• From: NYC
  • Registered: 2012-02-17
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Topic: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Hello,
On remote with Pyramix Native 9.1.5 and expecting my PCIe MadiFace to work as usual connecting to SSL XLogic Alpha Madi. For some reason my settings on the RME changed and I could not get the RME mixer to work properly and drive the inputs correctly on the Pyramix.
ISSUES:
- Set up project at 96khz and notice the channels are not all coming in, and there is a doubling occurring on the RME mixer page - Channels 1-4 are doubling on 17-20. Channels 5-7 are not coming in for some reason even though the meters on the SSL input are showing they are working. Also I suspect the channels coming in are not the same as what is being sent from SSL.

- Reduce project to 48khz and now all channels show, but double staring at channel 33 on the RME mixer.

- Load the latest RME MadiFace driver and same result - 96khz doesn't allow for proper channel recognition, but 48 does, even though they are doubled staring at channel 33 on the RME mixer.

Has anyone else had this problem? Also what is the cause? I was always able to record 24 channels of 96khz using the SSL-->RME MadiFace PCIe-->Pyramix Native in my Dell Laptop but it seems there was a Windows 7 Pro update that caused this issue? possible? Is it an RME Hardware driver update issue? Solutions?

I need to record at higher resolution 2FS and am heading back to the session this evening. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

draudio2u's Website

2 Reply by MC

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

You are looking in the wrong place - Windows updates don't change sample rate settings. Most probably one of the devices is not set to 96 kHz. Also you have to check TotalMix routings (a Total Reset might help) and settings and Input Status in the card's Settings dialog. Are you sure to use the MADIface ASIO driver?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • From: NYC
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

I haven't changed the SSL sample rate settings and when I open my Pyramix project, I set to 96. This sets the DSP of MadiFace to 96. I then confirm that I have 96 Option, 96 Sample Rate, and 64/32 channel with MADI In as clock.
I am set up in my hotel now and will double check all settings.

draudio2u's Website

  • From: NYC
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

You can see here on the image how I have the DSP set up and the doubling of floor noise from my converter and Mic Pre when set to 2FS.  It is as if RME has reverted to Legacy 2FS channel routing. Is this possible?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i0osvyd9n1tpv … 1.jpg?dl=0

draudio2u's Website

  • From: NYC
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

What is odd is that you can see on the DSP Settings the "Input Status" reads 64 channels at 48K Frame and 48K, but the SSL is set at 96K. Shouldn't this all read 96K?

draudio2u's Website

  • From: NYC
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Now the strange thing - I seem to have gotten the system working in 88K. Note the screen shot here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mrn997qyvil4b … 2.jpg?dl=0

Clock Mode is Locked @ 88200 via MADI In

The Options is reading 96K and I "think" this is normal for 2FS no matter if it is 88 or 96. Yes?

Input Status is now correct with 32 Channels 96K Frame and 88.2kHz Sync.

When I go to the mixer window, I no longer see a doubling of channels and I see proper channel input alignment (1 is 1, 2 is 2 and so on...) 

If I switch the SSL to internal 96K, the  RME reverts to being incorrect and causing problems. 

I need to run some signal and actually listen to this all to make sure I have no clock issues and verify Pyramix will see all this.

draudio2u's Website

7 Reply by MC

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

draudio2u wrote:

What is odd is that you can see on the DSP Settings the "Input Status" reads 64 channels at 48K Frame and 48K, but the SSL is set at 96K. Shouldn't this all read 96K?

The manual clearly explains the difference between 48k Frame and 96k Frame. You send MADI as native 96k Frame signal to the SSL - but get back the standard 48k Frame signal which uses S/MUX. I don't know if the SSL supports 96k Frame at all. Switch the MADI card to 48 k Frame to check for different behaviour.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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8 Reply by MC

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Your last post suggests a bug in the SSL where 96 kHz does not work correctly. To verify this set the HDSPe MADI to internal clock and connect input and output directly, then check the Input Status at 96 kHz.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • hedge
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

I too am experiencing all these confusions between the SSL MADI AX and the RME HDSPe MADI FX. Regardless of which device is running the clock, here is what it's happening:

MADI AX set to 88.2k
HDSPe FX Settings dialog box shows "MADI 1 Lock 88.2k Hz   96k Frame   32 channels"

MADI AX set to 96k
HDSPe FX Settings dialog box shows "MADI 1 Lock 48k Hz   32k Frame   64 channels"

Has anyone tried to verify what's going on with support from SSL?

10 Reply by MC

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

The input status just verifies that the MADI AX does not use 96k Frame mode as soon as you set MADI AX to 96 kHz operation. While this looks like a bug in the MADI AX it  should be no big problem - you can use the HDSPe card in 48k Frame mode as well, so it will work.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • From: NYC
  • Registered: 2012-02-17
  • Posts: 31

Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Hello,
I am back on this problem and have SSSL technical support online with me now. 
48k Frame mode will not work with the SSL in 2fs, though you see signal on TotalMix, you don't hear anything until you switch to 96k Frame.
I ran two tests salving the RME to SSL and then SSL to Internal RME.  In both instances the signal and clock Sync worked, including at 88.2 high speed.  As soon as I switch to 96, the clock would revert to 48 and the signal would go into Legacy mode.  Are there any other settings in the Hammerfall DSP window I should consider?
I have upgraded the driver to 4.14
Thank you.

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

> Your last post suggests a bug in the SSL where 96 kHz does not work correctly. To verify this set the HDSPe MADI to internal clock and connect input and output directly, then check the Input Status at 96 kHz.

Did you ever do that?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • From: NYC
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

MC wrote:

> Your last post suggests a bug in the SSL where 96 kHz does not work correctly. To verify this set the HDSPe MADI to internal clock and connect input and output directly, then check the Input Status at 96 kHz.

Did you ever do that?

"Connect Input and output directly" - I don't understand that - you mean loop the single madi cable into the MADIface?  How does this work then with the SSL?

draudio2u's Website

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

We have some success with Legacy mode. I can program the SSL into Legacy Mode / 56 channel and keep the frame rate on the RME to 56 channel.  The units all lock up with either being clock.  The Frame rate setting on the RME has to be 48K. In 96 the SSL has random outputs splitting off from a stereo signal coming in analog.


My only issue now is that even though RME is seeing all 24 channels of Floor Noise on the meters, I only get 12 channels of possible channel selection in Pyramix.  Not sure what is going on there between the RME and Pyramix.  When I was in 88 in Full Speed (not legacy mode) I had all 24channels available.


Still - it is VERY odd that the SSL would revert to Legacy mode at 96 when 88.2 always worked with my system for years in Full Speed/64 channel/96 Frame rate and I saw 24 channels of Madi available to me in Pyramix.


If you have any ideas as too why I had to switch to Legacy just to get access to 96kHz performance, I would appreciate it.  Also, I must be missing something in the Matrix routing for not having access to channels 13-24 in Pyramix.  Any advise on that issue would also be helpful.

Thank you.

draudio2u's Website

  • Registered: 2010-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

I am seeing a very similar issue in my system. I have an SSL Alpha Link MADI SX feeding into an RME HDSPe MADI fx card. The entire system is clocked externally to an Antelope Audio Pure 2. According to the SSL manual, it should work with single speed clock all the way up to 96kHz, no SMUX needed. When the system is clocked to 88.2kHz, the HDSPe settings dialog shows a 96K Frame and everything works perfectly. When I switch everything to 96kHz, the RME settings dialog falls back to 48kHz and I get a hissing noise on inputs 16 through 32.

After a LOT of experimentation, I believe the problem is with the MADI frame size coming out of the SSL - it should be a 96kHz frame at 96kHz, but it resets to a 48kHz frame.

I just discovered this issue because I never worked at 96kHz until recently when a client requested it. I almost always work at either 44.1 or 88.2.

I sent a support request to SSL, and I will report back with their response.

  • Registered: 2010-06-11
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

A quick update. I'm working with SSL via email to sort out the problem with the MADI output from the Alpha Link SX. In the meantime, I am trying an Antelope Audio Orion 32. Upon connecting the O32 via MADI optical and clocking the entire system from the O32 WC outputs, the HDSPe MADI fx immediately sync'd the MADI stream with 96kHz MADI frame size.

That tells me the original problem is with the Alpha Link MADI frame at 96kHz.

I hope they can fix it with a firmware update. The Alpha Link is a great piece.

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

@zendrum, did SSL provide a fix for 96k full speed?

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Not yet. I'm still emailing back and forth with them. I'm having trouble getting through to them that at 96kHz the Alpha Link squirts out a 48 kHz MADI frame.

I picked up an Antelope Audio Orion 32 in the meantime, and it works perfectly. The problem must be with the Alpha Link.

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

It is, but they haven't updated these units since the past 6 years or so.
Also it will need a soundscape card I believe to upload or configure the u it beyond the front panel

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Bump, just wondering if the 96k frame issue  on the Alphalinkever got sorted?

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21 Reply by The Beatsmith (edited by The Beatsmith 2023-03-19 02:42:48)

  • Registered: 2010-03-30
  • Posts: 35

Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Hi, bumping an old thread. MADIFace Pro USB here with SSL Alphalink SX.

I can get 56 (28) channels @ 96khz sample rate with 96K frame. Input status will correctly show:

MADI Optical | Sync | 96KHz | 96K Frame | 28 Channels

However I can't get 32 channels with either 48K or 96K frame. When I try setting to 64 channels and to use SMUX/48K Frame, it will show:

MADI Optical | Sync | 48KHz | 48K Frame | 64 Channels

Is this correct because of the use of 48K/SMUX or should it say: MADI Optical | Sync | 96KHz | 48K Frame | 32 Channels?

If it's incorrect, is there no way to have 64 channels @ 96KHz with the SSL hardware, with RME hardware?

How to set it to 64 channel 96k frame is highlighted specifically in the user guides so I would imagine it should be possible!

I get the same result with 96K frame.

Help!

Thanks,

Ed

Mac Studio Ultra, MADIFace Pro, SSL Alphalink SX/Lavry AD10/DA10, macOS 14.3.1, Logic 11, SSL Matrix

22 Reply by The Beatsmith (edited by The Beatsmith 2023-03-19 02:47:58)

  • Registered: 2010-03-30
  • Posts: 35

Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Taken from another post on this forum:

Hello David,
There is a known issue with the MADI on Alpha-Link AX firmware version v2.4 when working in following conditions
Note : to be read as "these 3 conditions must be met in order to generate the MADI Transmitter problem":
[1] Sample Rate = 96Khz
[2] SMUX = OFF
[3] 64 channel Mode
In the above mentioned conditions, the RME MADI receiver might not get into lock
It's possible that you have this firmware.
Possible Workarounds :
1) As you have found out already, configure both the AlphaLink AX and RME to operate with 28 channels instead of 32 (96kHz).
Or:
2) configure both the AlphaLink AX and RME to operate with SMUX = ON.
Or:
3) If you can have access to a Mixpander: update the AlphaLink AX firmware to the latest version which is included in the Soundscape driver.
Note : According the official MADI standard,
SMUX=ON corresponds to "Madi Legacy mode".
SMUX=OFF corresponds to "Madi Frame Pattern mode".

Mine's an SX not an AX, but I assume it's the same issue.

So, to be clear, my question is: if both RME and SSL are set to legacy SMUX mode and they're both set to 96khz (DAW is 96khz, RME settings is 96khz and MADIFace Pro is the master clock so the Alphalink follows and 96khz LED is lit up), is it okay for RME Settings to show:

MADI Optical | Sync | 48KHz | 48K Frame | 64 Channels

Or should it show:

MADI Optical | Sync | 96KHz | 48K Frame | 32 Channels

(I'm confused why it says 64 channels on the 'Input Status'... surely there would be 32 inputs... it says 28 inputs when set to 56 channel)

Mac Studio Ultra, MADIFace Pro, SSL Alphalink SX/Lavry AD10/DA10, macOS 14.3.1, Logic 11, SSL Matrix

23 Reply by MC

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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

In SMUX mode the real sample rate is unkown, so the unit reports the physical (or carrier) data - which is single speed at 64 channels.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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24 Reply by The Beatsmith (edited by The Beatsmith 2023-03-19 13:37:18)

  • Registered: 2010-03-30
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

So it sounds like in SMUX mode, the information is correct (or as expected). The SSL converter and RME settings both set to 96khz so I'm guessing it works, though I haven't done a recording session at these settings, only mixing.

Mac Studio Ultra, MADIFace Pro, SSL Alphalink SX/Lavry AD10/DA10, macOS 14.3.1, Logic 11, SSL Matrix
  • Registered: 2010-03-30
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Unfortunately though it seem that when using SMUX I cannot use the internal clock of the MADIFace as master, as it doubles the sample rate.

So it will set the SSL to 88.2 when at 44.1, and 96khz when at 48khz...

So it seems that if I want to use all 32 channels, I have to use SMUX and the internal clock of the SSL and adjust it manually each time a project changes...

Or I set it to 96K frame rate and only get 28 channels...

Mac Studio Ultra, MADIFace Pro, SSL Alphalink SX/Lavry AD10/DA10, macOS 14.3.1, Logic 11, SSL Matrix
  • Raphie
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

-4 varispeed channels is not a bad thing.

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  • Registered: 2010-03-30
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

Sure, but it's not as good as 8!

Mac Studio Ultra, MADIFace Pro, SSL Alphalink SX/Lavry AD10/DA10, macOS 14.3.1, Logic 11, SSL Matrix
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Re: MadiFace-->SSL XLogic Alpha - 2FS Failure

96k @ 64ch will never work, unfortunately. Soundscape is dead, there is no other way to update the unit other than the soundscape (SCSI LVE) port.

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