matrix....I select all the 'intersections: where I want signals routed.... they become highlighted/green boxes with 0.0 in them and it appears when I actually have a signal there they indicate what the signal level is

problem is I seem to only be getting output through 1/2, phL/R and SPDIF.... even though I have outputs 3,4,5,6 "tagged" in the mixer.... I have no signal

Likewise in the lower section of the matrix all green 'boxes' are...w ell green with 0.0 in them. Selecting submix in the mixer and selecting the drums channels (as an example), output 3, SPDIF L?R in playback and 3, SPDIF in output... I'm still only showing signal in  in 1/2 in playback, 1/2, PH L/R, and SPDIF L/R in output... output 3 shows no signal in either plaback or output

what am I doing wrong????

  • viper
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

stainless wrote:

and to go a step further, being that the mixer faders are at unity/0,  If I'm just using the matrix, is there any reasonneed to hard pan the inputs (in the FF mixer)

There is no reason. Again, the mixer and matrix are two different tools to control the same thing.
If you select a specific routing in the matrix, the mixer will show the same routing as well.


stainless wrote:

In the top half of the matrix....I select all the 'intersections: where I want signals routed.... they become highlighted/green boxes with 0.0 in them and it appears when I actually have a signal there they indicate what the signal level is

No, they will only show the fader level you set in the mixer (if set in the mixer).


stainless wrote:

problem is I seem to only be getting output through 1/2, phL/R and SPDIF.... even though I have outputs 3,4,5,6 "tagged" in the mixer.... I have no signal

Likewise in the lower section of the matrix all green 'boxes' are...w ell green with 0.0 in them. Selecting submix in the mixer and selecting the drums channels (as an example), output 3, SPDIF L?R in playback and 3, SPDIF in output... I'm still only showing signal in  in 1/2 in playback, 1/2, PH L/R, and SPDIF L/R in output... output 3 shows no signal in either plaback or output

what am I doing wrong????

Sorry but I don't understand what you want to route where. Maybe write it this way for clarification: "Source" -> "Destination(s)", e.g. In3 -> AN 9.
And I guess you mixed up software outs ("Out 1", "Out 2", ... - the lower half of the matrix) and physical outs ("AN 1", "AN 2", ...).

The best thing you can do ist the following:
- Start with a "clean" routing by holting "ctrl" key while klicking on preset 1.
- Open matrix and mixer next to each other
- Start setting up the matrix by selecting the intersections as needed.
- Watch the mixer while doing so and if possible send signals to see where the meters show a signal. That way you know what is routed where.

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

Viper

thanks for the clarification on the 0.0 'boxes" in the matrix

here's what I'm trying/hoping to do (and I have somewhat of a workaround by assigning outputs /send to aux bus in DP... and while this works fine for playback,I'm thinking this will give me latency while re-tracking/overdubbing ??) though I'm going to try an d run with my buffer at 64 (I should have plenty of CPU resources)

my control room monitors are fed from the SPDIF outputs, which I hope opens all Analog 1- 8 outputs up for assignment

Ideally all tracks would be sent to SPDIF and the actual levels would be controlled in DP

Drums Inputs An1,2; ADAT1-1,2,3,4, ----->>>> analog out3

Bass Input ATAT1-8;  ------->>>> analog out 4

Guitar Input ADAT1-7;  -------->>>> analog out 5

Keyboards Input ADAT1-5,6;  -------->>>>> analog out 6

Vocals Input Analog 6,7,9;  -------->>> analog 1/2 output

the analog outs are patched to a headphone matrix mixer  Oz QM6 with a Presonus HP60-  The QM4 allows for independent levels from 4 sources (I don't use the stereo in) to 6 independent outputs which are sent to the :more me" inserts on the Presonus, which has a stereo A abd B input. The stereo A input gets the vocals from 1/2  and the B when used gets a click.. the A and B inputs have a levele and a combined balance which is why I opt to take vocals from a stereo source, though I could just hard pan the A balance on each channel ( and this an option with click where i can hard pan the B input to control who hears the click. The headphone to the headphones is summed mono, (seems to work better for most folks than stereo mixes)

I hope this is clear and makes sense

  • viper
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

Yes, thats clear. And this is how your matrix should look like.

[img align=L]http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5154/matrixu.jpg[/img]

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

oh thank you!!!

will this work the same for recording or playback/overdubbing?  do you think latency will be an issue?

and lastly- How do i save the matrix set-up? or does it just 'remember' the last used?

thank you again so very much

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

my scenario is flawed I fear, setting up DP to get the mono outs for the headphone mix yields a mono control room mix as well...... unless i set up duplicate tracks , 1 with a mono out and 1 with a stereo out...

is there anyway mono outs independent of the control room mix?  If I used 1/2 as my stereo outs, can I 'tie" them to the SPDIF outputs and still be independent of the mono outs?

this is not going well ... I've been at this 7 days and I don't seem to be any closer

any ideas?

  • viper
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

I don't know DP, so I can't really help you at this point.

But generally you have to distinguish between software monitoring (software) and hardware monitoring (TotalMix).
If the matrix/mixer routes inputs to outputs (like all your headphone signals) - the routing will be inside of the FF and you won't have any latency to worry about.
Routing through the software on the other side introduces much more delay.
If DP uses ASIO direct monitoring it may be able to set hardware monitoring through the fireface - in other words it controls the matrix intersection fields. This has to be activated in the mixer and is also described in the manual.

Regarding saving matrix/mixer setups: It remembers the last used setup - but you should save a setup like I told you in my previous posts.

I guess you should pause a day or so to free your mind and then start from the beginning by carefully reading the manuals and then, step by step setting up your system. Maybe try to draw a chart of all the intended routings through the hard- and software prior to actually setting them up. This should make things a lot easier.

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

At 21:24 last night I believe I finally figured it out... I'll know Monday as I have a session

I will look into the ASIO direct monitoring- a break of as day or 2 would be a welcome relief at this point!

  • viper
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

That sounds sweet.

Good luck for your session and have fun with your FF!!

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

we can only hope!

sincerely, thanks for your help

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

looks like (unless something has changed) ASIO direct monitoring is a Windows only... a pity RME has overlooked all of us Mac users....

now on my 4 or 5th read of the manual about the matrix I glossed over the ASIO direct part before because it contained the dreaded "W" word...

it looks to me that the monitoring of input to out put and playback to out will have some overlap, Does the Iput routing 'trump" the playback routing (meaning if an input is active (recording) it will negate the roting (to the same output) in playback

example- after recording bass, drums, keys, vocals, and guitar,- If everyone wanted to listen to the tune with their headphones on, in playback, it would be as routed through playback (right?), and because i have the software also set-up to route the indivual instruments to mono outputs for the head phone mix, I can still control what each person hears , just like I could if evertone was recording "live"

If you're still following me, the keyboardist and bassist both want to retrack- as both are recording DI, there's no reason they both can't get it done at the same time... so the bass track, and keyboard tracks (stereo) are armed for recording

Does the bassist and keyboardist hear all the previously recorded tracks as they are routed from playback to output? and the new input tracks routed thru input to output?  and will they be in "synch"?????  keep in mind the individual instrumets each has an individual out (mono) the headphone mixes do mnot receive  a stereo pair mix

I hope I'm making sense

I'd really lek to just make music and stop 're-adjusting' settings

I can't find anything in the manual that describes such a situation

  • viper
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

I didn't realized that you are using a mac. Although the matrix/mixer will work the same as on a Win platform there is no ASIO (which is win only) and thus no ASIO direct monitoring.
As I never used a mac for audio stuff so far I can't help you here, sorry.

With the routing I gave you in the matrix picture above the playback signal will only be routed to SPDIF.
On the headphones there are only inputs.
I strongly advise you to make clear for yourself what should be routed where. May be get some reading material about how to use a daw. This might make things easier.

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

Viper

I do appreciate your comments and help-

I've been on ProTools for the past 10 years and I interned in the mid 70's in several studios using 2" tape, so it's not like this all brand new to me.... I'm just having a little trouble understanding the multiple signal paths concurrently going on in TotalMix and then trying to balance that with the routing within the software.  Understand that I had this all routed using ProTools hardware/software, the only thing different is the RME and DP  (PT, Cakewalk, Cubase, Reaper and Logic). My physical patchbay is the same as it has been, and as the RME and the Digi hardware are similar as to the# of Analog ins/outs, and ADAT (1 less unit with the Digi) the physical patching is the same.

I did successfully have  a multi-track session last night with 14 simultaneous tracks and 4 independent headphone mixes- a couple of minor patching issues and some levels that still need to be adjusted, overall a success, so I've managed to answer most of my questions

however, when using the headphone jack on the RME (and using the routing you suggested) I seem to be 'missing' a couple of tracks in the headphones... they're in the monitors /SPDIF... I've tried adding the headphones in the matrix... but this seems to have no bearing on getting the missing tracks to be audible as well as pushing faders up in the mixer

so I've just about got it dialed in, with the exception of this one issue... which for the life of me, I simply don't understand how I could be 'missing' several tracks in the RME headphone mix  that are present in the SPDIF mix -  as the physical patching is the same, it would seem it's quite possibly in how the TotalMix/Matrix is set-up....

so if you have any idea as to why this might be occurring, I thank you in advance and it might possibly be the end of my questions!

  • viper
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

It was not my intention to discredit you or your knowledge about the topic.
It is just my impression that you are trying to achieve your tasks a bit in a rush an therefore missing some fundamental parts.

I'm happy to hear that (almost) everything is working out for you now.

Regarding the headphone out problem:
If you have added matrix connections from input/playback to the RME headphone out channel in the same way you did it for the SPDIF out, everything should work.
In other words, I don't have any other idea apart from finding the missing tracks and checking their routings.

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

no offense taken... and of course I'm in a rush I've got sessions scheduled next week !?! 

I'll try tonight using the submix...that seems to be what would be most useful) and just start from there

23 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: Mixer and Matrix

A routing that is shown as active in the matrix IS active, same in the TM view. You might want to show us a screenshot with a specific routing that is displayed but not perfomed? This way we might be able to help you - or fix a bug if present...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2010-12-26
  • Posts: 58

Re: Mixer and Matrix

I believe I have solved the problem-  and using submix I zeroed in on it... at least I think it's solved....

I think the bug is me.....