• Registered: 2018-01-31
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Topic: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

Hi,
I’m considering bying an RME UCX and i wanted to ask if it’s possible to do parallel compression inside totalmix..I like UCX’s compact size cause it can fit easily into my bag and the ins/outs are exactly the right number for my band’s needs.I use a Tempest/MPC Live combo,my bandmate an MPC 2500 and our female singer a Mic that needs a good preamp that goes inside my MPC Live’s input for real-time manipulation using the touch screen or Qlink knobs.In my studio i can tighten up our mix using a parallel compressor rack i’ve created inside Ableton Live but for our live gigs i don’t want to bring a laptop on stage so that’s why i’m asking for this..And no i don’t want to bring a console either cause i also consider buying a UDG Producer Bag (Small) to fit all my stuff inside.

Thanks!

  • Registered: 2018-01-31
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

I'm amazed!No one has tried parallel compression with UCX?Wow....

  • From: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

I assume parallel compression refers to sidechain compression where in fact the compressor acts to increase low level but drops out on high level leaving the straight-through path. In the old analog days this was intended to avoid problems of transient distortion and overshoot, when devices could not readily include memory to allow "lookahead" operation (an old BBC limiter was the first to do this, quite expensively).

Doing it inside a device like the UCX may be a bit restricted, given different delays that may exist in process.  But RME might like to give an opinion about implementing such an approach within a single-channel implementation of its limiting, if sufficient people were able to see an advantage in this.  Maybe it needs to remain an outboard effect.  Certainly in the implementation of dynamics processing, one of the restrictions was the amount of memory that could be allocated to it.  Maybe this has changed with recent hardware upgrades.

I know the attractions of past techniques for the results they produced then has wide appeal.  Maybe this is an idea whose time has passed in the digital age.

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum

4 Reply by yorgosarabatzis (edited by yorgosarabatzis 2018-02-08 01:47:39)

  • Registered: 2018-01-31
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

No i'm not talking about side-chaining here...The principle of Parallel compression works like this:
Run parallel 2 copies of your mix the 1st one dry and the other one through a hard compressor.The benefit of this powerful technique is that your mix will not sound squashed like if it was controlled only by a compressor because it contains also the full dynamic dry signal.So what you'll hear is the best of both worlds...A tight,controllable but also dynamic mix ;-)
That's how a professional mix sounds like..
For example imagine something like this inside Ableton Live:
2 copies of the same loop (via Send) goes to the master but one is compressed...

https://i.imgur.com/HFOlKr9.png

5 Reply by MC

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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

TotalMix FX is mainly a monitor mixer. Before we would add something like this we would have to add a zillion other, more often requested features...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2018-01-31
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

I’ll borrow a UCX from a friend of mine and i’ll give it a shot using the inputs/outputs..

Thanks

  • vinark
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

I think it is possible, but I only have totalmix without FX cards (older hdsps) so can't try. Don't forget you have a loopback function!
On another note (thinking as a producer , musician and ex live mixer) I don't think parallel compression is very useful for live. I use it for adding some excitement to a mix, but live you should have all the excitement you need...plus at the higher volumes used live your ears are already compressing the sound, that is why we like the sound of compression, it is a natural phenomena at higher volumes, just as distortion.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

8 Reply by yorgosarabatzis (edited by yorgosarabatzis 2018-02-08 13:35:47)

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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

Thanks Vincent!
I don’t own an RME interface yet so what’s the loopback function for?
Great explanation of the Live environment i’d like to give it a shot though..

vinark wrote:

I think it is possible, but I only have totalmix without FX cards (older hdsps) so can't try. Don't forget you have a loopback function!
On another note (thinking as a producer , musician and ex live mixer) I don't think parallel compression is very useful for live. I use it for adding some excitement to a mix, but live you should have all the excitement you need...plus at the higher volumes used live your ears are already compressing the sound, that is why we like the sound of compression, it is a natural phenomena at higher volumes, just as distortion.

9 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2018-02-08 14:02:40)

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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

With the loopback function you can send an output back to an input (meant for recording), but could maybe also be used for a second parallel processing round.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

10 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2018-02-08 14:04:54)

  • ramses
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

If you want to record i.e. from a windows application.
You can simply take any output channel, that you dont require.
You can route to this output channel everything you want.
Once you activate the loopback function on this HW output channel, i.e. ADAT 7/8,
then you can use the corresponding HW input channel, ADAT 7/8 to record everything that you routed to this output.
This is very easy to use and pretty much straight forward.
These "virtual cables" saves you many patch cables ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • vinark
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

Ramses, can you also use the FX eg compressor on the loopback?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

12 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2018-02-08 14:21:28)

  • ramses
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

Hi vinark,

if I am not mistaken you can use this option from driver settings dialog for this purpose:
( x ) EQ+D for Record

I read this in a forum thread, try it out, I personally do not require this.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

Well,that’s what i needed to hear..If you can hook EQ+Comp on the loopback channel then we have a go!Tommorow when i’ll get my hands on the UCX i’ll solve the mystery...

vinark wrote:

With the loopback function you can send an output back to an input (meant for recording), but could maybe also be used for a second parallel processing round.

14 Reply by Randyman... (edited by Randyman... 2018-02-08 16:11:55)

  • From: Houston, TX
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

TM Loopback Routing latency plus the miniscule processing latency of TMFX's EQ/Dynamics will be an issue and cause comb filtering against the dry channel.

You can probably "Double loopback" by sending that input to two output channels, and loopback both of those outputs.  The two loopback'ed inputs having all of the same modules engaged, but the "Dry" channel would have EQ gains, dynamics threshold and ratio set to not affect the signal.  That should produce sample-accurate parallel compression...

A simpler alternative would be to feed the same physical input to two physical RME inputs (mult/split the input signal in front of the RME) and process on two TMFX input channels without the need for looopback.  Would still probably need to engage the EQ and Dynamics modules on the "Dry" channel as mentioned above...

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
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  • vinark
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

Randyman... wrote:

TM Loopback Routing latency plus the miniscule processing latency of TMFX's EQ/Dynamics will be an issue and cause comb filtering against the dry channel.

You can probably "Double loopback" by sending that input to two output channels, and loopback both of those outputs.  The two loopback'ed inputs having all of the same modules engaged, but the "Dry" channel would have EQ gains, dynamics threshold and ratio set to not affect the signal.  That should produce sample-accurate parallel compression...

A simpler alternative would be to feed the same physical input to two physical RME inputs (mult/split the input signal in front of the RME) and process on two TMFX input channels without the need for looopback.  Would still probably need to engage the EQ and Dynamics modules on the "Dry" channel as mentioned above...

cool

Great thinking!!!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • From: Houston, TX
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

Lol - Thanks vinark!

I would add - the TMFX dynamics are not exactly something I would default to for a "Smashed Parallel Bus" thing.  They don't do fast attack smashing like an 1176 or something will.

It might work OK on a vocal or something to fill it out.  Only way to know is to try it smile

If parallel compressing live/open mics, just keep a handle on gain-before-feedback as this can quickly get out of control in a live/PA situation and toast your horns (and your audience's ears!) before you know it.  You'll probably want to keep the parallel chain out of the floor monitor mix (unless using IEM's)...

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

Randyman... wrote:

TM Loopback Routing latency plus the miniscule processing latency of TMFX's EQ/Dynamics will be an issue and cause comb filtering against the dry channel.:

This is what I was alluding to in a very general way.  I certainly concur with other remarks about its applicability in certain circumstances.

Maybe "back to basics" and consider the end result you are trying to achieve and then look at it from the perspective of what your device can already do to achieve it. Know your RME and RTFM!

De gustibus - et sonus - non est disputandum
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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

panatrope wrote:
Randyman... wrote:

TM Loopback Routing latency plus the miniscule processing latency of TMFX's EQ/Dynamics will be an issue and cause comb filtering against the dry channel.:

This is what I was alluding to in a very general way.

Just re-read your post - Indeed you did smile  I can be a bit 'dense' at times (most times!).  Always enjoy your (panatrope's) posts here!

A wet/dry mix knob in the TMFX dynamics section would address this in the simplest sample-accurate form IMO (for the user, not for the RME coders - lol wink ).  But as we both touched on, that is not really TMFX's focus (nor should it be IMO).  A 5.1 master section and Speaker-C plus unlimited Headphone Outs are WAY more important! (at least I hope).

Answer? Use a DAW for that kind of control
(read 'control' as "Realtime Audio Manipulation").

Self rebuttal: I know part of the argument was against a PC DAW.

I'm sure you know there are some crazy tiny PC's these days, and as long as you use an Intel USB3 port with a modern RME USB3 interface, you can enjoy delicious realtime VST plugins "live" just as you do at home.  Performance you will pay for, but performance that will satisfy.
(yup - that was a 'bolded period' for effect!)

That is all for now...

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

19 Reply by Randyman... (edited by Randyman... 2018-02-09 03:08:07)

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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

And nevermind about loopback and expecting a "live" mix from TMFX:

A loopback input only gets sent to the ASIO driver.  The physical (hardware) input is always what TM is always using as its input source for the top row input mixer...  I forgot about that fact (unless it has changed in TMFX?)

So - DAW it is (or mult/split in front of RME input and feed two physical inputs) wink

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

20 Reply by MC

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Re: Parallel Compression inside totalmix

Yes, the wet/dry control (that we graphically have no space to include) could do it. Setting the compressor settings correctly should also do it IMHO. Apart from the phase and other unavoidable colorations in this 'parellel processing', a quick compressor set only to higher levels (like a limiter) should provide at least something similar. Apart from that the compressor can be quite quick, I have no problems to emulate even digital compressing with it (not as perfect as such, of course). See factory presets.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website