• oldon
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Topic: Windows 10 Problem

I am one of the ever-dwindling few who still run Logic Audio 5.5.1 on Windows (or at least I did on Win 8.1 before I upgraded to Win 10).
I know, I know ... please don't ask (but you can probably guess why).

The error I am seeing when I try to play a Logic song (after successfully opening it within Logic) is as follows:

"Timer or midi-output inactive"

OK I know this probably has nothing to do with RME products, but I have used an HDSPE AIO card for a long time now and I am really hoping that someone among all you talented and knowledgeable folk out there might be able to give me a clue or point me in the right direction.
I have reinstalled Logic but the problem persists. I am an experienced IT professional so it is unlikely that I am doing anything REALLY stupid. ALL other apps (and I have lots of them) are running fine under Windows 10 after the upgrade from 8.1. One more thing - just opening the song under Logic, then closing it and quitting Logic itself is really really slow (probably for the same reason that causes the reported error).

  • oldon
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

OK, problem solved. Even though I was already running with the latest 4.10 RME drivers, I decided to re-install them. It worked.

  • oldon
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

I am reactivating this, because this problem has resurfaced, even with the 4.12 drivers. And reinstalling the drivers does not necessarily solve the problem. I also see that another user has a problem after upgrading to Windows 10, so I am not alone.
Please remove Logic Audio from the picture, there are other underlying issues at play here. From time to time, e.g after the recent Windows 10 upgrade to build 10586, something is corrupting the Audio Devices and/or the audio device configuration. It also happened after a BIOS update, and SOMETIMES even after just a cold boot ! Therefore I am a bit suspicious of some Intel software component somewhere, but I cannot point the finger at anything specific yet.
Can anyone experiencing any Window 10 issues please contribute any further evidence ?

4 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

While I do not see that error with other software it might be interesting to check if you get the problem with WDM devices set to 0 as well as with setting them to 1.

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Matthias Carstens
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  • oldon
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

Thanks for the quick reply Matthias. I have now set to 0 as requested, things initially seem OK after a few reboots but let me continue testing for a couple of days so that I can be more confident in my reply. Please note that I do have some other software that requires WDM device count to be  non-zero. However I do understand that setting to 0 with more testing may give you further insight into what may be happening here.

  • oldon
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

I can confirm that setting WDM device count to 0 always fixes the issue (does this point the finger at the Microsoft audio drivers ?)
(Reinstalling the RME drivers occasionally fixes the issue, most of the time it does not).

Setting the WDM device count to 1 does NOT fix the issue (whether 1,2 or 3 it does not matter). if I keep the value at 1,2 or 3 the problem eventually occurs. Setting back to 0 then fixes things.

However, as I said above, this is not acceptable because I use other software (at least two products) that require WDM devices in order to function.

Note also that I DO use the 'AIO MIDI' devices.

Please advise ! I had never seen this issue until Windows 10.

7 Reply by MC

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Re: Windows 10 Problem

Well, Logic 5.5.1 had been released 2007/2008 for Windows XP, where MME devices had been the standard. It most probably uses a function that works differently now, or is no longer compatible to the latest WDM routines.

Did you make sure Logic runs in XP compatibility mode?

Didi you try to disable DirectMusic (About tab of the driver's Settings dialog)?

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Matthias Carstens
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  • oldon
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

Thank you for the suggestions Matthias, but none makes any difference. Things do seem to be workable and acceptable for me for the moment though if I just configure ONE WDM device, viz 'Analog 1+2' stereo

Just one more observation however - I am not at all convinced that it is just Logic Audio misbehaving. I'm sure you remember some time ago that the published 'sample rate' in the DSP settings was misbehaving (a number of people had observed this in various posts). It would sometimes show the correct sample rate, sometimes incorrect, and sometimes would be 'grayed out'.
Well I do recall that this was eventually fixed in a certain release of your drivers (cannot remember which one exactly).

Now for the bad news - those sample rate issues seem to have returned, it seems to show the incorrect sample rate quite often when opening files of various sample rates (that is in general - not just within Logic Audio, which makes me think that I cannot yet blame only Logic Audio for all of these issues I am seeing). In fact I now have to manually change the sample rate quite often in order to get certain applications to work. Is this expected behaviour ?

Sorry to throw in so many things at once, I am not trying to muddy the waters, but taken together this is all indicating to me that something is not quite right under Windows 10.

9 Reply by MC

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Re: Windows 10 Problem

You can provide a screenshot of the current Settings dialog?

Also a clear example of when an app won't work until you change the sample rate, and this only under Windows 10, would be helpful.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
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10 Reply by oldon (edited by oldon 2015-11-22 05:02:42)

  • oldon
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

1. Sorry, I am trying to post screenshots of my DSP settings but I can't manage it ... how can I attach a jpeg or paste a 'print screen' ? Can someone help me out here?

2. I'll give you 2 examples of failing apps (there are others also). And this is all with single-streaming, I am not trying to run any two apps simultaneously.

The best example is 'Cool Edit Pro'. When sample rate is showing as 96000 Hz under DSP settings (e.g. after a Logic Audio session with 96K sample rate), Cool Edit does not even let me play a 44k wav file - the 'play' button is grayed out. As soon as I set the sample rate manually to 44100 under DSP settings, everything is fine.

Another example is the 'AVerMediaCenter' TV application which gives me free-to-air  TV output via a PCIe TV card. I get NO sound when the sample rate is showing as 96000 Hz but when I manually change to 44100 then I get sound.

I NEVER had this issue with any of these apps prior to Windows 10.

Further Info : Please note I am running the latest Windows 10 cumulative update, OS Build 10586.11
And surprise, the Microsoft audio drivers have been updated (Date 29/10/15, Driver version 10.0.10586.0).

OK, OK I will shut up soon and give someone else a chance ... but I have discovered one more interesting thing.
I look at Control panel / Sound / Manage Audio Devices and see the following.
When DSP settings are showing 96000 Hz THE PLAYBACK DEVICE RME Analog (1+2) DISAPPEARS (so no surprise that Cool Edit etc cannot play a 44100 file ... - there are no devices available !)
As soon as I change the 44100 to 96000 manually within DSP settings, this playback device re-appears and all is well.
I'll stop there.

  • oldon
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

Well I did stop my previous entry .. but now after further testing, I have to make one more entry in this thread to clear up issues raised above (please humour me).
The following is the only scenario that 'works' for me ... apart from one minor issue.

Under DSP settings, select two WDM devices 1. 'Analog 1+2' and 2. 'Phones'
Under SPEAKERS tab, select only 'Phones'

Now under Windows Control Panel Sound/Manage Audio Devices, there should be TWO playback devices, 'Speakers' and 'Analog 1+2'.
Make sure the DEFAULT DEVICE is 'Analog 1+2' and the Default COMMS DEVICE is 'Speakers'.
The sole 'Recording Device' should be 'Analog 1+2'
The sample rates and bit depths are determined by the DSP settings.
Logic Audio now works perfectly using a 96K sampling rate, and the DSP Sample Rate of 96K is grayed out (as it should be I think).

Close down Logic Audio, the displayed sample rate is still showing 96K (but now ungrayed of course).
Now open an application and play a 44k file/CD/TV broadcast or whatever. This works (in my previous post, the failure scenario was using one WDM device only, not two)
My only further observation, of minor importance, is that the displayed DSP sample rate is still 96k at this stage.
I am fairly sure that changes have been made to Windows 10 audio in the recent major upgrade (a quick search of the web seems to confirm this, as other audio-related issues have been reported).

12 Reply by MC

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Re: Windows 10 Problem

> My only further observation, of minor importance, is that the displayed DSP sample rate is still 96k at this stage.

If you mean the 'not greyed out' display in the Settings dialog then Windows Audio is still working in 96 kHz and upsamples the data from the 44.1 kHz application. Which is the expected behavior. This seems to have not worked before with just one device.

I will try to reproduce this setup, thanks.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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13 Reply by MC

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Re: Windows 10 Problem

And I can't. In fact Windows 10 WDM and ASIO works perfectly even with one device and no Speaker. Using ASIO will switch the sample rate, and the standard apps (without ASIO) will use Windows sample rate conversion without knowing it.

There is a possible pitfall, though: In Sound, if you assign any output to be default, you have to do this for all sample rates, one by one, as Windows remembers this setting separately per sample rate!

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • oldon
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

Sorry, but I have to keep this issue going - there is still a problem, arisen after the latest updates to Windows 10 (OS Build is now 10586.29).
No matter what I try by reinstalling RME driver, changing number of WDM devices, etc I am seeing the following error when starting Logic Audio :

ASIO: Selected ASIO Driver "ASIO Hammerfall DSP" not found (-10202)

If anyone doubts that there have been substantial audio-related changes under Windows 10, just do a search on 'windows 10 audio' or 'windows 10 asio' and you will see what I mean. And this OS installation of Windows 10 is a fresh one, not an upgrade in case you are wondering.
Question for MC please - is it possible to set NO device defaults under 'manage audio devices' ? There seems that there must be a default device (by definition) under each of the 'playback' and 'recording' tabs.

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Re: Windows 10 Problem

I would really suggest to try another ASIO application before drawing conclusions. Reaper is a good way to test ASIO here (www.reaper.fm). Expecting Logic for Windows to run perfectly under W10 may be a tad far-fetched, IMHO.

[EDIT] Haven't yet tried the HDSP driver, but ASIO works just fine with the Madiface XT (USB) and Reaper.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

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Daniel Fuchs
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  • oldon
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Re: Windows 10 Problem

Thanks Daniel for that suggestion.
Yes Reaper seems to work fine with ASIO driver. I guess I have some thinking to do now, either dual-boot under Win 8.1 or abandon my much-loved Logic Audio ...
One thing that will make my decision more difficult though - I just tested Logic again under 'Windows XP Compatibility' option, and to my great surprise it worked ! It never did previously, when I tried that as suggested by MC.
I guess one thing has been established - Logic under Win 10 is going to be erratic ...

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Re: Windows 10 Problem

I don't know if this will be of interest to anyone or not, but after much testing I have discovered something else.
No matter what problematic state I get into (either no ASIO driver, or just very slow), I can always get Logic Audio working by first setting the count of WDM devices to 0. After that, I can configure DSP settings to add any WDM devices as necessary in order to get  other applications working - and I do not have to close Logic Audio in order to do this.

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Re: Windows 10 Problem

I realise that I must be the last remaining person on the planet using Logic Audio 5.5.1 under Windows 10, but I just applied the 'Windows 10 Anniversary' upgrade (a very large patch, took over two hours to download and apply) and something very interesting has happened.
I had given up hope of the normal execution of Logic working properly (with a non-zero number of WDM devices specified), so I was getting used to the workaround that I described previously in this thread, but after this upgrade THINGS ARE WORKING NORMALLY AGAIN - I can leave the number of WDM devices to be 1 or more, and Logic behaves normally! I guess M$soft realised that there was an issue with the audio engine, and fixed it - or did this fix occur accidentally?  ... I guess we'll never know. But for now I am happy again.