1 (edited by HIFI 2018-04-09 09:12:32)

Topic: WASAPI why only 44.1

Good day.
Support ADI2 DAC / PRO when installing in JRiver/ROON-WASAPI driver it is possible to play only the frequency 44.1 since other frequencies are not reproduced and not supported.
Actually why the device does not support WASAPI driver on WIN10?

2

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Please let us start with correct statements. The driver does support Wasapi in Windows 10. But the driver lacks the capability to let applications change the sample rate, so you have to manually do this in the driver's Settings dialog. This is caused by the driver being capable of multi-channel, multi-client WDM/ASIO operation as well as multi-interface usage. The driver was not designed and built to support just two channels of playback.

And this will not change. Please use ASIO for automatic sample rate changes.

ASIO also has the advantage to support sample rates above 384 kHz, not screwing up Windows' Audio Enhancements above 192 kHz sample rate, and not needing workarounds to support higher DSD rates by packing more data into half the sample rate (768 kHz = DSD256).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Thank you!

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

MC wrote:

Please let us start with correct statements. The driver does support Wasapi in Windows 10. But the driver lacks the capability to let applications change the sample rate, so you have to manually do this in the driver's Settings dialog. This is caused by the driver being capable of multi-channel, multi-client WDM/ASIO operation as well as multi-interface usage. The driver was not designed and built to support just two channels of playback.

And this will not change. Please use ASIO for automatic sample rate changes.

ASIO also has the advantage to support sample rates above 384 kHz, not screwing up Windows' Audio Enhancements above 192 kHz sample rate, and not needing workarounds to support higher DSD rates by packing more data into half the sample rate (768 kHz = DSD256).

Found this thread while trying to figure out how to make my sample rate on the ADI2 while using Windows match the sample rate of the source material ... how do I "use ASIO for automatic sample rate changes?"

Thanks very much

5

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

By using a software that supports ASIO. Otherwise, as you have the DAC, the topics Class Compliant and automatic sample rate change have been discussed and explained in great detail:

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 81#p135881

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27280

The current manual online also had been updated with these infos:

https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/adi2dac_e.pdf

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

MC wrote:

By using a software that supports ASIO. Otherwise, as you have the DAC, the topics Class Compliant and automatic sample rate change have been discussed and explained in great detail:
...

Dear MC, I need the automatic sample rate, but have to use Windows Server 2016 which does not include "usbaudio2" driver, while technically this OS is one of Win10 versions. Is there any way to download and install the USB Audio 2.0 Class Compliant driver to WS2016? I tried to pull the files from a donor Win10, it did not work. Other consumer/audiophile vendors provide such driver.

7 (edited by Argon 2019-06-21 20:44:45)

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Did some test on my Win10 laptop. ADI-2 DAC, latest firmware. Usbaudio2 driver installed automatically.

Playing a 44 kHz song on foobar thru DirectSound -- works
Now playing the same song thru WASAPI -- works
Now changing song to 96 kHz 24 bit - WASAPI -- format unsupported
Now changing to DirectSound - Unrecoverable error
Now changing song to 44 kHz - unrecovarable error
Trying to play any sound from the OS Control Panel -> Test -- failed to play test tone
Restart ADI2 - still fails
Restarted the OS -- still fails
I open the device setting, i see current format is 32 BIT 48 KHz -- and it is unable to play a test tone
I press Restore Defaults, test tone starts working
DirectSound starts playing
WASAPI is not working, because all supported frequencies reported to the system are 32BIT/44 and 32BIT/48
Reinstalling the driver, the supported frequencies are still 32 bit. WASAPI does not work
Changing WASAPI settings to output in 32 bit format, playing 44k song -- WORKS
Playing 96k song - distortions!
Changing WASAPI output from Event to Push -- no distortion

Could you please do something or explain what I do wrong? I just want my WASAPI output to work flawlessly in the same ways as my other chinese amanero-based DACs. Is ADI-2 DAC too professional to just work, and report all available frequencies/bit depths to the OS?

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

I use jriver + ADI-2 DAC myself, had the same problem which is caused by the presence of the ASIO driver.

You must remove the RME ASIO driver completely, i.e. uninstall and then remove the ADI-2 from device manager (Gerätemanager). Do a search for new devices thereafter and everything will be ok using ASIO. If you pm me your email I weill send you screenshots of jriver settings, though it is difficult to go wrong there.

9

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Argon wrote:

Playing a 44 kHz song on foobar thru DirectSound -- works
Changing WASAPI settings to output in 32 bit format, playing 44k song -- WORKS
Playing 96k song - distortions!
Changing WASAPI output from Event to Push -- no distortion

Could you please do something or explain what I do wrong? I just want my WASAPI output to work flawlessly in the same ways as my other chinese amanero-based DACs.

So you have a DAC that plays WASAPI Event in Foobar at other sample rates than 44.1 kHz with Windows own drivers? I haven't. Most of these use XMOS and such a unit I tested and it failed the same way as ours, which most probably means that is a bug in Foobar. Other software worked correctly in that mode with Windows own drivers.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

joachim.herbert wrote:

I use jriver + ADI-2 DAC myself, had the same problem which is caused by the presence of the ASIO driver.

You must remove the RME ASIO driver completely, i.e. uninstall and then remove the ADI-2 from device manager (Gerätemanager). Do a search for new devices thereafter and everything will be ok using ASIO. If you pm me your email I weill send you screenshots of jriver settings, though it is difficult to go wrong there.

Thanks for thoughts, however, it was a fresh Win10 laptop without any RME drivers.

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Argon wrote:

Thanks for thoughts, however, it was a fresh Win10 laptop without any RME drivers.

I was referring to the op by @hifi ;-)

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

MC wrote:
Argon wrote:

Playing a 44 kHz song on foobar thru DirectSound -- works
Changing WASAPI settings to output in 32 bit format, playing 44k song -- WORKS
Playing 96k song - distortions!
Changing WASAPI output from Event to Push -- no distortion

Could you please do something or explain what I do wrong? I just want my WASAPI output to work flawlessly in the same ways as my other chinese amanero-based DACs.

So you have a DAC that plays WASAPI Event in Foobar at other sample rates than 44.1 kHz with Windows own drivers? I haven't. Most of these use XMOS and such a unit I tested and it failed the same way as ours, which most probably means that is a bug in Foobar. Other software worked correctly in that mode with Windows own drivers.

Just checked my other DAC is Amanero based, there are thousands of these made in China. When using Amanero's driver, there is no distortion on any frequency / bit depth when playing thru WASAPI Event. When playing with the same settings with standard windows diriver, there is a distortion on freqs more than 44k.

Another notice is that ADI-2 DAC while using Windows Driver occasionally gots stuck on some freq and it cannot be changed in Windows "default frequency dialog", while my other DAC with the same Windows driver does not have such behavior.

I really appreciate the ADI-2 DAC hardware, however dealing with its software 'features' like no automatic freq with RME driver and strange glitches with Windows driver are not enjoying.

13

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Argon wrote:
MC wrote:

So you have a DAC that plays WASAPI Event in Foobar at other sample rates than 44.1 kHz with Windows own drivers? I haven't. Most of these use XMOS and such a unit I tested and it failed the same way as ours, which most probably means that is a bug in Foobar. Other software worked correctly in that mode with Windows own drivers.

Just checked my other DAC is Amanero based, there are thousands of these made in China. When using Amanero's driver.

This was about Windows own driver, not additional ones, so the ADI-2 DAC works correctly.

Argon wrote:

Another notice is that ADI-2 DAC while using Windows Driver occasionally gots stuck on some freq and it cannot be changed in Windows "default frequency dialog", while my other DAC with the same Windows driver does not have such behavior..

ASIO will block changing the WDM sample rate. The MADIface Series driver is very matured and works as expected. It will not change. If you want to enjoy the ADI use ASIO with RME's driver, or WDM/WASAPI with Windows own driver together with software that works.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Argon wrote:
MC wrote:

By using a software that supports ASIO.
...

Dear MC, I need the automatic sample rate, but have to use Windows Server 2016 which does not include "usbaudio2" driver, while technically this OS is one of Win10 versions. Is there any way to download and install the USB Audio 2.0 Class Compliant driver to WS2016? I tried to pull the files from a donor Win10, it did not work. Other consumer/audiophile vendors provide such driver.


Hi Argon. I think I have a solution for you for WS2016 involving ASIO as suggested by MC.

You can install the RME driver (which includes the ASIO driver). Then you can make any software 'support' ASIO by using Hi-Fi CABLE & ASIO Bridge ( download link halfway down this page https://www.vb-audio.com/Cable/index.htm ) . Then you select ASIO MADIface USB as the ASIO Device in the the VB-Audio ASIO Bridge / Hi-Fi Cable Control Panel. Then in whatever player software you are using (Tidal, etc.) you select the Hi-Fi Cable Input device as the audio device with exclusive/WASAPI mode.

This should also work on your Windows 10 laptop. It is working for me in Windows 10.


Regarding your other posts about Usbaudio2 driver, I too am having weird behaviour with the ADI2-DAC in Windows 10 with the Usbaudio2 driver. I'll post about it later.

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

MC wrote:
Argon wrote:

Another notice is that ADI-2 DAC while using Windows Driver occasionally gots stuck on some freq and it cannot be changed in Windows "default frequency dialog", while my other DAC with the same Windows driver does not have such behavior..

ASIO will block changing the WDM sample rate. The MADIface Series driver is very matured and works as expected. It will not change. If you want to enjoy the ADI use ASIO with RME's driver, or WDM/WASAPI with Windows own driver together with software that works.

As said, i was using Windows standard driver (not RME) which has no ASIO, and the sample rate is blocked for the system sometimes when nothing is playing. It means everything in the system audio (including youtube!) is resampled to the sample rate which was played last thru WASAPI. I would prefer if ADI-2 DAC (when using standard windows driver) would report all the supported sample rates/bit depths to the system and not reduce or block this list for some reasons.

I'm enjoying the device with RME driver and ASIO. At the same time, I would love to get a predictable behavior when I connect the device to other laptops and use the standard USB Audio 2 class driver. I would not expect that if this device was not marketed for Audiophiles... Not all applications support ASIO unfortunately...

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Loapher wrote:

...You can install the RME driver (which includes the ASIO driver). Then you can make any software 'support' ASIO by using Hi-Fi CABLE & ASIO Bridge...

Thank you for an interesting idea. I also want to try Sonarworks true-fi and already scared imagining how it could behave with ADI-2 driver which does not support automatic sample rate except ASIO mode... Will see...

Loapher wrote:

Regarding your other posts about Usbaudio2 driver, I too am having weird behaviour with the ADI2-DAC in Windows 10 with the Usbaudio2 driver. I'll post about it later.

I'm sure RME devs will appreciate your info. In software industry you cannot underestimate the value of constructive user feedback and consistent reproduction steps.

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Another option would be to use JRiver Media Center which can basically do the same thing as the Hi-Fi CABLE & ASIO Bridge software i.e. route player audio to the JRiver Virtual WDM driver and then route the audio in JRiver to the ASIO MADIface USB driver. You can also set JRiver to output to the DAC in WASAPI mode when using UAC2. Most of the time, for me, JRiver also seems to be able to magically output any sample rate to the DAC when using UAC2 even if those sample rates aren't showing in the Windows Sound Control Panel.

I was routing Tidal through JRiver but the sound would glitch when changing tracks in Tidal so I switched to using ASIO Bridge.

That True-Fi software looks interesting. I was going to suggest you could route the True-Fi output to ASIO Bridge or JRiver (then ASIO) as suggested above but I tried it and the sound was all garbled.

I tried Tidal running through True-Fi outputting to the DAC with UAC2 (when I could get all the sample rates working) and optical spdif but exclusive mode wouldn't work (no sample rate changes). True-Fi did do sample rate changes when playing to it from or through JRiver. So maybe there is some peculiarity in how Tidal handles exclusive mode. I'm thinking for exclusive mode Tidal might need an output device/driver that supports the exact sample rate AND bitrate of the source music whereas JRiver can modify the source bitrate to match a bitrate supported by the output device/driver.

18 (edited by Loapher 2019-06-24 07:10:26)

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Here are the results of my troubleshooting using the ADI-2 DAC and Windows 10 with the Windows UAC2 driver.

I emailed RME support about this recently but since this thread is active and I've done some more troubleshooting since then I thought I would post here.

When I refer to the 'sound control panel' below, I mean the menu that you navigate to by going to Control Panel -> Hardware and Sound -> Sound -> selecting the ADI-2 DAC in the Playback panel -> clicking on Properties -> clicking on the Advanced tab

PC 1 (HP N36L running Windows 10 Pro):

- using Win10 version 1803 - sound control panel shows eight 32 bit sample rates ranging from 44.1 kHz to 384 kHz.

- clean install to version 1809 - same result as version 1803

- clean install to version 1903 - sound control panel shows 44.1 kHz and 48kHz (both 32 bit). Playing a test sound with 44.1kHz works but playing a test sound with 48kHz does not work and Windows then removes 48kHz as an option

(- Win 10 version 1903 using a DAC with Amanero USB and Windows UAC2 drivers  - sound control panel shows eight 32 bit sample rates ranging from 44.1 kHz to 384 kHz.)

PC 2 (HP Spectre X2 running Windows 10 Home):

- using Win10 version 1803 - same as PC 1 with 1803

- upgrade to Win10 version 1903 - sound control panel only ever showed 32 bit 44.1kHz

(-  Win 10 version 1903 using a DAC with Amanero USB and Windows UAC 2 drivers - same as PC 1 using the Amanero USB DAC)

PC 3 (Computer using a z390 chipset motherboard running Windows 10 Pro):

- Windows 10 version 1903 - same as PC 1 using version 1903

- downgrade to Win 10 version 1809 - same as PC 1 using version 1903

(-  Win 10 version 1903 using a DAC with Amanero USB and Windows UAC 2 drivers - same as PC 1 using the Amanero USB DAC)


I did some more playing around with PC 3 and the ADI-2 DAC. One odd thing I found is that if I play an 88.2 kHz file in JRiver Media Center in WASAPI mode it works and the sample rate does show 88.2 kHz on the DAC. But more oddly, after doing that, if I go in to the sound control panel it then shows all eight 32 bit sample rates ranging from 44.1 kHz to 384 kHz (which all work with the test sound). But then if I turn the DAC off and on again the sound control panel goes back to only showing 32 bit 44.1kHz.

Given the behaviour of the Amanero USB DAC and JRiver described above, I'd like to suggest there is something flakey with how the ADI-2 DAC works with Windows 10 UAC2 at least in version 1903.

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Great investigation! Thank you very much.

20

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Thanks from me as well! So it looks like MS screwed 1903 (no surprise), and we have to find out if it will stay this way (which means we have to find a fix) or will be fixed by MS later on. But first I will verify your findings on a 'non-RME' machine with 1903.

The fact that JRiver can make it work until reboot strongly points to MS, though, because our hardware doesn't change (it's not dynamically changing its properties).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

21

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

I am on Windows 1903 Build 18362.175 now. And I was not able to see the limited sample rate dialog. Playing the test tone in the Speakers Properties - Advanced works with all sample rates. Even after reboot, Sleep mode in-between, or just rebooting the ADI-2 DAC.

Driver used is MS 10.0.18362.1, dated 3/18/2019.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

MC wrote:

But the driver lacks the capability to let applications change the sample rate, so you have to manually do this in the driver's Settings dialog. This is caused by the driver being capable of multi-channel, multi-client WDM/ASIO operation as well as multi-interface usage. The driver was not designed and built to support just two channels of playback.

And this will not change. Please use ASIO for automatic sample rate changes.

Is this why several apps can mix into a stream even Exclusive mode is used?

Even I get sample rate switch when using VB-Audio driver on Tidal, or ASIO (with DSD) on Foobar, im not sure if drivers are doing re-sampling: I play 96k song in tidal/foobat, Win plays its OS sounds, they all mix and I can hear both - what and how does that happen, was my tidal/foobar audio stream mixed with OS sounds and resampled?

And WDM only playback on Win10 1903 is not working at all for me, I need MADIface.

Can we vote for special 2 channel only playback driver mode optimized for HIFI usage? Most audiophiles do not need multi client and multi channel capabilities, just a bit perfect (no up/down sampling) and sample rate change capability? Pretty please:)?

~~ sound sommelier ~~

23

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

What you describe is a not understood setup, and not a need to write a new driver. When you use ASIO the OS will (in your case) upsample OS sounds and play them. Has nothing to do with 'Exclusive' WDM mode as you are using ASIO.

If you don't want that to happen disable system sounds, or use a different soundcard as standard playback device (typically the mobo's one). This all requires a few mouse clicks only, and is not different with other DACs.

> And WDM only playback on Win10 1903 is not working at all for me

Then you need to find the error, not a new driver.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

MC wrote:

I am on Windows 1903 Build 18362.175 now. And I was not able to see the limited sample rate dialog. Playing the test tone in the Speakers Properties - Advanced works with all sample rates. Even after reboot, Sleep mode in-between, or just rebooting the ADI-2 DAC.

Driver used is MS 10.0.18362.1, dated 3/18/2019.


I am on the same Windows build and the same driver gets loaded for both the ADI-2 DAC and the Amanero USB DAC.

Here are some screenshots just so you don't think I'm trying to perpetrate some bizarre ruse:
https://imgur.com/a/DKPvpbU

Picture 1 shows all those driver/OS details and the Default Format dialog greyed out.

Picture 2 shows the JRiver behaviour I described. 88.2kHz file playing even though only 44.1kHz is available in Default Format

Picture 3 shows that you can close the Properties menu while that same song is still playing, open the Properties menu again and all the sample rates are now shown.

Picture 4 shows that this behaviour with JRiver cannot be reliably produced. Sometimes (and I can't discern what conditions have changed) JRiver just complains that 88.2kHz is not a supported format.

I am stumped. If you think there is something else I can check (event logs?) please let me know. But, if no one else is experiencing this issue, it is probably not worth pursuing for me personally. Now that I've discovered Tidal doesn't appear to do exclusive mode if the only rate supported by the driver is 32 bit (which is all UAC2 seems to provide?), I wouldn't use UAC2 even if it was working properly. I'll stick with using the optical out of my motherboard or the ASIO Bridge solution mentioned above to get the 16 bit and 24 bit rates available that Tidal needs.

Thanks for looking in to it, anyway.

25

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Pic 1. Greyed out only happens on my system when I play the test sound. Neither Windows Media Player nor JRiver WASAPI cause that. So here is already the first clue that something is wrong on your systems.

Pic 2. The dialog does not update when using whatever sample rate externally, it stays on the last one (MS...). But on my system I can still open the drop down list and see all sample rates.

Pic 3. As said, no extra action necessary.

Pic 4. The same will happen if you play the test sound while JRiver plays something. In your case it looks like you have whatever software accessing and blocking the playback engine already.

BTW, I don't have a Software Device Media Room Video on my computer.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Thanks for that.

Pic 1. In that example, the dialog is always greyed out whether there is anything playing or not because there is nothing else to select in that drop down box.

Pic 4. As far as I can tell, the conditions in this example are exactly the same as for pic 1 i.e. there is nothing else playing when I try to play the song in JRiver. So there shouldn't be anything blocking the playback engine.

I guess there must be some other software difference that I don't know how to ascertain in my 3 Win10 systems that is stuffing things up. My ADI-2 DAC works fine on my MacBook without RME drivers with the latest OS updates so I don't think there is something wrong with my particular unit.

(The Media Room Video device is just the name I gave to the Chromecast connected to the TV in another room. I don't know why it shows up in that PC's device manager.)

Anyway, please don't spend any more time on this issue on my account. Given I don't intend to use UAC2 in Windows any more, it is all a bit academic.

27 (edited by jamieskella 2019-12-08 02:16:11)

Re: WASAPI why only 44.1

Loapher wrote:

Hi Argon. I think I have a solution for you for WS2016 involving ASIO as suggested by MC.

You can install the RME driver (which includes the ASIO driver). Then you can make any software 'support' ASIO by using Hi-Fi CABLE & ASIO Bridge ( download link halfway down this page https://www.vb-audio.com/Cable/index.htm ) . Then you select ASIO MADIface USB as the ASIO Device in the the VB-Audio ASIO Bridge / Hi-Fi Cable Control Panel. Then in whatever player software you are using (Tidal, etc.) you select the Hi-Fi Cable Input device as the audio device with exclusive/WASAPI mode.

I can confirm this works - the sample rates of songs played through Tidal are now automatically matched on my ADI-2 DAC using this method.

It's a work around I wish I didn't need to use. Would appreciate a firmware variant that would report 16bit and 24bit options to Windows, as per many other DACs, which would enable Tidal to automatically set sample rate. Currently, only 32bit sample rates are seen in the device properties, which is unlike most other DACs (which work with Tidal).