1 (edited by bejoro 2017-03-16 18:14:55)

Topic: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

At first, I have to say, this little "Thing" is really a masterpiece, regarding sound quality and feature richness. I am "high-end" audio dealer (and engineer) and I was able to compare the ADI-2 PRO to really fancy devices. Very well done!

Enough flattering.

I was having some problems achieving bit-perfect playback with JRIVER MC. Obviously the JRIVER-Audio-Engine has a problem with specific DSD bitstreaming settings. These settings should not alter the PCM path, but they do in a very significant way. The sound was o.k. but far away from great, as I knew it.

I was searching for hours for the problem. Then I installed foobar2000/ASIO and everything was fine again.

I did some measurements, spectrum analysis and bitstream analysis and with foobar2000 it was perfect, with JRIVER MC it was definitely not. Then I recalled what I had changed (too late, stupid) and reset JRIVER settings (no DSD bitstreaming, DoP) and everything was fine again.

Bit-perfect playback is always the perfect starting point in a system, for sound comparison or to go further. And you know, the system was configured properly.

Would it be possible to implement a USB bit-perfect test in the ADI-2 PRO?

That would be a great tool. To configure a Linux system with mpd/alsa for bit-perfect playback can be very difficult. But also for Windows, OSX, iOS and Android it would be very helpful.

RME could provide specific WAV/FLAC/lossless files (different sample rates, bit depths). During playback the ADI-2 PRO checks the perfect transmission and confirms bit-perfect (or not).

I don't know whether that feature would be useful for pro audio, but for me and my customers it would be of great help.

Thanks.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

2

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

We will think about how this could be added. Thanks for the suggestion, and enjoy your audio! wink

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

Hihi, you got me. smile
Thanks a lot for taking that into consideration.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

Bit perfect test are easy within PCM coding, where you have "real data" for compartment. Best to do it using SPDIF I/O.

Now when it comes to PCM at the DAC & ADC, a proper generated signal with dither will do it on the analog chain too.

For DSD the signal, a proper generated signal will do it on the analog chain too, but a compare the stream while it is very random and not easy to fulfill!

Currently I am on a DSD wave generator to support DoP / DSD native and things gets really different than as on PCM big_smile

Hp

5 (edited by bejoro 2017-03-28 16:56:04)

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

The point is, to make it as user friendly as possible and let the ADI-2 PRO do the trick. Of course recording the bitstream and compare it manually is relatively easy if you know how to do it but not so easy for the casual home user. And it costs a lot of time compared to an integrated test mode.

It would be nice to switch the ADI-2 PRO in "test mode" and then you send a file with test data. The ADI-2 PRO confirms bit-perfect (or not). Different sample reates/bit depths and even DSD would be nice.

There are very few DACs capable of that. It would be a great tool.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

6

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

hpw wasn't aware of what you asked for. We would provide 16/24/32 bit PCM test files that when played back cause status indication of 'Bit Perfect' in the State Overview screen automatically. No need to activate the mode. We are still thinking about a test signal or bit pattern that will work but doesn't produce a crazy sound or destroying DC...that is the hard part...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

@hpw: Sorry if my words appeared a bit harsh. Absolutely no offense intended.

@MC: Understood, very cool! Thanks.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

MC wrote:

We are still thinking about a test signal or bit pattern that will work but doesn't produce a crazy sound or destroying DC...that is the hard part...

I had an idea regarding the test pattern and checking procedure. I have sent you an email.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

9

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

Bit Test is now available in firmware 141/76.

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25454

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

10 (edited by bejoro 2017-04-28 14:02:10)

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

I thank you very much.

JRiver MC 22: All formats work perfectly. Now bit perfect even with DSD direct bit-streaming activated in JR MC.

Foobar2000: 16 and 24 bit ok, 32 bit file shown as 24 bit test passed.

ARM board with UBUNTU Server/MPD/UPMPDCLI: All formats work perfectly.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

With Ubuntu Server, MPD, UPMPDCLI the 192 kHz:

It seems that the 192 kHz files are too short. If I play it as a single track, nothing happens (no clicking, no message). If I play the file repeatedly (repeate playlist) it works.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

12

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

Yes, player software sometimes has problems to start and swallows samples. Or puts a fade-in and fade-out over the audio. Check if you can disable that.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

In my Ubuntu/MPD setups everything is disabled, no pause, no fading etc. It is the most direct way of playback possible.

But that is no problem for me as long as I know how to deal with it. Just a hint if other users would have similar problems.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

14

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

I uploaded a new zip where all files now play for about 1 second.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

Yepp, that's it. Works great! Thanks.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

16 (edited by misko 2017-04-30 22:43:16)

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

Foobar2000 test works, same as BEJORO (16+24 o.k., 32 o.k. but tested as 24 bit).

All tests with Samplitude failed... Tested with older versions (Samplitude Pro X and legacy Samplitude 11).
EDIT:
IT WORKS! I must completely switch off dithering in Samplitude.

Michal

--------
Skylake system, latest Win10 64, latest drivers

---
Michal Skopik
audioarchivist
Straznice/Czech Republik

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

misko wrote:

Foobar2000 test works, same as BEJORO (16+24 o.k., 32 o.k. but tested as 24 bit).

All tests with Samplitude failed... Tested with older versions (Samplitude Pro X and legacy Samplitude 11).
EDIT:
IT WORKS! I must completely switch off dithering in Samplitude.

Michal

--------
Skylake system, latest Win10 64, latest drivers


how did you get it to work in Foobar2000?
is there any specific option you have to activate?

18

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

I uploaded another new version where the files now play and sound similar, no longer offend drummers when looping, and include basic wav property info.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

19 (edited by misko 2017-05-01 15:59:00)

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

FIXXXER wrote:
misko wrote:

Foobar2000 test works, same as BEJORO (16+24 o.k., 32 o.k. but tested as 24 bit).

...
Skylake system, latest Win10 64, latest drivers


how did you get it to work in Foobar2000?
is there any specific option you have to activate?

No. Plain Foobar and latest Madiface drivers. Of course no DSP and ReplyGain deactivated.

Michal

---
Michal Skopik
audioarchivist
Straznice/Czech Republik

20 (edited by FIXXXER 2017-05-01 20:58:39)

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

EDIT:
i feel really stupid now, just realized that Foobar2000 supports ASIO playback.
i installed the required components and it does work now.

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

MusicBee is nicer and supports ASIO as well.

If you have an Android Phone there is an application to control the player via remote from Android Smartphone wink

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

22 (edited by Basken 2017-06-05 18:08:13)

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

onkel-juergen wrote:

Hi folks,
is anybody here who can explain me (completely novice) how to do a bit-perfect test?

what i did until now:

(1) Put the files on my smartphone, send it via bluetooth to a receiver, which is connected on the SPDIF coax port from the ADI 2 PRO. Start the file, I hear the noise, but no message.

Bluetooth-audio is usually compressed (aptX being an exception) and will fail the test.

onkel-juergen wrote:

(2) Connect my laptop vie USB on the ADI 2 PRO. Start the file, windows media player plays, I hear the noise, but no message.

Windows Media Player is unfortunately a poor choice, since its output goes through the windows mixer, which is not bit transparent - and so will most likely fail the test. You should look for a player which can use "WASAPI exclusive mode" or ASIO to communicate with your sound card.

Try grabbing foobar2000 and set it up in a way that use exclusive mode. Also - be sure the volume control on the player is set to 100%  - otherwise the signal gets changed and .. well, you get the idea.

Good luck!

edit: you need foobar2000 and this component: http://www.foobar2000.org/components/vi … out_wasapi

Rune Borup @ FishCorp
Producer / Engineer / Composer
RayDAT > 2 x ADI-8 QS | AES+SPDIF > ADI-2 Pro

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

Or MusicBee, as it is a very comfortably player anyway for audio playing purposes. It has also ASIO support built-in.

https://getmusicbee.com/

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

onkel-juergen wrote:

i did it, i got the message and it works now. thanx both of you. faster for me was musicbee to install.
going one steep back, what tells me this test? my port and wire is fine, i can continue with playing music with any player (win media player) or i need to play always with musicbee or foobar?

You need to use Musicbee, or another player that passes the test. The test simply tells you that the audio passes 100% unaltered from player to soundcard - and does so because it bypasses parts of the windows audio system, that can alter the audio. It does come at a price though: your soundcard is "exclusive" to the player while you are using it, meaning you have to close it to listen to audio from your browser or anything outside of the player.

Personally i think a good glass of wine will improve your listening experience more than the difference between bit-perfect playback and the standard windows audio path. big_smile

Rune Borup @ FishCorp
Producer / Engineer / Composer
RayDAT > 2 x ADI-8 QS | AES+SPDIF > ADI-2 Pro

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

Basken wrote:

Personally i think a good glass of wine will improve your listening experience more than the difference between bit-perfect playback and the standard windows audio path. big_smile

Very nice - and agreed 100% (not that I've compared myself).  We should all keep this in mind (everything is relative, we often get lost in the unimportant minutia and associated rabbit holes).  Even a pricey $20 glass of wine (!) could help audiophiles save thousands of dollars while likely improving their enjoyment smile

Back on topc! cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

The Bit-Perfect-Test is a great tool. If successful it will tell you, that your signal chain does not alter the digital data.

Operating systems or player software, libraries, filters, configurations can alter the digital audio data in a significant way. To create an absolute reproduceable environment you need defined conditions.

And yes, it is audible and not a very good idea to use the Windows Media Player or Linux Pulse Audio etc. If you want the maximum audio quality you will have to create a bit-perfect chain.

And very important not only for the pro world but much more for the audiophile user who wants perfect sound quality, because they often do not have the technical knowledge.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

Is it nornal when I play 32 bit file it will flash 24 bit on the display?  Tried in Sound froge 11 and foobar2000.

28 (edited by bejoro 2017-07-03 08:51:29)

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

I have not tested Sound Forge.

As already mentioned, it is "normal".

Foobar2000 uses 32 Bit floating point processing internaly. That limits the actual PCM output frame size to 24 Bit. That is absolutely no problem. If you intend to use 32 Bit audio files you have to use another playback software, e. g. JRiver Media Center.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

With MusicBee 3.0.6335 only the 96kHz Bit perfect tests succeed.

1st none of them did, then I recognized that the volume slider was not at 100%.
This you can't recognize. I noticed it when moving the slider to the right, then I saw it really moved very little but noticeably.

If somebody uses MusicBee as well, could you kindly test and report success or not and the version ? Thanks !

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

New AE edition owner here. What a device!

I just tried this bit perfect test with Musicbee. ASIO works, but with WASAPI only 44.1kHz tracks. Any ideas why?

I would also like to hear RME's opinion on which one to use - ASIO or WASAPI, or are both the same, if they pass the bit perfect test?

31 (edited by ramses 2017-07-10 15:52:43)

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

soundwave wrote:

New AE edition owner here. What a device!

I just tried this bit perfect test with Musicbee. ASIO works, but with WASAPI only 44.1kHz tracks. Any ideas why?

I would also like to hear RME's opinion on which one to use - ASIO or WASAPI, or are both the same, if they pass the bit perfect test?

ASIO driver are preferable as they completely bypass the Windows sound system and thus can deliver best performance in terms of least delay and best accuracy. Next best choice is WASAPI.

Best use the RME Asio driver in either MusicBee or Foobar which have a good support for ASIO drivers.

In the recording area ASIO drivers are being used exclusively for the mentioned reasons.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

32

Re: ADI-2 PRO - bit-perfect Test?

I don't know Musicbee, but most probably you forgot to set the correct sample rate in the ADI-2 Pro panel (required for Windows sound to not perform sample rate conversion).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME