• Registered: 2018-03-30
  • Posts: 27

Topic: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

Raydat user over here. I would love to integrate a digi patchbay, so i bought the friendchip DMX12
but when in use the sync-check window shows toggeling between sync and lock. I did not made more testing (frustrated because i phoned the boss of friendchip before and he said this case would be very unlikely), but i am not sure if it will produce audio artefacts like dropouts and so.

Does anybody has the same issue and is there a workaround, does anybody knows a patching device that will stay in sync or is it normal that any digital device in between will cause a latency that will ever prevent proper sync?

  • From: Houston, TX
  • Registered: 2007-05-11
  • Posts: 1,198

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

That seems to be a pass-thru only type router/switcher - maybe with a Distribution Amp function to allow one-to-many routing?  If it was asynchronously re-clocking or something - I could see some potential for issues.

Using Toslink/ADAT or Coax RCA?  If Optical, could be bad/dirty cables or optical receivers/transmitters.  If Coax, could be bad cables or even ground loop interference.

That's all I got cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8
  • Registered: 2018-03-30
  • Posts: 27

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

thanks, i think it has some kind of an amp inside. Dirty cables causes the problem not for sure! Had the same issues with Adat patchbays from Hosa and long time ago a midiman digipatch.
One day i had the genius idea to make me some faceplates with Adat connections (strange one cannot buy those things).
Model: 1 HE faceplate, drilling machine, 8 cheap Adat connectors and a ton of hot glue. Luckily this is working without any
sync problems.
Today i think its this, every "activ" part inside an adat patchbay will prevent proper syncing and RME seems very unforgivingly
in this respect. But i wonder why the hell are those things on the market? I mean RME is (at least with the digiface, HDP9652, raydat...) the market leader in optical interfaces and if they wont work flawless with RME whatever are they good for?
And yes i am talking explicit from FRIENCHIP, about 500€  for a device that doesnt work properly with RME? What the F***
Again, i phoned Mr. Bergler and he said he is not knowing of such issues. Haha...i had that bad gut feeling in advance and thats why i phoned him.

I would love to hear from someone who uses an adat patchbay/router without this problems. (guess it has to be an RME made device also)

  • cyrano
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Belgium
  • Registered: 2015-04-28
  • Posts: 701

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

Some older ADAT routers (Fostex, Alesis, M-Audio...) even truncate a 24 bit signal to 16 bit. No mention of this at all in their manuals.

I've been reading about these ADAT routers for a while now. I was under the impression the Friendchip one was one of the four better ones. The second one, the Z-SYS OptiPatch, is no longer in production.

The third one is from Appsys. It's a router/converter, the Multiverter:

https://appsys.ch/en/products/digital-f … ter-mvr-64

I haven't yet found any user experiences. It's the same price level as RME's own router/converter, the MADI router (<3.000 €):

http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/madi_router.php

I think I'll scrap the router idea and go for ADAT to UTP converters from appsys.ch. I know these work well. And they're affordable. Just no routing.

I have to add that my Core Sound 2496 preamp also shows a blinking sync LED on the FF400, yet works perfectly. So maybe it's not a real issue?

If you already have it, why not test it?

MB Pro - 2 X FireFace 400, FF800 & DigiFace USB
ADAT gear: Korg, Behri, Fostex, Alesis...

cyrano's Website

  • Registered: 2018-03-30
  • Posts: 27

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

thanks cyrano, very usefull infos.
both high end solutions are way to expensive for a project studio. but i wonder how they
manage to keep the sync because there must be a latency by processing the data streem, isnˋt it?
me too thought the frienchip would be a better device then a 20 year old midiman digipatch.
even bigger my dissapointment (we are talkin about a device that is still new to buy).
i have some appsys adat splitter/extender laying around, just for curiousity i will put one in the chain to see if the sync stays stable.

btw: will the status of toggling between lock and sync degrade audio for sure?
if connection a converter as a master (one optical cable only) the synccheck show the status "lock" and it sounds ok without dropouts and crackling. Can someone confirm that the syncheck stay on sync
with an appsys or RME patcher/router in the chain?

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,847

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

docdoghouse wrote:

btw: will the status of toggling between lock and sync degrade audio for sure?
if connection a converter as a master (one optical cable only) the synccheck show the status "lock" and it sounds ok without dropouts and crackling

This is still an incorrect setup. Set the RME device/card to sync to incoming ADAT, not to internal clock... Does that help?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2018-03-30
  • Posts: 27

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

hallo herr Fuchs,
thanks for chiming in. i know this is an incorrect setup and normaly i slave everything to the rme raydat.
One important question: the status when synccheck is toggling between lock and sync, caused by the friendchip dmx12, does this degrade audio or is it acceptaple?

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
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  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,859

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

Put simply sync is acceptable and lock not (I know you know that). So when lock is shown you are loosing data. If this is audible every time is another question. It is most detectable on low sine waves. In complex audio it is easily hidden if you loose a sample. If you get no clicks on a low sine wave, it is your decision if you find the situation acceptable.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,847

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

I would not use the term "degrade" - the audio between the clicks resulting from incorrect sync will be perfect....

That said, what is the card set to, internal clock or ADAT?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2018-03-30
  • Posts: 27

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

yes i understand that the term "degrade" was wrong.
i have a rather complex setup with a Raydat, 02R96 (normally the Master) one 01v96
and a ada8200. works very fine and no problems at all. everything stay in sync without any hassle.
Now i wanted to integrate a second ada8200 for an electronic drum set and thought it would be elegant
if i could switch with the touch of a button between the converters from the acoustic drumset (01v96)
and the electronic kit (ada8200) that is why i bought the friendchip.
But the friendchip dmx12 digital patchbay is making problems. I dont think it will matter if the RME is set to master or slave. If i introduce the Friendchip into a stable sync setup, its not stable any more and i adapt the idea of dumping the friendchip and also skip the idea of a relativley cheap solution ala adat patchbay/router.

Can some offical RME support member confirm any third party device (adat patchbay/routr) that is capable of stable syncing a raydat card? Is there a clear technical parameter "like digital latency"  that shows unmistakably if a device will avoid proper sync or not, i hate to buy things just to find out they did not work!

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
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  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,859

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

Have you tried routing everything through the friendchip so everything has the same delay if that is the cause? Even routing only the 02R through it too as a master will show if it is now working correctly.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,847

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

Of course it matters whether the card is set as master or slave, otherwise I would not ask. If it's set as master, it can not sync to an incoming ADAT or other signal (unless there is a connection going back as well that syncs the external device).

The card will sync to any ADAT source, there is no specific "parameter" or requirement.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Registered: 2018-03-30
  • Posts: 27

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

RME Support wrote:

Of course it matters whether the card is set as master or slave

i totally understand that but i wanted to made clear that the system setup is running perfectly UNTIL i put the friendchip in between the chain.

  • Registered: 2018-03-30
  • Posts: 27

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

vinark wrote:

Have you tried routing everything through the friendchip so everything has the same delay if that is the cause? Even routing only the 02R through it too as a master will show if it is now working correctly.

thats an interesting thought. no i did not, do you think that makes sense? I mean that the card compares the delay between different inputs? all i had done is to put the friendchip between the 01v96 and the raydat. all other external converters did stay in sync, but the desired on toggled between sync and lock.

thanks for everybody trying to help me out, i very appreciate it.

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,859

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

docdoghouse wrote:
vinark wrote:

Have you tried routing everything through the friendchip so everything has the same delay if that is the cause? Even routing only the 02R through it too as a master will show if it is now working correctly.

do you think that makes sense? I mean that the card compares the delay between different inputs? .

Yes it is the only thing that makes sense apart from a malfunction or being out of spec (design flaw). If the frienchip causes a delay and the rest is not delayed I would expect this behaviour. It would then be always needed to run everything through it or clock from devices behind the friendchip.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

16 Reply by docdoghouse (edited by docdoghouse 2018-06-12 18:57:31)

  • Registered: 2018-03-30
  • Posts: 27

Re: sync check toggles between sync and lock ?

IT WORKS.
just for the retrieval of FRIENDCHIPS honour.
I am sorry if my post led to a negative reputation of the Friendchip DMX Produkt line in any way.
Its impossible for me to reconstruct the faulty setup. It surely has to do with my confusion about master or slave status while testing. (normally Raydat is master and everything else Slave but if i am using my 02R96 without the DAW i have to switch the 02R to Master)
So...now i connected everything to the friendchip (but thats not necessary) and sync check shows stable "sync".
Thanks for evrybody trying to help me out and thanks to FRIENDCHIP Leader Mr. bergler is a very friendly, competent and helpful
man.