1 (edited by panatrope 2017-01-31 02:21:19)

Topic: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

I recently used my UFX in CC mode with iPad to both record (DURec) and mix a live jazz show.  Some of my troubles arose from the main performers rocking up about 3 minutes before show time (reasonable excuse- 5-month-old baby) so the sound check was the first number.  No stranger to these situations, but usually using a hardware mixer.

I'm using an iPad  Air 2.  I do switch between the normal and the enlarged screen when necessary to give me better control of faders etc.  However I do notice that some times I have difficulty "grabbing" the fader or other control.  Like wise the rotary controls as in pan, channel gain (Mics 9 - 12) and the EQ controls.  Even tapping the "spanner" or EQ buttons would not produce an immediate response.

During the first number I had to tweak the vocalists channel gain - i "grabbed" the pot, but it is quite sensitive, and under pressure the finger slipped putting the channel at full gain.  The mute button is as hard to grab as the gain pot, anyway the channel fader on that submix was zeroed and that fixed it temporarily but trying to restore the channel gain was a problem.  We eventually recovered after about 10 seconds, and I eventually regained the confidence of the band.  But there were still times throughout the evening when I had "finger troubles" and I have had to rethink the appropriateness of using an iPad for this sort of work.   (No, I am NOT going to cart along my MCUPro, and I'm not sure if it can control channel gains from it anyway.)

Two things are burnt into my brain now.   One is that - in situations like that - the 'Undo' button is the new 'Panic Button'.  Being of advanced years, my subconscious didn't work fast enough, but I will be giving it some practice befoer the next gig.  The other is that, at the back of the cupboard' I have the original ARC, and that channel gains 9 -12 can be assigned to the encoder, so I don't have to rely on the touch screen for that "touchy" (pardon the pun) task.

But there are lots of other "rotary" controls in things like EQ etc that may be the subject of finger troubles. Now my fingers are not exactly fat and stubby, and having a long time ago a close encounter with various musical instruments I still have a reasonable degree of dexterity.  But I now think that in live situations, I am wary of relying on this type of control, at least in its present state.  TMFX was developed on the predicate of use of a mouse on computer screen to control it.  Porting it to touch control on a iPad seems to me to need a bit more of a rethink in control strategy, at least in live situations.

Possibilities?  I know the big iPad Pro supports the Apple Pencil, which may be able to act more like a mouse, with a finer contact point, more reliable "grabbing" and better control over movement.  The big iPad pro is inconvenient for me (not to mention expensive), but it is rumoured that the new iPad Pro 2 (10inch format) will support the Apple Pencil and maybe this will work better in these situations.  But it's Apple - who knows?

Another possibility is to make the controls even larger.  If one opens up the "spanner" or EQ panels, it would be useful it there was an option when opening these types of control panel,instead of sliding across, it would "pop-up" to the full height of the display; the larger area and increased size of the controls would make individual controls easier to operate.  The panel would of course then revert to the normal size when closed.

Controlling a live show from an iPad like this puts me in mind of Samuel Johnson's remarks when he observed dogs trained to walk upright on their hind legs: "One marvels not so much that it were done well, more that it was done at all".  Yes we can mix a show on TotalMix FX on an iPad;  but are there any further optimisations possible to do it well?

Maybe there are others who have attempted this and encountered limitations in this regard; others may have been wildly successful.  Maybe I just need a little more practice in this regard.  In all cases, swapping ideas is always useful.  Let's see what we can find?

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

2 (edited by ramses 2017-01-31 08:48:19)

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

Could perhaps a small laptop or sub book or hybrid laptop / tab be an alternative ?

Preferrable with a good mouse pad and laser mouse, which also can be configured in terms of sensitivity.

I have for example a Logitech G400 where I can change the mouse sensitivity for movements (fast / slow moves)
and decided for certain applications to be able to switch between up to 3 sensitivities by pushing knobs on the mouse
with the thumb on the left side, which is easily reachable on my mouse.

Also the mouse wheel can be configured to move i.e. only 1 line, possibly this can also give more sensibility.

Maybe even a pen instead of a mouse could perhaps be better and more "defined" in what you are doing compared to a finger. Think about CAD / CAM ... mices and pens are long in use for such applications which require more accurate handling, compared to "drawing" with fingers.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

I do have an audio laptop (built by Mr. DAWBench) and it sits nicely on top the the compact rack containing the UFX. But the notion of the having the iPad keeps it really compact (and it can also host my broadcast link software if I want to do a live broadcast).

I look at it this way.  Fair enough, TMFX was ported from an app that was designed around the mouse and keyboard (the iPad sits nicely in a Logitech Type+, but the finger is no substitute for a  mouse.  Right click = touch with left hand, snap your right fingers???) 

RME has done a fantastic job porting TMFX from Windows/Mac to iOS, but along the way they have lost the mouse and may not have fully compensated in the touch interface, and accounted for the wide variety of fingers out there.  Like big fat stubby ones that obscure the little pot that you are trying to adjust ... 

They may need to do a rethink on the human interface side (but within the limitations of the Apple Human Interface System) If they are going to do that, good user feedback is vital.  I'm hoping this might open up such a discussion.

Thanks for your thoughts.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

I have had similar issues. For me, I now use a laptop with mouse for most mixing, and use an iPad connected over WiFi for walking the floor, doing sound check etc.  A benefit of this system is you 1) can use a mouse most of the time (the wheel is very handy for small adjustments), and 2) on the iPad I can run Lemur of Touch OSC, both of which have larger controls using the standard templates, and the controls can be further modified if you want.

5

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

I understand the problem and like the ideas for improvement. But let me point out that the iPad (like the iPhone) includes a system-wide zoom function (can be activated under settings, General, Accessibilites or similar). A double-tap with three fingers magnifies, the amount of zoom is controlled by the finger tap not released and then performing the zoom gesture (still with three fingers). I use this one all the time on both iPad and iPhone. Will definitely help with the rotating pots.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

That's a valuable suggestion, MC - I shall go away and practice that before my next gig.

I have also remarked before that I am interested in assembling simple compact portable systems for outside broadcasting (two mics and replay facilities).  Using TMFX on iPad to control a battery-powered BabyFace Pro on location emphasises the compactness/utility of the iPad (also running the link software).  However, no ARC to fall back on this time. Snapshots are useful however.*

And, Neirbod, maybe I should get familiar with Lemur/TouchOSC ...

(*Come to mention it, I've been meaning to propose for the TMFX roadmap the facility for 'cross fade' between snapshots instead of a straight cut.  Makes the feature more valuable to me.  Sounds more elegant when live. Maybe global parameters for rates - db/second - for fade-up and fade down?  Is this possible? Anybody else find this idea makes TMFX more valuable?)

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

Yeh, I like the Zoom.  Still getting the hang of it but with a bit of practice..

Also discovered the double tap on the rotary control bringing up keyboard entry. This may also be convenient, but with the following possibilty suggested:

At present, using my Logitech Type+, cursor keys appear to work as follows: left and right, move cursor one character; up and down, move to beginning or end of string.  When working in (short) numeric fields such as associated with rotary controls, the up and down cursors might be more useful in causing incremental increase/decrease of the value in the field.  This could be a 'safer' way of tweaking gains by small amounts, as is usually the case when operating live.

Either way, very useful.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

Just as a postscript, I have been looking at Multitrack DAW.  They appear to have their own solution to this problem, as I am sure you will have noticed.

But I'm sure you will have your own suitably ingenious and unique solution in mind.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

Yesterday  I did a  test run with the above M/T DAW and the BFPro in CC via TMFX (V1.40,iPad Air 2 with Lightning to USB3 Camera Adapter,  iOS 10.3).

With M/T DAW on 'main' screen and sliding open TMFX (drag from the right 2-app mode), it appeared that TMFX did not react to touch - ie., faders did not move, pre-amp gains did not move, pre-amp gain numeric entry field did not open on touch, etc.  Level meters still appeared to function correctly, gain figures responded to manual adjustment on the BF itself.  If I went back to home screen and re-opened TMFX from there things seemed to function normally.

Should there still be full functionality with TMFX in 'split-screen' (drag out from right) mode?  Anything I need to check, please?

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

10

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

AFAIR only the main output fader can be changed in split-screen mode.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

11 (edited by panatrope 2017-04-03 08:12:07)

Re: TMFX on iPad - finger troubles?

Thanks MC.  (Phew - it's not just me!)

The iPad's not bad but at the moment it seems it's just really not suited to doing two things at once - a recording/broadcasting app and managing the BF via TMFX.  I'd like to find out how other people manage this (if they do!).

It might work better on an iPad Pro 12 inch (two mini screens side by side). But I also think that in that 'multitasking' mode, maybe the TFMX screen might need to come up in a different format (maybe as a configurable ARC-type display)?   Probably not worth the effort if not enough people are wanting to use it this way.

Maybe Apple need to come up with a faster way of switching between two running apps.  Or how about accessing TMFX through an app like Multitrack DAW?  (Over-optimising again ...)

(BTW, also discovered that  the TMFX 'Layouts' section only appears for the BFPro, not the original BF - caused a bit of momentary confusion. Now I know.  I'm sure there's a reason. )

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum