• Registered: 2012-09-10
  • Posts: 26

Topic: UFX help

Hi
I am having some trouble with my UFX Fireface and could use an expert diagnosis.
After about an hour into a session the sound starts to deteriorate and gets progressively worse very quickly.
It only happens with Cubase and I can still play wav files through a media player with no distortion.
If I change the buffer size in the UFX the problem is immediately fixed.

I am not an expert with clocking/syncing but i added a Fireface 800 to my rack not long ago for some more inputs/outputs and I connected via adat.
The problem seems to have started since I added the 800 and was experimenting with the sync.
At the moment the clock on the UFX is set to internal and I don't have the 800 turned on very often unless I need the inputs.

I also have a Babyface connected via adat feeding some other speakers but that has worked without problems for over a year with seemingly no need to adjust any of the clocks but like I said I am no expert in the sync department and maybe I have opened a can of worms with my current set up.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hpioyyyavti0y … X.mp4?dl=0

Please watch this video and let me know if I have a serious problem or a user error I can fix at home.
Excuse the shaky camera work while I was trying to use the mouse at the same time..

Thanks!
Rob

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-03-09 08:57:40)

  • ramses
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Re: UFX help

The relevant information in the video is at 0:38, RME driver seetings dialog, where you can see clock source and sync status information of the UFX.

Your UFX is clock master (clock source set to "internal"), that's ok, but in the input status below you see, that no other device is clock synchronized with the UFX, that needs to be fixed.

Symptoms:
> After about an hour into a session the sound starts to deteriorate and gets progressively worse very quickly.
Clocks are not synched
> If I change the buffer size in the UFX the problem is immediately fixed.
I assume this resets something on driver level until clocks drift again over time.

FIX:
1. ensure that you have a digital connection from UFX to FF800/BBF so that FF800/BBF can get a digital signal with clock information in.  I propse to use ADAT for this, i.e.:
- UFX ADAT1 -> FF800
- UFX ADAT2 -> BBF

2a. You need to connect FF800 via Firewire and BBF via USB to your computer.
2b. The required drivers for FF800 and BBF need to be installed.
Otherwise their driver settings dialog will not show up for FF800/BBF.

3. Open the driver settings dialog of FF800 and BBF (different drivers) and set the clock source to the corresponding ADAT input port, to which the UFX is connected to (ADAT, ADAT1, ADAT2, optical .. or how it is called in the pulldown menu).

After that you should see proper synch status and sample rate in the driver settings dialog of every device.

Although the other devices also support standalone mode, I would keep the other recording interfaces cabled to the computer if possible, so that you can still maintain the devices at any time (driver settings dialog, TM FX routing).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 Reply by RobC335 (edited by RobC335 2019-03-09 18:21:20)

  • Registered: 2012-09-10
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Re: UFX help

Thank you Ramses for your input,
I will absolutely take on board what you have told me here.

I have obviously no idea how the sync works.
I mentioned that my FF800 was not powered up mostly and the Babyface sits on a table across the room (via a long adat cable) and only provides for me an output from my UFX  to allow me to access a bigger set of speakers so I can check my bass.

Is it true that the adat output from my UFX to the Babyface without a proper sync  is causing the clock in the UFX to lose time?

I have to add that both the Babyface and the FF800  each have their own computer with Totalmix installed so I can configure
all units separately without confusion.

Thank you for the help.

Rob

4 Reply by RobC335 (edited by RobC335 2019-03-09 18:37:04)

  • Registered: 2012-09-10
  • Posts: 26

Re: UFX help

Hi I just checked both the settings for the Babyface and the FF800.
Both were already set to Optical for clock.
Please see images.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7opwj9ovb646u4x/UFX.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p0tyyamxaiuus … 0.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8zpcy0ozdvwzo … e.jpg?dl=0


When I posted the the video the FF800 was switched off.
Now I have it on and you can see in the UFX image that the sync is on.
I am using both ADAT1 in and out on the UFX for the FF800 connection.

To the Babyface from UFX I am only sending an optical signal not a return on ADAT 2.
Babyface was already set to optical input for the clock.

Would you normally expect to see a sync message in the UFX settings for an optical out?
The Babyface reports a sync.
UFX reports no lock on ADAT2 ??
Is this the issue?

I guess the question I need to ask here is do I need to connect a second optical cable from the Babyface optical out to the the input of ADAT2 on the UFX just so I can get a sync message on the UFX?


The only change you can see on the UFX page is the ADAT 1 now says sync becaue I have the FF800 turned on in the screenshot.

Very confusing I know.
Thanks again for the help.

Rob

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-03-09 20:12:42)

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Re: UFX help

> I guess the question I need to ask here is do I need to connect a second optical cable
> from the Babyface optical out to the the input of ADAT2 on the UFX just so I can get a sync message on the UFX?

Not 100% sure, pls try.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2012-09-10
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Re: UFX help

Ok
Instead of buying a second optical cable for the return on Adat2
I disconnected all the Adat connections to the UFX and restarted.
Clock is internal. Problem remains.
I also cannot get a sound from the UFX in 96k mode.
I was able to a month or so ago when I did a short test project to see if I could hear the difference.
I could not hear any advantages in my setup so I went back to 48.1k.
Now if I start a Cubase project in 96k I get no sound and the playhead stops and then jumps forward, stops and jumps forward again..
I have updated the firmware and software to the latest available.
Is there a reset function on the UFX I could try?

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-03-11 08:35:40)

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Re: UFX help

I checked my UFX+ manual for "lock" and "sync" and also checked with the connection between my UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro FS.

The state "Sync" is only shown on the input side if there is a TOSLINK cable plugged. As you do not have a TOSLINK cable connected between BBF --> UFX, you can not see a sync on port ADAT2 IN on the UFX side. I see nothing wrong in your setup, the devices are properly synched to each other.

In regards to 96k operation

1. 1st check whether Cubase playback works on UFX analog output channels, which are not matter of channel multiplexing.
Simplify the Cubase project, only one stereo track with output to i.e. Analog 1+2
Then in TM FX route Sw Playback Analog 1+2 to monitors and phones (i.e. HW output AN1/2 and/or Phones 9+10)
If this works you can validate that Cubase works at 96k.

2. Next step is to check the routing on all devices (UFX, FF800, BBF) because the amount of ADAT channels halfens with 88.2/96 kHz (channel multiplexing to support the higher clock rate). On the UFX you only have
- ADAT1-4 going to FF800 and
- ADAT5-8 going to BBF
So to say: only 4 channels @96k instead of 8.

For switching between 44.1 and 96k mode you might need different routings.
I would save the routing for each sample frequency in two snapshots called "44.1/48" and "88.2/96"
This you need to perform for each device.
For easier operation you can open 3 TM FX instances, select the different devices, position the TM FX instances in a logical way for you on one or more screens and save snapshot and workspace so that TM FX always opens this way.
Easiest to be done with "Workspace Quick Select".
You could also save / recall the different routings by using two different workspace quick select slots for it.
One where the snapshot for 44.1 is selected, the other for 96k operation. As you like ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 Reply by RobC335 (edited by RobC335 2019-03-12 08:48:16)

  • Registered: 2012-09-10
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Re: UFX help

Thanks Ramses
The 96k thing is not important right now other than I thought it might be another symptom of what is happening in the video.
I have disconnected all optical I/O from the UFX.
I am running in 44.1k for now.
Clock is set to internal.
I am still getting this problem as shown in the video.
I am just about to install a new USB 2 card into the computer and see if that fixes the issue.

Is there anyone else with any ideas of what I need to do to fix this?

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-03-12 08:56:28)

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Re: UFX help

EDIT1: see below

With problem you mean ? The distorted sound in the video ?
This happens immediately when performing playback or when ?

You need now to consequently check, where the distortion comes from.
Cable, USB, Driver (ASIO, WDM), Application (DAW), UFX ...

1st of all: please describe your setup more in detail:
- PC: which CPU, mainboard, OS version (if Windows 10, which version 1809 ?)
- To which USB port do you connect the UFX, port from chipset or ASMedia add-on chip ?
- UFX: firmware and driver version (USB and Firewire driver version which you installed to PC)

Simplify setup, monitors to UFX Analog 1/2 OUT, disconnect the other devices (FF800, BBF) behind ADAT.

//EDIT1: General troubleshooting ideas:
a) to check whether the issue comes from PC you could simply connect an instrument to AN1/2 and route only this signal to AN 1/2 OUT. Then check whether this audio has issues or not to come to a conclusion that the issues comes somewhere from USB/PC, whatever it might be .. to be checked further.
b) as your UFX supports both USB and Firewire and the Firewire driver most likely is already installed on your system for pre-configuring the FF800, you could easily check 1st of all, whether it makes a difference on your system to use Firewire or USB, then you would know at least whether it comes from USB or not.

Then a list of things which should bring you to an idea where the issue comes from:
EDIT1//

- does it make a difference when using another application:
--- play Youtube through RME WDM driver (configure WDM device in driver settings dialog for Analog 1+2 and make it to your standard sound device in
--- play audio using MusicBee: a) Windows Driver b) RME ASIO driver
- change USB cable
- try different USB2 and USB3 ports preferrable from chipset
- perform firmware upgrade on the UFX
- use the latest USB driver
- try to use Fireware
- same issues if you connect the UFX to another PC
- same issues in standalone mode, connecting playback device to ANALOG 1/2 IN and routing it to ANALOG 1/2 OUT ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: UFX help

Hi Ramses
Most of that info is in my previous posts.
The problem happens after about an hour and deteriorates very quickly after it starts.
It only seems to be with Cubase.
I can still play media player files, YouTube etc with no distortion all through the UFX.
I have always configured all the audio through the UFX.

Only Cubase seems affected.
I am installing a USB 2 card right now as I mentioned.
Was using a USB 2 port straight into the computer before.
Three years with zero issues.
The board in an Asus Z97m plus. Windows 10 1409.
Yes all the firmware and software is up to date as I mentioned.
It’s started to distort again as we speak.

I will make another video

  • Registered: 2012-09-10
  • Posts: 26

Re: UFX help

I tried to make another video but I forgot to turn off the ceiling fan above me and the audio is unbearable to listen to.
Unfortunately when I tried to demonstrate that other audio plays without distortion I found that my media player is now not playing back correctly either.
It is playing back at double speed and distorted.
That is a new development.
This time changing the buffer did not correct the problem.
That is new as well.
I will check all cables.
Different computer. Etc

  • Registered: 2012-09-10
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Re: UFX help

Hi Yes that was a good list.
I tried the instrument in to out with no computer.
It is fine, definitely a USB PC issue.
I tried the new USB 2 card.
Same result straight away.
I just went and bought a new USB cable.
Because it is quite a long one I didn’t have a spare that would reach.
I should have done this first.
So far it seems ok.
I will keep my fingers crossed for now.
Thanks for the help man.

13 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-03-12 19:42:16)

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Re: UFX help

You say that you have no issues when playing media player files, YouTube etc
Then USB itself is unlikely to be the root cause, as this also uses USB.

Next thing I would check is to play audio using a player which supports ASIO to validate proper ASIO operation.
You could use MusicBee or foobar2000, configure that these players use ASIO and check.

Or you download another DAW like reaper and check with a simple project, whether reaper works using ASIO driver.

Maybe you can iron out by this, that this is a cubase or plugin related problem.

Alternatively you could also try to connect the UFX via firewire. You still have firewire in your PC and on the UFX!

In regards to Windows 10 version, I do not believe that you have 1409. YYMM (Year/month).
1507 was the 1st release... I assume you have 1809 which is the latest.

If you try firewire you might need the old "Legacy" Firewire Driver: https://www.studio1productions.com/Arti … ire-1.htm.
See also this thread: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=28368

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2012-09-10
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Re: UFX help

In post 11 I mentioned that my media player now wasn’t playing correctly.
I mentioned that was a new behavior I had not seen yet.
The issue starts with ASIO much quicker but eventually the WDM programs start to fail as well I have come to realize.

I think it must be my mother board.
A couple of months ago the old USB cable started to lose USB connectivity on the USB port I used for years.
The blue light on the UFX would flash on and off I changed port and it seemed fine, and then a few months later this bit crushing sound started happening.

The new cable will not connect at all using the old USB port so I used the new USB card I installed and I got a few hours of trouble free performance but I was watching YouTube last night and all of a sudden it started playing back double speed.
I actually do not have FireWire on any PCs.
I have an Intel Nuc with thunderbolt which I used a bunch of adapters to configure the FF800.
So I am no closer to figuring this out..

15 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-03-13 08:02:10)

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Re: UFX help

I would check the UFX on a different computer to be sure, that you need to replace the mainboard.

For the next PC I would choose ATX factor to be able to choose from a wider range of mainboards which have enough expansion sockets and you should plan for a Firewire Card to be able to connect/configure/operate the FF800.

I think the best would be to get a turnkey system for audio so that you get a tested system for audio.

Look to get a mostly SSD based system (they are much cheaper now) and for backup purposes a silent internal and external harddisk as cheap mass storage.

The internal backups can be performed automatically by Windows Task Service because the disk is always there. Use a reliable backup program like Macrium Reflect. Its very fast on restore as it write only the blocks which need to be changed on disk which also reduces the "wear" on SSDs.

For external Backup I recommend you to have USB 3.1 gen 2 (on PC and external case), they both need to support UASP (USB attached SCSI), because this is much faster esp. for the transfer of small files.

I use a combination of Macrium Reflect based disk images for OS / Programs / VSTi and sound libraries on the System SSD and FreeFileSync to mirror my user files in "native format", so that they stay in direct accessible format to be on the safe side.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: UFX help

Yes testing the UFX on a second computer right now.
Just playing YouTube for now. Will install musicbee and test the ASIO performance later.
So far so good.
I actually have a Macrium Reflect image of my main computer I can go back to.
It’s about a year old but everything worked properly back then.
At least that will tell me if it is a hardware or software issue..

17 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-03-13 08:47:49)

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Re: UFX help

BTW a good firewire with working TI chipset was this card here, I also used it in the past with my UFX before I upgraded to UFX+: https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/exs … 75938.html

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: UFX help

Thanks for all your help Ramses
It is definitely my motherboard at fault here.
For some reason all the rear USB 2 ports are faulty.
The pci USB card I installed is also not working well enough for the UFX.
I have tested all my USB ports for speed and on the rear ports and the PCI ports I am only getting 2mbps. (With a flash drive and a movie file)
I tested the front port and I was getting 40mbps.

I plugged the UFX into the front port and have been stable now for about 5 hours.

I can keep dongles/keyboard/mouse/midi controllers on the rear ports for now.
They seem to be coping with that amount of traffic.
I have two spare USB 2 headers on the board so have ordered a couple of rear panels and hopefully they will perform as well as the front USB which are also connected to an internal header.

Many thanks my man!

19 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-03-13 22:14:01)

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Re: UFX help

Many thanks, you're welcome.

You could try a Sonnet Allegro card with FL1100 chip.
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html
Runs very well here with 2 UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro.

Special with this card is the chip set and the drivers which use MSI (message signalled interrupts), which run more efficient under load. The ADI-2 Pro runs perfectly on this USB3 chipset in USB2 compatiility mode.

At least worth a last try/attempt. If it doesnt work, send the card simply back and get either better mainboard or even a turnkey system for audio.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

20 Reply by RobC335 (edited by RobC335 2019-03-14 00:02:45)

  • Registered: 2012-09-10
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Re: UFX help

Thanks for the info
I’ll have to check that card out.
Can you quickly explain the compatibility mode for me?
Is that automatic or something you need to set up?

Rob