1 Topic by 9xSound (edited by 9xSound 2019-02-09 07:43:00)

  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Topic: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

I am running a FF802 as my primary interface and I have a FF800 connected (slaved) to it via ADAT. (Running Cubase 8.5 as well on a PC.) The phantom power settings for the 802 are easy enough to change with a click. However, not the 800. I cannot find the Settings window to change the settings in the 800, which I believe is due to the 800 being slaved to the 802. After a lot of reading, I believe I could reach the Settings window for the 800 by taking the following steps:

1. Disconnect the USB cable from the 802 that connects to my computer, leaving the ADAT cables in place.
2. Run the USB cable directly to the 800, and then turn it on (but leaving the 802 powered down). At this point, I should be able to access the 800's Settings window. (Yes?)
3. At this point, I would guess that I could make the changes I want (disengaging the 48v on two of the 800's channels).
4. Turn off the 800.
5. Reconnect the USB to the 802 and power them both up. Now the changes to the 800 should be saved. (Correct?)

Am I missing any steps? If not, and this looks right, my real question (and real trepidation) is, would doing this pose any risk of losing or disturbing my current ADAT configuration between the 802 and the 800? Or would it all come back up as normal — assuming that I don't touch anything else — while saving the changes to the 800's settings that I want?

Yes, I could just give it a whirl and see what happens. But to be honest, I flat do not know how to configure ADAT. Right now, it all works great and the only issue is that I want to turn off that phantom power on the 800. I don't need it anymore and it's depriving me of two valuable channels. Unfortunately, the company(ies) who sold me the PC and the RMEs went out of business not long ago, so I lost my tech support. (Remind me never to buy "lifetime tech support" ever again.) So I'm just hoping somebody with better configuration knowledge than I have could confirm whether I'm on track.

Thanks!!

2 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,582

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Send us a photo how you connect USB to the FF 800 wink

The Settings dialog that you are looking for will not show up until you installed the FireWire drivers and connect the FF800 to the computer's FireWire port.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

3 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-02-09 10:38:17)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,179

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

And in regards to clocking:
802: clock master (clock source "internal" in it's USB driver settings dialog)
800: clock slave (clock source "ADATx")
Prerequisite: to receive the clock from the 802 on the 800, you need a digital connection originating from the 802 inbound to the 800.
Use ADAT for both directions, then you can route the signals on the 800 to send input ports through ADAT to the 802/DAW.
And then also the opposite direction (also for clock) to be able to send audio channels through ADAT from the 802 to the 800 outgoing ports, i.e. analog out or phones.

For primary monitors / phones I would use the 802 as it has the more modern DA converters and it saves you a few RTL (round trip latency) for monitoring.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Uhh, oh boy. Thank you for the replies.

I'm positive that the firewire drivers are all installed for the 800. I bought the 800 new back in 2005 when I bought my old DAW. In 2016, I upgraded to a whole new PC, and added the 802, telling the company who made the computer what I intended to do. My stereo out pairs are on channels 1&2 and 3&4 on the 802 for monitoring purposes. I use the 802 for everything. The only thing I use the 800 for is the four XLR inputs. (I used to use the 1/4" on input channel 1 on the 800, but it isn't routed today and I don't really need it anyway). At any rate, I have gotten so used to using the USB from the computer to the 802 that I forgot that the 800 doesn't have a USB port and I cannot find my old firewire cable. There's no way I threw it out, but I appear to have done a bang-up job of hiding it. I still have all of my original drivers on CD, but I guess until I can find my old firewire cable or buy one someplace, I'm going to be out of luck.

  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

ramses wrote:

And in regards to clocking:
802: clock master (clock source "internal" in it's USB driver settings dialog)
800: clock slave (clock source "ADATx")
Prerequisite: to receive the clock from the 802 on the 800, you need a digital connection originating from the 802 inbound to the 800.
Use ADAT for both directions, then you can route the signals on the 800 to send input ports through ADAT to the 802/DAW.
And then also the opposite direction (also for clock) to be able to send audio channels through ADAT from the 802 to the 800 outgoing ports, i.e. analog out or phones.

For primary monitors / phones I would use the 802 as it has the more modern DA converters and it saves you a few RTL (round trip latency) for monitoring.

Hi Ramses,

I just re-read your message above and suddenly it made sense. I get it! Thank you! Very helpful info.

6 Reply by 9xSound (edited by 9xSound 2019-02-23 08:16:16)

  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

I'm completely baffled. I need tech help. I have 2 useless channels out of 8 because I can't turn off the blasted phantom power to them.

I took the steps in my initial post. They failed.

I bought a new firewire cable after losing my old one. I connected my 800 to my old DAW computer, both of which I bought new together to try to turn off the phantom power on the two 800 channels that I want to reclaim. However, the Settings icon in the tray on my desktop doesn't launch. Funny, because TotalMix does — although the fader channels aren't there. Just the frame of the Totalmix window. Then I shut everything down and disconnected all of the ADAT cables between the 800 and the 802, to see if that might help. I was now basically back to running just the 800 with my old DAW. Didn't work. If I right click on the Settings icon, a window pops up with Settings and Exit as the options. But it doesn't launch. Turning on/off phantom power used to be so easy.

I don't know what to do at this point. I shouldn't have to install any software - it's already there. I do not know how to troubleshoot what I need to do. Running the 802 as my main interface makes sense. Slaving my old 800 off the 802 via ADAT makes theoretical sense - but the company I bought the DAW from configured it. It was over my head.

I downloaded the 800's drivers and installed them anyway. Nope.

BTW, my upgraded DAW doesn't have a firewire port.  I have to find a way to get into the settings on my old 800. I love the thing, but it sickens me that I can't use those two channels.

Help? Please?

Thank you very much.

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-02-23 08:57:17)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,179

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Maybe your old PC is broken, I would get a FireWire card and put it into the new computer.

It's not required to disconnect cables between FF802 and FF800. The Windows icon for driver settings shows up as soon as the corresponding RME driver recognizes the interface.

Steps:
1. You need to install a FireWire card into your new PC (+).
2. Connect FF800 via FireWire 400 (assuming you use FireWire 400) and
    the FF802 via USB2 to your PC.
3. Install the latest drivers:
    for the FF800: driver_fw_win_3124.zip
    for the FF802: driver_usb_win_1166.zip

(+) Shall your FireWire PCIe Card be broken for some reason, here is a quality FW400 card which can also be used by the FF802: https://www.amazon.de/Exsys-15-06-2257- … s+EX-16415

4. Once both interfaces are recognized properly and the icons for driver settings show up I would recommend to check, whether your recording interfaces need a firmware upgrade. If they have older Firmware then I recommend to upgrade:
Latest firmware version for
- FF800: 2.77
- FF802: 15/9/7/9
If I remember right you can check this either
a) in the driver settings window
b) the firmware upgrade utility will inform you what it found and whether it has a new firmware version.

General tip: to test the Fw400 connection you can also use your FF802, as it supports USB2 and FW400.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Thank you for those directions, Ramses! I definitely have the latest drivers installed. Can't imagine why the FireWire card in my PC would be broken or defective. It has been sitting clean and quiet in my studio undisturbed for the last two years. I will run every test that you suggest.

One thing that seems like I should note is that the tech engineer who configured my system did so remotely, while we talked on the phone. I recall turning the 800 off and back on to retain the settings in its memory. But unless my memory is bad, I could swear that he was able to access the settings on my FF800 via my new PC. I have no idea how he did it.

Anyway, thank you for such a prompt response! I will resolve this or, God help me, take up golf.

  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Well. I'm getting closer. I reached the 800's Settings window. It wasn't the same old settings window that I remembered, but the phantom power options were shown. None were selected for phantom power (PP). I clicked one, and sure enough, it turned the PP on. So I clicked it off. Then I clicked Save to Flash, and turned off the FF800 and the old PC. Disconnected the firewire.

Next, in order, like usual, I booted up the FF802 (master), the FF800 (slave), PC, Cubase 8.5, and viola! Phantom power on channels 7 and 8 of the FF800 is gone. Success.

However, channels 7 and 8 of the FF800, which are routed to Mono In 5 and 6 respectively in Cubase, are mysteriously inactive in Cubase. This is odd because the 800's channels 9 and 10, routed to Mono In 7 and 8 in Cubase, still work fine! Speaking into a mic, the LEDs light up on all four of the 800's, including channels 7 and 8, so I know that all channels on the 800 are functional. In Cubase's Devise Setup, under in I/O ports, it shows ACTIVE for IN | ADAT | 7, 8, 9 and 10. However, OUT | Analog | 7, 8 are INACTIVE, whereas OUT | Analog | 9, 10 are ACTIVE.

Why would channels 7 and 8 go inactive, while 9 and 10 remained active? I can't tell how to activate channels 7 and 8. Clicking on Inactive does nothing. I feel stupid and helpless. Any thoughts on what I need to do? I don't know if it's a TotalMix issue or Cubase.

I can say that the top meters jump in TotalMix when I send a signal into channels 9 and 10 on the 800. Even though the LEDs light up on channels 7 and 8, TotalMix does not react when I send a signal in on those channels.

I just want to get all 8 of my marvelous FF channels back, without the blasted phantom power engaged. Can't be so hard.

Thank you so much for all the help.

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,179

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Which driver are you using in Cubase ? The one for the 800 or the 802 ?
Remember, a DAW can load only one ASIO driver.
We said your 802 will be your main interface so you need to load the ASIO driver of the 802 (USB driver).

You can have two TM FX instances open, one for the 802 and one for the 800.
Between 802 and 800 (ADAT1 port) you have one TOSLINK cable, mainly for clocking, but you can also send audio.
Between 800 and 802 (ADAT1 port) you also have one TOSLINK cable, to transfer up to 8 audio channels @44.1/48 kHz.

Use the TM FX instance of the 800 to route i.e. the 4 Mic and the 1st 4 Analog inputs to ADAT1 1..8 OUT.
The DAW can now access these 8 ports of the 800 through ADAT1 1..8 of the 802.

You can save the workspace in a way that you see the relevant TM FX settings for both interfaces the 800 and 802.
Save the routing in a snapshot.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Thank you for taking the time to help, Ramses. I really appreciate it.

The driver I'm using in Cubase is for the 802, ASIO Fireface USB.

The ADAT cables between the 802 and the 800 are in the same place as before. The 802 sits above the 800 in my rack. They're physically connected like XX (the cables cross over each other):

802 ADAT1 In > 800 ADAT1 Out 
802 ADAT1 Out > 800 ADAT1 In
802 ADAT2 In > 800 ADAT2 Out 
802 ADAT2 Out > 800 ADAT2 In

To the best of my knowledge, my system was configured with the 802's channels 9-12 to Analog In, and Analog 1-4 Out, and the 800 Channels 7-10 ADAT 7-10 In, and Analog 5-8 Out.

In the end, when recording in Cubase, my input channels were 1-8, 1-4 were the 802, and 5-8 were the 800. And they still are, except that input channels 5 and 6 are inactive now. Somebody looking at it could probably say, "Oh, you need to click this single button here, and presto!" I would take a screenshot for you if I knew what to take a screenshot of.

Thank you for your continued help with this! I am deeply grateful, believe me. I love my Firefaces.

12 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-02-23 23:30:49)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,179

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Did you ensure in Cubase (9.5 here) under F4 Audioconnections to enable all channels (busses) in inputs and outputs ?

Then it should be no problem for you to route the channels of 800 through ADAT1.

1. In the TM FX instance of the 800 check whether submix mode is enabled.
Then perform the following to route i.e. the channels Analog 1/2 of the 800 through ADAT1/2 to the 802:
1. click to HW Output ADAT1/2. You see then the routing for this particular output channel (submix)
2. raise the faders of HW inputs Analog1/2 to route these 2 analog stereo channels to

If there is an input signal on the 800 then you will see it
- on the 800 on HW input AN1/2
- on the 800 on HW output ADAT1/2 (remember you just configured this routing)
- on the 802 on HW input ADAT1/2
- in Cubase on the channel for HW input ADAT 1/2

And this "routing" you perform for every ADAT channel on the 800. In short again:
Click to the HW output (=submix) and raise the faders of those HW inputs that you want to send through ADAT.

Take a sheet of paper how you want to route all inputs of the 800 through the 2x8 ADAT channels to the 802.

Check out my TM FX primer here:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … rnal-equi/

And RME Tutorial Videos:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … al-Videos/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

THANK YOU, Ramses! Thank you, so much. I have all of my manuals out, and I'm trying desperately to find the answer. I will watch every video and try every possible approach I can before crawling back here on my knees. I'm positive that this is just a lack of knowledge on my part. My RME gear has always worked beautifully, and I have taken very good care of it.

  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

I'm starting to suspect that the channels are blown, despite the fact that the LEDs light up on channels 7 and 8 when I have mic connected and I'm sending signal in. I've seen the TM FX videos before, so this isn't completely new territory. Everything seems to be configured correctly and consistently with the two operational channels, 9 and 10. I did catch one thing: I had the 800 word clock set to internal. I changed it to ADAT1, but no progress. ASIO is Fireface USB. Channels appear active in Cubase.  Cubase just doesn't seem to be receiving signal and TM FX isn't showing any on those two ADAT channels. ADAT 9 and 10 are A-ok. Weird.

15 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,582

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

This thread is somehow confusing. Channels 1, 7 and 8 of the FF800 have the option to switch between front input and back input (in the Settings dialog, tab 'Analog'). Is that your problem?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

16 Reply by 9xSound (edited by 9xSound 2019-02-24 06:07:41)

  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Hi MC,

Thank you for checking in. I am only talking about the XLR inputs in the front of the FF800. I don't need the 1/4" Channel 1 input in the front. Until three days ago, I had 8 beautiful XLR inputs, 4 on the FF802, and 4 on the FF800. For the last two years, however, Channels 7 and 8 on the FF800 have been stuck with the phantom power turned on. I've never been able to access the FF800's Setting window to disable the phantom power to those channels. A few weeks ago, I decided to do something about it, and after becoming frustrated, I finally asked here.

BTW, the company I bought the PC and FF802 from, ADK, went out of business. Otherwise I would just be going back to them.

My newer PC doesn't have a firewire connection. I'm using USB to the FF802 and ADAT to the FF800. So I uploaded the most recent FF800 drivers to the older PC on which I used to run the FF800 and a 3.1 version of Cubase. After some restarting attempts, which included unplugging and replugging the firewire cable from the FF800 while it and the PC were running, a Settings Window finally came up. Not the old one I used to see. But it had four phantom power boxes, none of which were checked. Note that now, for the first time in two or three years, my FF800 did not have any phantom power lights on. Success. I clicked on the one for Channel 7 to test it, and yes, the phantom light for Channel 7 came on. So I clicked it off again, changing nothing else, and shut it all down, disconnecting the firewire from the FF800. Rebooted my old system, and now the FF800 has no phantom power engaged, hurray! - but Channels 7 and 8 don't work. Channels 9 and 10 are fine. Configurations are all consistent. Cubase shows that Channels 7 and 8 are active, along with 9 and 10 and all of the channels on the 802. If I plug the same mic with the same XLR cable into Channels 7, 8, 9 and 10, testing them one at a time, the green LEDs light up when I speak into the mic on 7 and 8, but no signal is received by Cubase. Whereas, the signal reaches Cubase on Channels 9 and 10.

The fact that the front LEDs of the FF800 on 7 and 8 light up when I send a signal into those channels tells me that the channels aren't burned out. But I'm at a loss for where the signal is getting lost. I see the meters jumping when I'm using Channels 9 and 10, but 7 and 8 are dead in TM FX.

One last note: I confirmed that my current version of Cubase 8.5, has the ASIO on Fireface USB. The clock setting for the FF802 is set to Internal. I went back into the FF800 Settings, after more weird restarting and unplugging business, and found the clock was also set to Internal. I reset it to ADAT1. Didn't help.

Oh the humanity.

17 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,582

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

You should read my post again...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

18 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-02-24 08:39:12)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,179

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Thanks Matthias for your additional support, I didn't rember the special FF800 features.

@9xSound: please read Matthias posting again (post #15) it answers your question in your post #9.
Then please read FF800 handbook chapter 7.2: https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/fface800_e.pdf

The point is that the FF800 ports 1,7,8 need to be configured whether you want to use it on the front, rear or both.

I propose that you setup in the FF800 driver settings dialog:
inputs 1 to "rear" (assumed you want to use analog1 on the back as line input)
inputs 7 and 8 to "front" (assumed you want to use the mic inputs 7 and 8 in the front)

[The handbook tells that there is also a setting, that both (front and rear) is active,
I suggest to configure exactly what you need]

Further proposal, go ahead now with the two computers until you got your FF800 setup as you need
- settings dialog in terms of clock slave, analog settings, which inputs you want to use (front/back), ..
- TM FX routing for stand-alone operation

But for the long run I would add a FW400 or FW800 PCIe card into your new PC, so that you can control both interfaces with one PC.  As I already mentioned, then you can open two instances of TM FX on the same computer: one for the FF800, one for FF802. This enables you to check the settings or change the routing whenever you want. I did it the same for a year when I used an UFX in front of a RayDAT card. It's not required for your setup now to read it, but if you are interested you can take a look: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ME-RayDAT/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

I had no idea! What a waste of words! Lol.

Okay, I'll let you know!

20 Reply by 9xSound (edited by 9xSound 2019-02-24 18:33:39)

  • Registered: 2016-06-11
  • Posts: 23

Re: Changing Phantom Power Setting on FF800 ADAT to FF802

Makes a longish-haired, songwriting, guitar playing, singing to the girls-type of grown man wanna cry. It didn't work. I saw that setting yesterday and ignored it, so I was filled with hope minutes ago. That hope has been dashed in the sink like a leftover drink. I had it set to Front - Rear (which should've worked anyway). I changed it to Front. No luck. No words to describe my disappointment.

Thank you both for hanging in there with me with all the helpful suggestions and advice. I truly appreciate it. You guys really give me confidence in RME's support. Other companies would have bailed long ago. I've been using Firefaces now for some 15 years and I've watched the tutorials and read the manuals at times over the years, enough to be a functioning end user of the gear. This is the first time I've had a problem with a Fireface that I couldn't solve myself.

If the level indicator LEDs on the front did not light up green when I send a signal to those two channels, then I would surmise that the channels are dead. But they do light up green when I talk into a mic! I have to believe that the channels work, and that the problem lies elsewhere, maybe in the output. I've tried to raise the levels in TM FX. But I would think that any configuration changes that attenuated Channels 7 and 8 would have done the same to Channels 9 and 10. Those two are fine. The only difference is that 7 and 8 had phantom power (safely) engaged for over two years, and I finally turned it off.

On the good news front, I may have located the person who originally configured my system and he appears to do hourly tech support. I've reached out to him.

If he determines that the channels are permanently lost, then it will become a matter of "What came in that box?" "That, dearest, is a brand new, bad-ass, latest version, not fewer than four but maybe more XLR inputs interface from RME to run in place of my beloved old FF800, which sadly passed away recently."

Might just be another 802. But we'll see.