• Registered: 2017-11-09
  • Posts: 10

Topic: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

Hello! Im planning to build a Micro ATX PC for live gigs. I want to get the best portable solution (cause I already have many gear to carry...) I play E Drums with a bunch of MIDI controllers using Drum racks and FX in Ableton Live.

So I´ve been researching and I want a PCI RME interface because of its stability and low latency.

It is not really and affordable solution cause at least I need 16 outputs and PCIe interfaces are not that cheap and moreover , you have to expand with MADI , AES or ADAT.

I was thinking on getting a Hammerfall HDSP 9652 And a pair of AEB8-O , and that would give me 16 outputs directly from the CPU to the mixer.

Problem is that nowadays , almost no motherboard (and specially no micro or mini ATX) come with PCI Slots anymore , but I´ve found this Gigabyte motherboard , which I would use with a 7700K Processor :

http://www.game-debate.com/motherboard/ … ev.%201.0)

The other possible solution would be to get a new Ryadat with a pair of ADAT systems , but I´m concerned about the added latency.

But the biggest and main question is : Is there such a difference (specially talking about latency , stability and performance) between the RME PCI and PCIe cards?...

And also , I think that if the latency trip happens inside the PC (HDSP With AEB8-O) it would be lower than the HDSPe Ryadat to ADAT system? I´m not sure about this... could some one explain this?

Thanks! and take care!

  • vinark
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Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

All examples do not have really different latencies. Adat does not add latency, only the DA converters do (but those are also in the AEB boards)  but it is very little compared to the asio buffer. Your main issue is getting a powerfull and stable enough system for running ableton at low latencies.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

3 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
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  • Registered: 2007-04-06
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Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

There is no difference between PCI and PCIe, unless your computer generates one.

The AEB8-O has only unbalanced outputs. Using this card live with a mixer calls for ground loop problems.

There is no 'added' latency as all solutions need to use a DAC, therefore have the typical analog conversion latency.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • ramses
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  • Registered: 2012-10-14
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Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

For a quick comparison

http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/1931-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-jpg

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2017-11-09
  • Posts: 10

Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

So for instance... I would get same or closely same latency round trip if I use the on board cards with the PCI than If I use the new Raydat with to for example , a behringer A-8200?

  • vinark
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Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

Beatmachinery wrote:

So for instance... I would get same or closely same latency round trip if I use the on board cards with the PCI than If I use the new Raydat with to for example , a behringer A-8200?

Yes

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • Registered: 2017-11-09
  • Posts: 10

Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

So I think that for the sake of a better future investment I will go with the RyDAT as it does not add latency to the round trip.

Thanks!

  • Registered: 2017-11-09
  • Posts: 10

Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

I´ve been doing research and I´ve found that nowadays PCI Slots in modern Motherboards are bridged and could represent a problem regarding stability and performance of the soundcard and system. Is this true?

Having said that and reading all your post (which I really appreciate and I´ve learned a lot) I think I may go for the RyDAT card with two ADAT systems and mount them on a custom build rack.

But guess what?...

I could mount the PC too. Check this PC Mini ITX case:

https://smallformfactor.net/wp-content/uploads/nfc-s4-mini-9.jpg

My only concern is about the cooling and the noise comming from the CPU fan. Could this affect the Soundcard? Do you think this idea could be a succesfull one?

What do you think?

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2017-11-10 07:18:09)

  • ramses
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Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

If you want a proven noise optimized system with a high quality supermicro mainboard, then look what I put together:

http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … mponenten/

Although 3y old its still an attractive system, because it costs compared to Intel / Threadripper CPUs in the range of €1000 only 60% of the price but delivers also 60% of their performance if you compare passmark values.

So the passmark / price ratio is still on par with more modern CPUs.

You get a noise optimized silent PC, which at the same time is highly expandable: http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … mponenten/

Reliability of enterprise grade components (Xeon 6-core, still high single thread performane, ECC RAM).

Performance, look here:
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … cks-de-en/

Optimizations that I did for this system:
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … -X10SRi-F/
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … arrow-ILM/
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … al-Design/

Works beautiful with two UFX+, two Octamic XTC (via MADI), RayDAT and ADI-2 Pro.

Possibly not needed, but recommended to get this USB3 card, if you connect several recording interfaces like me:
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/sta … 03149.html

For external backup I recommend this USB3.1 gen2 combination:
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/sta … 03149.html
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/sta … 29902.html

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,843

Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

Beatmachinery wrote:

I´ve been doing research and I´ve found that nowadays PCI Slots in modern Motherboards are bridged and could represent a problem regarding stability and performance of the soundcard and system. Is this true?

With moderate channel numbers, this seems to work fine, and "stability" as such isn't really a criterion. But of course it depends on the individual mainboard.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
  • Posts: 3,025

Re: PCI vs PCIe , Differences? Latency?

A good bridge chip works just as good as a native PCIe solution. There are different bridge chipsets and mainboard implementations out there, though.

There are also add-on solutions that work fine:

"The Startech card uses a Pericom Semiconductor PI7C9X113 PCI Express to PCI-X Bridge. This is a good thing, because I had good experience with the PI7C9X111 in another adapter. Both the Startech card and the other adapter allow me to drive RME PCI cards down to 32 samples buffer.

On the other hand I had a bad experience (as in did not work at all) with a PCI adapter card that looks similar to the Startech, but used an Asmedia based chipset. That being said, I think it was more a thing of these cards being cheap (10+ EUR compared to 40+ EUR for the Startech) than a problem of the chipset. Asus/Asrock boards usually use a current revision of the Asmedia ASM1083 chipset, which in the past I tested to be working properly, but older revisions caused trouble for some people. My Z87 Gigabyte board uses a IT8892E.

One drawback of the Startech card is that you absolutely need to use the power-cable, even though there should be enough power from the PCIe bus. My Pericom based adapter even drives two (2) PCI cards from the PCIe bus alone. It does provide an extra power-plug (SATA based), but I don't need to use it for the RME cards.

My PC case offers a single vertical slot opening. This allows me to combine the Startech card with an extender cable and then have a RME card properly installed in the case. You need to be careful with these extender cables, because the quality is not so great. I had one solder pin bent to its neighboring pin, which I noticed before using the cable and then fixed with a soldering iron.

If your old audio card doesn't work then this can be a sign that the card itself has some defect, too. The DSP MADI shown in the image sometimes causes my PC not to boot when it's used with the Startech + extender cable, a AES works without problems. In this case I happen to know that my MADI card had some defects for some time (aka needs repair), so the adapter problems are just a symptom of those card based defects.

http://i.imgur.com/lymly7O.jpg?1

My other mentioned Pericom based adapter is this Sintech one (bought via Ebay from China):

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3GYAAMXQrhdTVPhS/s-l500.jpg

They also sell a 5.1/4" slot/external chassis based solution:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ITQAAOSwxCxT9xse/s-l500.jpg"