Topic: Thunderbolt pci card

Can the Fireface UFX be used together with a thunderbolt pci express card?
Reason for asking is that im building a new pc and wonder if i should get a thunderbolt pci card.

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

UFX+ yes
UFX, UFX II no
UFX eventually via thunderbolt to firewire adapter, but then its firewire, not thunderbolt native.

Not sure whether you know this .. the mainboard needs to support thunderbolt as well !!!
You can't simply upgrade any mainboard by just plugging in a thunderbolt PCIe card.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

ramses wrote:

UFX+ yes
UFX, UFX II no
UFX eventually via thunderbolt to firewire adapter, but then its firewire, not thunderbolt native.

Not sure whether you know this .. the mainboard needs to support thunderbolt as well !!!
You can't simply upgrade any mainboard by just plugging in a thunderbolt PCIe card.

My new mother board supports thunderbolt, but i need to get the Asus ThunderboltEX III PCIe card from Asus.
I am tempted to get it because its not very expensive, but i dont have enough slots for both the firewire card and a thunderbolt card. So thats why i was asking if it would work with a thunderbolt card and some adapter so i can continue to use the UFX.
I know it will still be a firewire connection, but its better that using two different pcie cards.

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

I am not 100% sure whether a Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter can be used also for Windows.
Maybe browse the forum for that.
Which Windows version btw ?

Not enough PCIe slots ? Which board do you want to buy ? How many cards do you need to mount ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

ramses wrote:

I am not 100% sure whether a Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter can be used also for Windows.
Maybe browse the forum for that.
Which Windows version btw ?

Not enough PCIe slots ? Which board do you want to buy ? How many cards do you need to mount ?

Its Windows 10.
I already bought the Asus X299-A. Its got 6 slots but the graphic card blocks one slot so i got 4 left (2 x4 and 2 x16)
I need to install a network card and maybe a USB 3 card also, plus the firewire card. So i will have one left slot.

But i just discovered that the firewire card doesnt actually fit any of the slots?? Thats interesting. This i need to google. If this is the case i hope i can use a thunderbolt card instead with an adapter..

6 (edited by ramses 2017-07-09 09:13:02)

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

You can also plug normal PCIe cards into -x4, -x8, -x16 sockets.

You only need to check manual whether it impacts the primary graphic card to switch to x8 or not.
Could be the case that the lower x16 socket maybe does not cause issues.

Why you need to install a network card ? You want 10Gb Ethernet ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

ramses wrote:

You can also plug normal PCIe cards into -x4, -x8, -x16 sockets.

You only need to check manual whether it impacts the primary graphic card to switch to x8 or not.
Could be the case that the lower x16 socket maybe does not cause issues.

Why you need to install a network card ? You want 10Gb Ethernet ?

I am using Asus AC68, its for Wifi, im not using an ethernet cable.

No need to check the manual. The firewire card does not fit anyways. Its a PCI card and there are only PCIE slots on the MB.

8 (edited by ramses 2017-07-09 10:08:52)

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

Alternatively you could implement a dLAN solution which I did at home.

Before my wife also used an 802.11ac card. Now she is very happy that we implemented
this dLAN solution as we could switch off wireless in the whole appartement.

The Devolo products are IMHO advanced, they offer a good performance, product line and
a nice Cockpit application which tells you the bandwidth to the different dLAN adapters and
allows you to patch and upgrade.

Drivers of WLAN adapters might have an impact on the latency of the CPU internally of your system.
I personally would prefer for a recording workstation to use ethernet based LAN.
Then you also would not have the issue that the number of PCIe slots shrinks so quickly.

I am using this starter kit to make the main connection between Internet Router and the 2nd PC, which is at the far end of the room to avoid long cabling:
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/dev … 50679.html

Then I am additionally using this older product as it offers 3 LAN connections which are fully sufficient for my home TV solution to get internet access and to stream videos. By this I can connect: TV, Bluray Player and Sky+:
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/dev … 53356.html

Then I have at the other end of the appartment 2 rooms, which require WLAN for a Radio (streaming client for internet) and another TV, for this I use a Powerline device which can expand our WLAN:
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/dev … 64623.html
Very nice is the push button on this device which allows for quick enabling and disabling of WiFi.

This might be a better approach for a Recording Workstation compared to use an 802.11ac PCIe adapter where you always need to worry about the efficiency of WiFi driver not to block your cores too much.

My dLAN cockpit tells me the following available Bandwidth from the source to the satellite dLAN adapters:
Same Room 915 Mbps (of "1200"), to Multimedia 327 Mbps (of "650"), far room 631 Mbps (of "1200").

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

That seems like a pretty pro solution. Maybe a bit to advanced for me, especially at the moment as i have so much other stuff i need to deal with. My approach at the moment is having a dual boot system with one OS that is a "regular" windows install and the other that is used as a daw only and stripped down/deactivated/uninstalled everything that is not daw related and/or can cause any trouble. So i have to decide what i want to do when booting the machine. Its been working very well.

But the question for me now is if i should buy a new firewire pcie card or the thunderbolt card. Guess i need to find out if an adapter can be used between the UFX and the TB card. I tried a bit of googling but couldnt find a good answer. Need to investigate some more.

10 (edited by ramses 2017-07-09 12:55:28)

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

Start only with the starter kit which is only €99.
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/dev … 50679.html

Your ASUS WLAN adapter costs already €70.
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/asu … 93303.html

There are 3 reasons not to use WiFi adapter which IMHO justifies spending ONLY €20 more.
- WLAN driver could potentially cause latency issues
- Robs you a PCIe slot
- Less radiation around you
- less heat inside of the case.

What I do not understand .. you say you have an UFX.
If you need to be cost conservative pls allow me these questions:
1. for what do you need thunderbolt ?
2. for what do you need Firewire ?
3. for what do you need so many USB3 ports ?

If I were you I would make it really simple to the point
1. get the DLAN solution for €99
2. save the cost for the thunderbolt adapter
3. save the cost for the thunderbolt to Firewire adapter
4. leave the firewire card out of the case
5. connect the UFX to an USB2 port which is fully sufficient for 30 i/o channels
6. connect the PC via Gigabit Ethernet to the dlan solution

There are additional advantages by connecting the UFX via USB.
You can perform firmware upgrades via USB only, so take one cable and perform everything over it.

Look here in my blog article how well the USB implementations of RME perform.
You will see everything of interest, RTT values for
- RayDAT and UFX in front of it as preamp
- UFX via USB and Firewire
- UFX+ via USB3 and Thunderbolt

Look how close UFX+ performs with USB3 compared to thunderbolt.
And look how close UFX performs ...
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … 8-RME-UFX/
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/1931-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-jpg/

IMHO you can save a lot of bucks if you keep it simple.

And having fewer hardware in the computer generates less interrupt load which means, from this you also benefit when doing recording ... less heat .. etc ... less likeliness that a bogus driver sits on the same CPU like your DAW related processes ... at the end ... a more agile system.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

11 (edited by ramses 2017-07-09 11:44:21)

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

corea wrote:

My approach at the moment is having a dual boot system with one OS that is a "regular" windows install and the other that is used as a daw only and stripped down/deactivated/uninstalled everything that is not daw related and/or can cause any trouble. So i have to decide what i want to do when booting the machine. Its been working very well.

Doesnt pay out nowadays. The hardware and the operating systems are since Win7 so powerful and stable, that its wasted administration effort to maintain and secure 2 systems. Its IMHO a waste of time.

I am doing with my system EVERYTHING. Recording, Video editing, Office, Gaming.
Even my Internet Security Software (be it norton, or Kaspersky) does not hurt my system.

I am connecting really many devices which you normally would not connect to a recording system.
USB Bluetooth adapter, then on demand a Bluetooth headset, etc etc.

And my system is performant and stable and I have still extraordinary low LatencyMon results.
Also for your office work a nice fine tuned recording system is very nice.
And nothing, no services are missing from that tuning for audio.

I am fine tuning systems for audio now for a very long time and got a certain perfection in it.

The best that you can do is to invest into a reliable backup solution so that its easy and
fast for your to come back to a workable system.
- Get Macrium Reflect
- one additional internal backup disk
- one additional external eSATA/USB3.1/USB3 based backup disk

Macrium Reflect is really a good and reliable solution.
Especially nice working together with SSDs.

Shall I have a problem, then a full restore to the previous state usually costs me not more
than 2 minuts (I have a 512GB primary SSD which is with 315GB of data filled.

Macrium has a rapid delta restore mechanism, which replaces only the changed blocks of a SSD and
also supports TRIM.

Therefore a full restore to previous state goes this fast. Also beneficial to keep the "wear" on your SSD low.

Here a link to articles describing my system and the measured latency values:

http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … mponenten/

BIOS optimization
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … -X10SRi-F/

Better CPU cooler and suitable fan for Supermicro Blower control
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … arrow-ILM/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

That DLAN solution seems like a very good idea. And an affordable investment.
Im glad youve mentioned it, i had no idea this was possible.
My computer is in my bedroom so thats why i dont want to drag cables from my living room, where the internet access point is, all the way to the bedroom. So i figured ill go for a wifi card instead, but that was 2 years ago. Ill try to get one of those starter kits and see how it goes.

I really didnt know that the USB and firewire connection on the ufx have such similar performance.
I am going to try without a firewire card and use the usb connection instead. If it performs just as well i might stick to the usb solution. I am a heavy user of virtual instruments like orchestras in kontakt 5, Omnisphere etc and many tracks. So i thought i needed a firewire connection to get the best performance possible.

And thanks for all the tips about the backup programs and solutions. Ill look into that when i got the system up and running.
I just finished building my pc. It has a Be Quiet Dark Rock Pro 3 cpu cooler which is a monstrous awesome looking cooler:)

13 (edited by ramses 2017-07-09 17:33:58)

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

You're welcome. In terms of performance you do not require necessarily a PCIe card or Firewire, look here in my blog article, english version behind the german version: http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … cks-de-en/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

Not sure if you're original question still needs an answer but I can speak to recording from a FF800/802 pair over TB2 & TB3.

The FW interfaces are the LSI/Agere FW643 family chips used in the Apple TB2->FW dongles and the OWC TB2 & TB3 docks.  The dongles will dead-end the TB chain so the docks let me get enough 1394b ports for the two Firefaces.

The Apple FW dongles are selling here for US$29 and the docks weren't an extra cost since I have them anyway for laptops.

I run the TB2 setups on Win7 and the TB3 connections on both Win7 & Win10.  If I daisy-chain the Firefaces the system will choke and turn blue when I bring up DIGICheck.  I quit trying to do that and use one FF per host port ever since I spotted a post from MC that hinted (or just plain said?) not to do that.

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

ramses wrote:

You're welcome. In terms of performance you do not require necessarily a PCIe card or Firewire, look here in my blog article, english version behind the german version: http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … cks-de-en/

I couldnt find any of those Devolo kits in the store, but they had a Zyxel starter kit which i bought. So far kit its been working great. So much better than dealing with a wifi card and an external antenna.

What surprises me is that when looking at the tests it seems that the firewire connection has a higher latency than the usb connection. Im about to install the usb driver for the UFX, hopefully it will work just as good as with a firewire connection.

16 (edited by ramses 2017-07-11 20:50:02)

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

On my mainboard it didnt matter whether to use USB or FW. Get quality USB2 cable, not longer than 2-3m.

With other boards it can be different.

If your mainboards USB implementation has an issue then go for the Sonnet 4-port card with Fresco Chipset.
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/son … 79334.html

Its a fabulous card with 4 USB3 controller on it, 1 dedicated per port !

This chipset has been mentioned in the UFX+ handbook as supported for USB3.
Its fully USB2 compatible and it works really great in my system driving 2 UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

17 (edited by corea 2017-07-14 21:03:14)

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

ramses wrote:

On my mainboard it didnt matter whether to use USB or FW. Get quality USB2 cable, not longer than 2-3m.

With other boards it can be different.

If your mainboards USB implementation has an issue then go for the Sonnet 4-port card with Fresco Chipset.
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/son … 79334.html

Its a fabulous card with 4 USB3 controller on it, 1 dedicated per port !

This chipset has been mentioned in the UFX+ handbook as supported for USB3.
Its fully USB2 compatible and it works really great in my system driving 2 UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro.

Im not sure about the chipset on the usb card. Its name is Fresco Logic USB3 extensible hostcontroller 1.0. It has 4 usb ports.
Im not sure if its any better than the mainboard implementation. The mainboard came out just last month so its pretty new.
I need 10 usb ports for external devices. Presonus faderport, sub 37, korg ms20 controller, doepfer dark time, analog4, octatrack, ms20mini,seaboard rise, studiologic sl88 and ufx. Do you think it can cause any trouble with too many usb ports in use?

Re: Thunderbolt pci card

Try it out, nobody can predict. But if you need more quality ports with USB controller directiony behind the port (without a HUB in front of it) then I think this is a very good and reliable card. At least for me it did well.

In your mainboard you will have USB implemented into the chipset of either Intel or AMD.
How it is exactly designed, I can't tell.
But I know that I had issues because it can happen that things influence each other.
So taking an independend PCIe based USB3 card can be a solution to workaround things.

If you have no issues, then you don't need the card, if you have issues, simply try it.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13