Topic: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

I'm a bit afraid to ask one further question on the ADI-2 Pro, after the dumb one I asked in a previous post. But as I've already played the silliest character in the play, I might as well risk whatever face I've left (if any at all), and ask again for your advice, please.

In Digital Through Mode, since a single digital input signal is passed through the unit to be monitored on the analog outputs at the same time, I suppose the Volume control can be used to set the analog output level. But, then, how about the level of the digital outputs? Can any or all of them be controlled by the Volume knob while in Digital Through Mode?

I'd say the main purpose of a format converter is to be totally bit-perfect, at least until SRC is needed, and since a level control on the (digital) signal path is the opposite of bit-perfect by its very definition, I'm forced to ask the question (while expecting a "no" for an answer).

Maybe the background might show the purpose of my asking: one of the features I love most in my UCX is how the level of digital output can be set with no perceivable loss of quality even at serious attenuation values. But, as in my ignorance I can't say whether this is a feature that comes with the TotalMix (FX) package, or it is simply embedded with the DSP coding, I'm wondering if the ADI-2 Pro will allow me to feed the AES/EBU output while enjoying the same, smooth volume control that's needed in my application.

My typical application has no use for analog outputs, just the AES/EBU. Which my UCX/ADI-4DD kit covers perfectly fine, but I honestly can't resist the call of a real AES/EBU output in a half-width-only device, plus an even more robust headphone amp, the Bauer Binaural filter, the M/S processing, the generously-sized volume knob right there... I'm willing to have it, if only I can be sure I'll be able to use it in my environment.

Alternatively, then, if the volume control does not set the level of digital outputs when in Digital Through Mode, is it active on digital outputs, too, when the ADI-2 Pro is operating in USB Interface mode? Would it have the same smooth, perfectly done dithering function, that it has on my UCX? That would still make my day, as my application could be adapted to this scenario.

Thanks in advance for your patience and advice!

Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

There are no silly questions.

From the level of details you provide its evident, that you have experience, but simply look for confirmation.

Its all fine, good questions and am also curious in regards to the answer, its interesting.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

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Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

> But, then, how about the level of the digital outputs? Can any or all of them be controlled by the Volume knob while in Digital Through Mode?

No. Fully bit transparent on purpose.

In fact there is no mode that allows to control the digital output volume on this device directly. The wonderful digital attenuation that you mentioned exists, but for the analog outputs. Using the unit as A/D or D/D converter with digital volume control is not what is was intended for, sorry.

The workaround, an analog loopback cabling in AD/DA converter mode, will work, and in mind-blowing quality (due to the excellent AD/DA conversion), but might not be your cup of tea...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

Thank you for your reply, Matthias, honest and true as your own signature!

I saw it coming, but had to ask to be 100% sure, and have my worst fears confirmed.

Sure, I've still got plenty options, in the RME offer, but being how AES/EBU isn't the average bread-and-butter medium of the Sacred Triad (of Skateboard, Laptop, Backpack), I'm aware that I'll have to surrender to the 19" rack format I've been trying to run away from, for as long as AES/EBU is my karma.

Half-rack-width's is still my dream, and while I can't say which one I love most between my UCX and Babyface Pro, which serve me in two completely unrelated realms, having to carry an ADI-4DD around all the time spoils much of the fun (of carrying a backpack instead of a rack).

When RME will launch a 2kg, 2"Ø Volume Pot, All-Bronze, All-Digital, Drive-Through, with USB, AES/EBU, SPDIF, Dante, Ravenna, MADI and AVB ins and outs, with your marvellous digital attenuation engine built right in (and Allrad-Antrieb, of course), just count me in among your beta testers, please. And buyers, too!

In all honesty, the way you designed your digital attenuation has no equal on the market, hands down: if I can't hear steps on a +kWs PA connected straight to my UCX via ADI-4DD, and if I can't hear reverb and ambience shrink even at -40 (with 16-bit source program, even) when connected to the same PAs, I know why I discarded anything else than RME, I know it any time I launch TotalMixFX on my (most crammed) laptop screen.

Keep up your relentless Research (& Development) of Unprecedented Excellence, please, as we all depend on it!
(Well, saying "we depend on you" sounded a bit too much, all things considered. But you got the idea :-)

Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

I've found the solution I was looking for, which justifies the purchase of the ADI-2 Pro, while keeping the travel bulk as small as possible, and avoiding one more digital-to-analog (and analog-to-digital) conversion in the process.

I had recently bought for personal use a BabyFace Pro, of which I've grown quite fond, which is incredibly comfortable to use thanks to the 5/8" screw socket on its back panel, fixed on top of a foldable tripod for generic camera use.

I've tought of using it as the digital source to ADI-2 Pro via TosLink connection, as the rotary control on the Babyface Pro provides for an easy, hands-on, fade-in and fade-out function during my application.

As long as level output from Babyface Pro is 0, the bit-perfect condition in my signal chain shall be flawlessly met, and I expect that the care in whatever dithering law is applied to the level control in the Babyface Pro DPS is as accurate as the one I've experienced with my trusted UCX.

Shall work, I've figured out, and to this effect I've already ordered the ADI-2 Pro, in order to be sure it can be placed... under the Christmas tree in a few weeks time!

Thanks again for your (flawless, and timely) support!

Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

Hi,
so if it is not possible to regulate the volume with the adi pro on the digital output, you Need the UFX +, dont you? Are the A/D and D/A-Divices in the UFX + equal to the ones in the adi 2 pro? Is the digital volume control in the UFX+ better than in the FF 400 wich I own?
I'd like  to connect the Output of the rme divice directly to the DSP of an active Speaker. Is the UFX the best solution or are there alternatives to connect my music files on the Computer to my active Speakers? I feel that I do not need all the some hundred ins and outs of the UFX - but I want max audio performance and I like to connect my Vinyl-Equipment to the setup - so I do need a very good A/D-converter - wich the FF 400 doesn't have - with all respects.

So the questions are: does the UFX+ perform better in digital volume control than the FF400? Does the UFX+ perform equal in A/D converting to the adi2pro? Is there a more simple but equal quality giving solution with rme - keeping in mind that I only need 2-channel playback and maybe vinyl recording?
bw
sascha

Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

Hi Sascha, I'm still waiting to receive the ADI-2 Pro I've ordered a few days ago, I haven't tried it it.
But I have received my new UFX in the meantime, and it adds to my UCX... don't know about the UFX+, no experience on it, and it's not on my path, no need for such a load of functions and channels in my application.

But I've been using the UCX for the past two year (or three, maybe), driving sound systems you can't imagine how big and how expensive, and the volume control of the UCX is like no other audio interface i've had a chance to try. I wouldn't have had any reason to add other interfaces, if not for having new colleagues who need their own interface, and for the need to drive long AES/EBU lines (which isn't the UCX forte, obviously).

To me, the solution until now has been to mate the UCX to an ADI-4 DD, which never failed me and had the added value of a DB25 connector carrying four discrete AES/EBU outputs out of a very small device.

Is the DSP of your active loudspeaker provided with only a digital input? If this is the case, then the ADI-2 Pro won't do it, unless you opt for the loopback suggested by MC, which is indeed a very practical and easy work-around to an architecture that's been designed with a different (and very flexible) purpose in mind. It won't do in my case (we're counting bits in my application), but will do in my home setting (which is why I ended up buying it anyway).

Can't say what's best or what's worse, sorry, can't help you on this. As far as I'm concerned, though, I've had ample proof that the inherent quality of modern converters is very seldom behind an unsatisfactory sonic appraisal, as differences between "this" converter and "that" converter are very hard to pinpoint if no words are truncated, or levels aren't dithered. Which is why (and it's commendable, indeed) the ADI-2 Pro has been designed WITHOUT an output level control in the digital domain when performing a format conversion.

Again, not sure if that's your case, but converters driving outputs at -20dB or worse, lower levels, can hardly sound good, unless a considerable amount of dithering is performed in the background (which, before today's very efficient DSP processing, was a clear enemy of low latency). As far as my experience with the interface you're mentioning (and I played just yesterday a system for a demonstration to a client who came equipped with that exact interface of his very own kit), I can't honestly find anything bad, or wrong with its conversion (if all the word length is used, without being chopped by a debatable gain-setting sequence in the audio chain).

If I was concerned with the smoothest possible volume control, I believe the loopback function applied as MC suggests is a great solution in terms of quality, and most likely quite better than any digital-domain-only volume-changing instance, that's clear as daylight, especially at the low-lower-lowest levels that are typical of home applications (in which you listen to music also at night, early morning, or when your partner's still asleep, often at -30, -40 or worse attenuation).

I would have not discarded the ADI-2 Pro if only I wouldn't have had to run it into a signal chain that's designed to make do with one less conversion, or two, from mixer to power amps of concert sound systems; in simple audio terms, though, no doubt it sounds as good, or even better, than any digital "attenuation" performed without some serious dithering, again an area in which RME devices made all the difference in the world compared to other-brand AES/EBU-equipped audio interfaces (of which did not exist many different devices until very recent times).

I'll let you know how it turns out, when I can finally get the ADI-2 Pro in my kit. It's meant to replace my previous 2-piece converter + heaphone amplifier set, with a great saving in terms of footprint, bulk and weight (CEC DA-53 and SPL Phonitor first version). As I  often play along much of what I listen to, I expect my Babyface Pro will come in handy for my guitar and computer DAW low-latency job fed into the ADI-2 Pro.

If you don't need to run 50+ meters of AES/EBU lines, though, I can't speak good enough of UCX in terms of audio quality, if you really wanna replace your FF400. I was stubbornly set to FW in my mind, and FW turned out to be the least used option onboard my UCX, never ever found USB unable to keep with my 2 or 4 channels of audio feeds. With the length of a home or studio environment, the unbalanced, 75-Ohm SPDIF output pigtailed unto a short cinch-to-XLR adapter never itched even once in its lifetime, in my experience, so I believe 20m at 96k with the right cable is no sweat at all to UCX, if you like it compact and half-space.

Hope this helps you look around in all possible directions, it's just my humble opinion, but can't see much call for a fortress like UFX+ if your channel count stops at... two, and even then, UCX has as a lot onboard you won't ever need. MC's hint makes the most sense of all options (if you just don't have my limitations), in my own view.

Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

MC wrote:

> But, then, how about the level of the digital outputs? Can any or all of them be controlled by the Volume knob while in Digital Through Mode?

No. Fully bit transparent on purpose.

In fact there is no mode that allows to control the digital output volume on this device directly. The wonderful digital attenuation that you mentioned exists, but for the analog outputs. Using the unit as A/D or D/D converter with digital volume control is not what is was intended for, sorry.

The workaround, an analog loopback cabling in AD/DA converter mode, will work, and in mind-blowing quality (due to the excellent AD/DA conversion), but might not be your cup of tea...

Hi again, the ADI-2 Pro is finally here on my desk, just delivered, hooked up for a quick run from a few minutes.
[BTW, compliments for the look and feel of the unit, even before having heard it, it's worth its price already at first contact!]

I'm fiddling with the front-panel controls, trying to make your hint work in reality.
As I have no digital source available where I find myself at present, I can't connect it as AD/DA converter, so I've hooked it to my computer via USB.

Just for confirmation, am I correct in assuming that the analog loopback cabling trick you're suggesting won't work while in USB Mode, but only in AD/DA Mode?

Because the USB input isn't available as an option while in AD/DA Mode, and while in USB Mode there's no way to select any source other than USB, which is obvious (in retrospect), though I had not figured it out until now.

Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

Hi there!
Thanks for your impressive long and informative answer, hint, tipps, tricks etc.
The ad2 pro might be a very good a-d/d-a-converter with two super impressive headphone-amps. But I need for managing my system with two analog turntables and one music-spending computer via fire wire or usb a machnie like the ufx or even the ufx+ - depends on the quality of the converters - in the ufx might be the same a-d/d-a conversion as in the ad2 pro. The loop-back thing will better and easier perform if you have more than one analog input in my terms and can be routed via total mix in a much easier way.
Thank's a lot once more.

one question is open: are the d-a/ad-converters in the ufx+ the same as in the ad2 pro?

yours
sascha

Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

s.wenzel wrote:

Hi there!
Thanks for your impressive long and informative answer, hint, tipps, tricks etc.
The ad2 pro might be a very good a-d/d-a-converter with two super impressive headphone-amps. But I need for managing my system with two analog turntables and one music-spending computer via fire wire or usb a machnie like the ufx or even the ufx+ - depends on the quality of the converters - in the ufx might be the same a-d/d-a conversion as in the ad2 pro. The loop-back thing will better and easier perform if you have more than one analog input in my terms and can be routed via total mix in a much easier way.
Thank's a lot once more.

one question is open: are the d-a/ad-converters in the ufx+ the same as in the ad2 pro?

yours
sascha

Hello S.Wenzel,

The AD/DA in the ADI-2 Pro is not the same as the UFX+.

For example, the ADI-2 Pro is using an AD converters from the Premium ADCs"VERITA" group (topmost group) seen on the following web page: http://www.akm.com/akm/en/product/detail/0055/

...whereas the UFX+ is using an AD converter from the Premium ADCs group (bottom group).

The same sort of situation applies to the DA side.

Note: Look for the different groups towards the bottom of the page.

Nelson

11

Re: ADI-2 Pro Volume control

@ rbbrnck:; you are correct.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME