• ramses
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Topic: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

Bought my 1st 2 SACDs (Diana Krall).
Oppo is connected via SPDIF to ADI-2 DAC.
Expectation, gread SACD sound via ADI-2 DAC.

Simply disappointing, only get sound / lock when settings on the Oppo the SACD Priority to CD-Mode.

Further reading the Oppo handbook I find this information:

Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital outputs.
To listen to SACD, please use the HDMI or analogue audio connections.

a) when using HDMI output to my Panasonic Plasma TV, no sound
b) using the analog outputs of the Oppo is not the desired solution, as I want the D/A conversion quality of the ADI-2 DAC.

If I see it correctly, then this is one more example how ill and paranoid Audio Industry is.
I bought the damn SACD and it costed already more than a usual CD..
And now what a disappointment that SACD brings me nothing, absolutely NOTHING for my setup.

Anything overlooked ? Any more comments / experiences ? Are there workaround ?

I am about to send the 2 SACDs back. Sorry, this is not the right way in terms of customer satisfaction.
Maybe SACD didnt become popular for exactly this reason.
Overengineered for "Security / Profit" .. nothing left for customer satisfaction.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • mitr
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

ramses wrote:

Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital outputs.
To listen to SACD, please use the HDMI or analogue audio connections.

Industry-standard.  Offically, it is said that S/PDIF cannot support the bandwidth of DSD but it can.

3 Reply by lewis71980 (edited by lewis71980 2018-05-01 16:55:51)

  • Registered: 2008-03-06
  • Posts: 161

Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

Hi Ramses

From a quick google. For the OPPO 203 there is a MOD called the Vanity203HD

The Vanity203HD is an upgrade module that can simply replace the analogue output circuit board of the OPPO UDP-203 with full resolution digital outputs. It follows the successful range of Vanity HD modules for the OPPO BDP-93 and BDP-103 and adds a few new features. The module enables the user to turn the player into an eight-channel digital audio transport which supports all audio formats including Blu-Ray, SACD and DVD-A.



http://www.jvbdigital.nl/jvb.asp?cur=2& … ;title=974

  • Ulrich
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

Hmm, should be obvious that SPDIF (very old PCM audio interface) doesn't handle DSD data (MUCH more data than PCM). It's interesting that the RME can handle DSD (via USB, provided by a computer, I guess).

SACD was invented (alomost 20 years ago!)  for connecting it via analogue interface to other hifi equipment. For me it is not clear what HDMI does with DSD. Does anybody here know any details about such a transmission?

5 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

SPDIF at 176.4 kHz is enough data bandwidth to transmit DSD64. Which not only we, but anybody supporting DSD does.

Regarding HDMI: my info is a bit outdated:

http://www.nutsvolts.com/uploads/magazi … 3/HDTV.pdf

HDMI  also includes   support   for   up   to   eight  channels   of   uncompressed   digital audio at a 192 kHz sample rate with 24 bits/sample, as well as compressed streams such as Dolby Digital, or DTS. HDMI  also  supports  one-bit  audio, such as that used on Super Audio CDs at rates up to 11.3 MHz. With version 1.3, HDMI now also supports lossless compressed  streams  such  as  Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • Ulrich
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

Thanks, MC, for this information, quite interesting.

  • mitr
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

MC wrote:

SPDIF at 176.4 kHz is enough data bandwidth to transmit DSD64. Which not only we, but anybody supporting DSD does.

Regarding HDMI: my info is a bit outdated:

http://www.nutsvolts.com/uploads/magazi … 3/HDTV.pdf

HDMI  also includes   support   for   up   to   eight  channels   of   uncompressed   digital audio at a 192 kHz sample rate with 24 bits/sample, as well as compressed streams such as Dolby Digital, or DTS. HDMI  also  supports  one-bit  audio, such as that used on Super Audio CDs at rates up to 11.3 MHz. With version 1.3, HDMI now also supports lossless compressed  streams  such  as  Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.

There is, also, a quasi-standard format called DoP (DSD over PCM) which puts the stereo DSD signal in a PCM-looking package so that it can be sent over coax.  Not all devices support it.  https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/support/what-i … -over-pcm/

8 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

You could have simply linked to the ADI-2 Pro manual... wink

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • mitr
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

MC wrote:

You could have simply linked to the ADI-2 Pro manual... wink

Indeed, I would have but I had not I read it.

  • cyrano
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

You should also note that while the HDMI standard includes 8 channel audio, hardly any real life equipment does...

You'd have to try pro equipment from fi Black Magic Design and a few others to find it. But check with the manufacturer first.

It's a Sony story, the sequel, called "Return of the copybit killer" big_smile

MB Pro - 2 X FireFace 400, FF800 & DigiFace USB
ADAT gear: Korg, Behri, Fostex, Alesis...

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11 Reply by pschelbert (edited by pschelbert 2018-05-19 19:22:42)

  • From: Switzerland, Zürich
  • Registered: 2013-02-20
  • Posts: 193

Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

ramses wrote:

Bought my 1st 2 SACDs (Diana Krall).
Oppo is connected via SPDIF to ADI-2 DAC.
Expectation, gread SACD sound via ADI-2 DAC.

Simply disappointing, only get sound / lock when settings on the Oppo the SACD Priority to CD-Mode.

Further reading the Oppo handbook I find this information:

Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital outputs.
To listen to SACD, please use the HDMI or analogue audio connections.

a) when using HDMI output to my Panasonic Plasma TV, no sound
b) using the analog outputs of the Oppo is not the desired solution, as I want the D/A conversion quality of the ADI-2 DAC.

If I see it correctly, then this is one more example how ill and paranoid Audio Industry is.
I bought the damn SACD and it costed already more than a usual CD..
And now what a disappointment that SACD brings me nothing, absolutely NOTHING for my setup.

Anything overlooked ? Any more comments / experiences ? Are there workaround ?

I am about to send the 2 SACDs back. Sorry, this is not the right way in terms of customer satisfaction.
Maybe SACD didnt become popular for exactly this reason.
Overengineered for "Security / Profit" .. nothing left for customer satisfaction.


Hi

SACD is an old outdatet format. Has not the quality of PCM, however its a bit better then CD standard (44.1k, 16Bit)

Workaround:
Rip the SACD to flac. Then play it via a software player.
Just: better avoid SACD at all is my experience.

Pete

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  • Registered: 2007-04-10
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

pschelbert wrote:

SACD is an old outdatet format. Has not the quality of PCM, however its a bit better then CD standard (44.1k, 16Bit)

That's not quite correct. PCM as a format is even older, so "outdated" is not really a criterion. DSD may not be better than PCM in principle, but it's not inherently inferior, either.

Workaround:
Rip the SACD to flac.

You can't really do so, for the same reason that you don't get a digital output signal from a player, namely copy protection.

The fact that SACD players do not provide a full-format digital output is not new at all. Even most, if not all DVD-Audio players will deliver 96 or 192k material over the analog outputs only. The SPDIF output will usually be downsampled to 48k...

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

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  • mitr
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

pschelbert wrote:

Rip the SACD to flac. Then play it via a software player.
Pete

RME Support wrote:

You can't really do so, for the same reason that you don't get a digital output signal from a player, namely copy protection.

Yes, you can and many of us have been doing it for years.  There are a couple of ways depending on your OS and the particular disc player used; only certain ones are capable of it.  I have ripped thousands of them.

See: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/foru … rchlight=1

  • ramses
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

Thanks for the links, but my only intention is to playback the Bluray Disks and performing the D/A conversion with the ADI-2 DAC. I don't want any overhead of RIPPing stuff from SACDs.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

15 Reply by mitr (edited by mitr 2018-05-23 22:33:43)

  • mitr
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

ramses wrote:

Thanks for the links, but my only intention is to playback the Bluray Disks and performing the D/A conversion with the ADI-2 DAC.

Understood.  My post was in direct response to the statements I quoted.

  • From: Switzerland, Zürich
  • Registered: 2013-02-20
  • Posts: 193

Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

if you want to just play the BlueRay disc then you just put it in a BlueRay player. No need for ADI2 then.
Then you have to live with the quality (or non quality) of the players DAC.

Peter

  • Registered: 2008-03-06
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Re: Frustration about SACD standards (Oppo UDP 203 -> ADI-2 DAC)

Looks like there is an upcoming standard called HDMI 2.1 eARC which supports a multitude of standards. https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/  maybe future DAC's will have these kind of inputs?

eARC can support PCM, DSD and compressed home theater audio formats such as MP3, DTS:X and Dolby Atmos. eARC can transmit 37 mbits/second of audio, which works out to 8-channel, 24-bit, 192 kHz uncompressed PCM or 32-channel, 8-bit, 48 kHz uncompressed audio.